Rhalgr the primal?

Three things Ive' been wondering:

1. Considering that Ala Mhigo and its people aren't in good conditions thanks in part to the Garleans and are desperate enough to try anything to get rid of them. Would they resort to trying to summon Rhalgr much like a Primal?

2. Monks belong to the order known as the Fist of Rhalgr, devoting their lives to the deity. Does this mean that we, players in the game going as mnks, are inadvertently giving him power? And if he is indeed summoned as a Primal, would we just boost his power if we tried to fight him as such?

3. Can the other gods of the Twelve Pantheon be summoned as such and drain Aether like any other Primal? Or would they be considered something different and be harmless to the land when summoned?

They did say we'd fight lots of new primals in Stormblood, which has me on high alert. There aren't that many summoned beasts left to invoke. A good number, sure, but eventually the options are going to start wearing thin ... and there are twelve gods just sittin' there doin' nothing, far as we've ever seen.

But NPCs have been warning us that summoning the Twelve would just result in primals for years. Even Louisoix knew it; his plan was to saturate the land with prayers and summon the strength of the gods those prayers were to in order to cast Dalamud back into the heavens ... and even then he planned to die before the ritual was complete so that he wouldn't accidentally summon twelve aether-thirsty deiforms that would drain the land dry. Gaius, too, made such a warning. If the Twelve are real, if they're out there somewhere, summoning probably has a good of chance to reach them as it had for resurrecting Bahamut.

So "Primal Rhalgr" is not off the table, imho; especially after the Ascians tried to get the kids of Little Ala Mhigo to make such a mistake. And let's not forget the big pile of hints that Ramuh is a Sylvan bastardization of belief in Rhalgr. The challenge would be finding a way to tread the line. How do you not lessen the Twelve? How do you make primal Twelve novel, and fun? It's not impossible, but it's a lot to put at stake for a trial flavor unless the main story goes in that direction, as well.

While we cant rule it out, a Rhalgr primal seems to be thematically a little too similar to Ramuh. I mean old guy in robes with beard and who is master of lighting. They even both have a staff as a weapon.

The WoL wouldn't empower a primal of the twelve though. Even if the WoL was a devout worshiper at this point I don't think they would see a Primal in the form of one of the Twelve as actually one of the Twelve. More likely they would see them as the imposter they were.

A primal/eikon is a manifestation of Paragon-inspired dilusions and a crapton of crystals. The 12 would be very good candidates for such acts as already mentioned with the Little Ala Mhigo quests involving such matters. While those who have been under Imperial occupation may have been more inclined to avoid summoning what would now be perceived as a false god prior to the death of the first Garlean emperor would almost be encouraged to summon Rhalger to some twisted extent by the new emperor given his obsession with controlling the Warring Triad. Which I assume is where his son will come into play, given the Yoshida's mentions of said son's ruthless demenaor.

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Originally Posted by Alsbet

2. Monks belong to the order known as the Fist of Rhalgr, devoting their lives to the deity. Does this mean that we, players in the game going as mnks, are inadvertently giving him power? And if he is indeed summoned as a Primal, would we just boost his power if we tried to fight him as such?

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Having your party comp change the battle would be an interesting mechanic. There would be types in party finder for Extreme/Minstral's Ballad, NO MONKS and SIX MONKS ONLY.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

While we cant rule it out, a Rhalgr primal seems to be thematically a little too similar to Ramuh. I mean old guy in robes with beard and who is master of lighting. They even both have a staff as a weapon.

The WoL wouldn't empower a primal of the twelve though. Even if the WoL was a devout worshiper at this point I don't think they would see a Primal in the form of one of the Twelve as actually one of the Twelve. More likely they would see them as the imposter they were.

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It's possible that a 'Rhalgr' Primal would look completely different - warped by the emotions, actions and beliefs of whoever summons him. Plus we know that the Ascians already tried to get the Ala Mhigans to summon him once already. Which makes me believe it to be part of a grand plan.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's possible that a 'Rhalgr' Primal would look completely different - warped by the emotions, actions and beliefs of whoever summons him. Plus we know that the Ascians already tried to get the Ala Mhigans to summon him once already. Which makes me believe it to be part of a grand plan.

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I'm not saying he couldn't be summoned. I'm just saying from a gameplay point of view its probably a bit too similar to Ramuh. We know how the worshipers of Rhalgr see him and its basically Ramuh with a smaller beard and hyur ears. He is even associated with lightning.

I think whatever fights we might see in 6.x they will probably try and chose things that are distinctive.

Rhalgr being so similar to Ramuh may be a plot point. Perhaps they are so similar, they are actually the same?

What happens should the Resistance Summon "Rhalgr" but when we go to confront him find Ramuh and have a lovely conversation with him in front of the now extremely confused Resistance?

WoL: "Oh hi Ramuh"
Resistance: "wtf that's Rhalgr"
Ramuh: "oh hi Champion, how've you been?"
Resistance has hurt themselves in their confusion

I've long suspected that the Twelve were eventually going to get Primals, and with the revelation that Primals are actually beings constructed from the summoners' expectations rather than literal manifestations of the beings they're supposed to be, that pretty much cinched the deal for me. Through the power of Summoning, we can actually interact with the Twelve, after a fashion, while simultaneously preserving the Twelve's godlike mysteries.

As for the Ramuh/Rhalgr thing - personally, I'll be disappointed if primal!Rhalgr turns out to just be Ramuh. I'd like each of the Twelve to be a wholly new encounter. I guess it still could; even if Ramuh IS just Rhalgr as interpreted by the Sylphs, there's no guarantee that Rhalgr as interpreted by the Resistance would be at all similar.

It may be too soon to expect this, however. While the pool of classic summons IS limited, and a few of them have been "used up" by incarnating them as dungeon bosses (Cerberus, Fenrir), there's still a WHOLE lot remaining - and that's assuming that SE doesn't just create new ones from whole cloth, as they did with Ravana.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

even if Ramuh IS just Rhalgr as interpreted by the Sylphs, there's no guarantee that Rhalgr as interpreted by the Resistance would be at all similar

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His depiction on The Spire (AST) forces us to do some mental gymnastics, in that case.

Lewphon of Sharlayan had to weave together disparate records from across Eorzea just to get history and theology back together (233 Sixth Astral). So, I don't imagine too much from before then has been readily accessible, and what has would have been treasured and preserved. Fair assumptions so far? These sources, then, would likely be the same as those upon which modern religious motifs are based. And what does Rhalgr look like on The Spire but Ramuh's twin brother, down to same staff, but in bronze.

For Sharlayan to see Rhalgr in a way that is not shared with the nation who currently worships him, a dilemma needs solving: Ala Mhigo worships Rhalgr. The Sylphs live next door. The Sylphs borrow a seed of faith from the gods of men, and it grows into an entity identical to the god worshipped next door, but a version of it from thousands of malms away. Weird, right?

Unless ... suppose we keep rolling backwards: the Sylphs probably borrowed the seed of faith hundreds and hundreds of years ago; it's warped into a primal with a different name. Perhaps back then, the Sharlayan documents and re-emerging religious lore were similar, but Ala Mhigo's vision of Rhalgr has warped since then.

What would Rhalgr look like in that ... oh, shi—

http://gamerescape.com/wp-content/up...ASVEGAS_26.png

I think Rhalgr and Ramuh would end up being vastly different since we know from Koji Fox himself that if two groups summon the same primal but have different interpretations how that primal actually IS we could, theoretically, have two different primals sharing a name and a similar appearance but still be different (plus, they would be summoned at the same time, if my memory serves right). Rhalgr could be similar to Ramuh but I highly doubt we'd wind up with Ramuh if the Resistance succeeds in summoning the Destroyer.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

I think Rhalgr and Ramuh would end up being vastly different since we know from Koji Fox himself that if two groups summon the same primal but have different interpretations how that primal actually IS we could, theoretically, have two different primals sharing a name and a similar appearance but still be different (plus, they would be summoned at the same time, if my memory serves right). Rhalgr could be similar to Ramuh but I highly doubt we'd wind up with Ramuh if the Resistance succeeds in summoning the Destroyer.

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I'm not saying they cant be mechanically different, just that they are thematically a bit too similar. If we fought Belias and he ended up being a lizard like fire demon like Ifrit with a few different traits I think people would be a bit disappointed even if mechanically they were different. People like variety in things like primals. Honestly if we are going to fight a primal of one of the twelve I think there are much more original options.

well it seems we will get a Rhalgr summon after all. Or at least the 3.5 trailer heavily implies that we are going to have a Primal Rhalgr VS Omega Weapon showdown.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

well it seems we will get a Rhalgr summon after all. Or at least the 3.5 trailer heavily implies that we are going to have a Primal Rhalgr VS Omega Weapon showdown.

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While it could be Rhalgr, I do wonder if Ilberd is actually summoning something more specific to his patriotic extremism. Something like Griever, an anthropomorphized griffon primal, albeit perhaps with aspects of Rhalgr.

I honestly Imagine Rhalgr more akin to zeus, fighting us with fists and lightning, wouldn't mind seeing it be done tbh

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

While it could be Rhalgr, I do wonder if Ilberd is actually summoning something more specific to his patriotic extremism. Something like Griever, an anthropomorphized griffon primal, albeit perhaps with aspects of Rhalgr.

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It is exactly because of his patriotic extremism that the patron god of Ala Mhigo is the most likely candidate. Also he likely needs a lot more prayer than his own. It is probably easier to convince the other Ala Mhigans to pray for Rhalgr. But it is true that it is not confirmed that the primal is Rhalgr. Then again, neither is the Griffin being Ilberd.

Is it even possible to forcibly summon a deity as it is with Primals? I may be wrong here but I was always under the impression that the 12 let their presence be known on their "own terms" if you will. As far as we know Primals can manifest when there is a high concentration of aether and/or through summoning rituals. It would seem odd to me that Rhalgr, a deity could be summoned by similar means. If this is not the case, why didn't the Ishgardians call upon Halone?

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I'm not saying they cant be mechanically different, just that they are thematically a bit too similar. If we fought Belias and he ended up being a lizard like fire demon like Ifrit with a few different traits I think people would be a bit disappointed even if mechanically they were different. People like variety in things like primals. Honestly if we are going to fight a primal of one of the twelve I think there are much more original options.

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Titan - Sephirot
Sophia - Lakshmi
Bahamut - Nidhogg

Just because a primal is built similarly doesn't mean the battle will be the same. I imagine Rhalgar as a being the size as phase 2 sephirot, which would make for a very different kind of battle.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Is it even possible to forcibly summon a deity as it is with Primals? I may be wrong here but I was always under the impression that the 12 let their presence be known on their "own terms" if you will. As far as we know Primals can manifest when there is a high concentration of aether and/or through summoning rituals. It would seem odd to me that Rhalgr, a deity could be summoned by similar means. If this is not the case, why didn't the Ishgardians call upon Halone?

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We've known that one of the twelve CAN be summoned like a Primal, the youth of Little Ala Mhigo tried it during the ARR MSQ. However, it's not one of the Twelve (if they're even real), it's a Primal in the shape of one of the Twelve, further given shape by their followers' beliefs. The reason the Ishgardians didn't do it with Halone...well, Ysayle inspired King Thordan...

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Originally Posted by Lufir

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You're operating under the assumption that the deities known as "the Twelve" actually exist at all, something which we have no explicit proof of.

A Primal is whatever its summoners believe it to be. Louisoix partially summoned the Twelve at Cartenau (he planned to kill himself during the ritual to prevent them from being completely summoned, then Bahamut emerged from Dalamud and some improvisation was in order). Wilred & co. were planning to summon Rhalgr during the 2.0 MSQ.

What about this is odd to you?

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Is it even possible to forcibly summon a deity as it is with Primals? I may be wrong here but I was always under the impression that the 12 let their presence be known on their "own terms" if you will. As far as we know Primals can manifest when there is a high concentration of aether and/or through summoning rituals. It would seem odd to me that Rhalgr, a deity could be summoned by similar means. If this is not the case, why didn't the Ishgardians call upon Halone?

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Well a primal summoned member of the twelve wouldn't actually be one of the twelve. Primals are basically manifestations of their peoples beliefs, only given from by those beliefs and Aether. We don't actually even know if its possible to summon a member of the twelve in some way. In fact we don't even know for sure if twelve really exist.

Just when I thought I knew at least an ounce about primals. XD

I'm actually very confused why these new (theoretical but probable) depictions of Rhalgr are looking Hyuran? Other than Koji's explanation for Hyuran Shiva statues being attributed to Hyuran sculptors.

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Originally Posted by Tyago Moui

They say Ahldbhar was the mightiest of the twelve Archons. Rhalgr the Destroyer himself, taken form in Roegadyn flesh─a bloody mountain of a man, and a fearsome warrior, besides. Not unlike our friend at the Coliseum, eh? You must’ve seen renderings of Rhalgr at some point─in paint or stone. Looks like a bag of angry muscles in a mage’s robes, right? Aye, well, those are done in the likeness of Archon Ahldbhar.

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Originally Posted by Hihibaru

In case you're unfamiliar, Rhalgr is the guardian deity of Ala Mhigo, which is currently under Garlean rule. It's highly uncommon for folk of other nations to revere Him.

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So if most paintings and statues of Rhalgr are said to be in the likeness of Archon Ahdlbhar throughout the 6th Astral Era and worship of Rhalgr is almost exclusive to Ala Mhigo, wouldn't it stand to reason that it'd be Ala Mhigans who would be carrying on this 1500 year-long depiction into the modern day?

It's a bit harder to tell on the Spire card, Rhalgr's profile looks strikingly similar to Ramuh's model, with the notable exception of rounded Hyuran or Roegadyn ears meanwhile Ramuh has long pointed ears, likely a byproduct of the Sylph's interpretation.