Although I haven't personally finished all of the Alexander raids, I am completely captivated by the story behind it. So far from what I understand, Alexander is a benevolent primal, it calculated the best possible futures, etc. etc. I recently learned that the arms themselves were Gordias/Midas respectively, coupled along with the infamous "Foward and Back" Cruise Chaser theme that refer to Mide and Dayan, I couldn't take it anymore and I just have to know everything!
I'm not sure whether someone has made a thread about this yet (I have used to search tool) and Google'd the whole story to no avail. I was hoping someone could give me the whole story somewhere if they found it, and then answer a few specific questions!
1. How are Mide and Dayan their own ancestors and descendants? I'm so confused with the whole time loop thing (that is perhaps what I am struggling with the most).
2. How does the Engima Codex actually work? I have gotten to the part where Mide got the last piece back and then say she's not worthy for it to show its contents to her anymore.
3. How is the blinking screen actually Dayan and how did Mide just *suddenly* understand to jump into the core?
4. Lastly, why is it the *Burden* of the Father/Son. Just genuinely curious about the name for this one since cuff/arm makes sense for, well, the arms of Alexander.
Thank you and Merry Christmas!
Alexander Lore
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12-25-2016, 02:34 PMAlynnAlexander Lore
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12-25-2016, 03:31 PMAnonymoose
Alexander's story arc itself can be pretty straightforward (but if you think too hard about it, you might have a bad time).
The key term is closed loop, or retrocausality. In this approach to time travel, there is a series of events, but an event late in the chain actually causes the first event. It feels like there should be an "original" timeline that was lost, but things always have and only could have played out the way they did. To understand this, it helps to stop thinking of time as a series of individual moments and see it as a singular, complete block.
Leopold Fitz can help me here (but if you try to apply the implications of this to other story arcs, you might have a bad time).
EDIT: For what specifically happened in this closed time loop, I recommend just reading the post below this one.
When thinking about oddities like this, it helps to always keep someone's age label on them and remember that it wouldn't be so hard to understand if you saw things from their perspective. We see 26-year-old Mide go into the core and she is never seen or heard from again. But that doesn't mean that, thousands of years ago, 26-year-old Mide didn't walk out of a time machine and keep on living her life. What's more, assume that you didn't age in Alexander's core. She could stay there for another thousand years after our death and still make it back to ancient times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
In a closed loop, you could invent a time machine at age 30, travel 100 years back in time, and die before you were born. Hell, you could become your own great grandparent! It has zero impact on baby you through 29-year-old you that 30-year-old you spent the rest of their life somewhere else.
The only catch is that if 30-year-old you interacts with 5-year-old you, the 30-year-old you that built the time machine in the first place should already have memories of that event. Movies and TV shows featuring closed loops often use this as part of the drama, they go back in time only to find that everything they're doing is exactly what happened in the first place, their actions were just unseen and unknown to them until they played the part.
That's about all there is to it, really. You can only read the Codex if it deems you worthy. The Codex will only deem you worthy if you truly, completely believe in its ideals. After living through the events of the story arc, Mide and Roundrox have obvious, reasonable, unavoidable reservations about the Codex's contents. Alexander himself had reservations about his own existence. The only reason this never happened to Quickthinx Allthoughts is because he lived the lie - his delusions of grandeur tricked him into believing that he was invincible and chosen and that he was holding anything more than the FFXIV equivalent of Grays Sports Almanac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
Seeing as this is all happening in a closed loop, those events are potentially the only way to set up the exact future that leads to what has already happened in the past, damning it to happen just so. The implication is, of course, that the strength of their bond was enough for Dayan to reach out from the core and call to her, and that she understood just what it meant. After all, the whole point was to be with him again, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
I should re-watch the scenes, though. I feel like I remember understanding it deeper at the time.
A burden is something that often rests metaphorically on shoulders, which come after fists, cuffs, and arms. The rest all ties into real-world mythology surrounding Alexander the Great, Gordias, and Midas. There might actually be more to it, but trying to unravel those Wikipedia articles in context of Final Fantasy franchise history and this unique installment's patterns gave me a headache every time I tried. Maybe one day... maybe one day...Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
And to you, as well!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
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12-25-2016, 03:31 PMCilia
It goes without saying, but Supermassive spoilers for Alexander ahead.
The key to understanding the full story of Alexander is an offhand comment from its main villain:
Within the context of the story, he's entirely right. To grasp what's going on, you have to disregard the idea of time flowing from past to present to future, because Alexander's time manipulation makes it possible to violate that. As such, events that happen in the past are set up by events in the present / future, allowing causal violations. Everything that happens within Alexander's story already happened, so there's no way to change anything - even if you were aware of time looping, the events of the story couldn't be altered because they already played out that way. The only one with the power to change what happens is Alexander, but he's benevolent so only observes the possibility where he's removed from spacetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickthinx Allthoughts
In historical terms, from our perspective the events play out as such:
1. Alexander spits Mide and Dayan out in the distant past. They return to Othard(?), found the Hotgo tribe, and pass Alexander's tale down in the tribe until it becomes legend. The fragment Mide brought with her becomes the basis for the rest of the Enigma Codex.
2. 2 (3?) years ago, Mide and Dayan collaborate with other Au Ra to summon Alexander into a Sharlayan ruin and use the Enigma Codex to control him. They succeed, but cannot control him; Dayan is absorbed by Alexander, the others are killed, the Codex is shattered, and Mide seals Alexander in the lake. (Whole truth: this is Roundrox returning us to that fateful day in her delirium so Mide can see Dayan again. The on-board Illuminati killed the other Au Ra, and Schrodinger knocks Backrix' journal chronicling A1-A10 from his hands to the ground, tumbling down with it. Past Quickthinx acquires both, using the journal to set up the events of A1-A10 and renaming Schrodinger "Shanoa." We return to the present, after A10.)
3. As per the journal's instructions, Quickthinx has the Illuminati summon Alexander at the appointed place and time, setting up A1-A10. This leads to 2 happening above.
4. Upon reaching Alexander's core, Quickthinx uses his power to freeze us in a time bubble and force Alexander to pass Judgement on us. We're unfrozen at the last moment, however, and survive to face Alexander Prime in the Soul of the Creator.
5. After passing Alexander's Divine Judgement, he sends four party members to the past to save our past selves in 4 above. We defeat Alexander Prime.
6. Mide throws herself into Alexander's core to stop him from going nuclear. Roundrox gives Schrodinger her Codex fragment, who returns it to within Alexander. This allows Alexander to return Mide and Dayan to 1 above with the Codex fragment.
7. Alexander shuts down and seals himself outside of spacetime.
So it's essentially a self-causing paradox. The end and the beginning lead to each other, meaning everything has already happened - our victory and Quickthinx' defeat is all but assured. The only problem is... well, the "weather" inside the Soul of the Creator says "Beyond Time," and Alexander's line when sending the adds to the past ("My faithful, to the past with you, to free these ones from the prison of time.") could be taken to mean he's still trying to kill you since everything that happens within the story (and arguably history from 1 to 7 above) is essentially a temporal prison he wants to liberate you from. Everyone and everything within the time loops has to happen unless Alexander reconfigures the timeline (he's an observer) - but you stop him before he can do so, which is arguably what makes you truly "worthy."
To directly answer the questions:
1. Unknown and unknowable. Since Alexander's existence is owed to a bootstrap paradox, where or whenever he originated from is beyond our ability to observe. Hypothetically there's an alternate "Zeroth Loop" timeline he came from that we simply cannot observe, but... that's just conjecture, since we literally cannot know.
2. The Enigma Codex only works for people who truly believe in Alexander's ideals, whether out of innocence or arrogance. Mide cannot read it any longer because her experiences with Alexander's disastrous first "summoning" jaded her, and Roundrox loses the ability to do so after you complete the line, preferring to create the future with her own hands instead of relying on Alexander's power. Quickthinx can read the Codex because he arrogantly believes the Illuminati have the divine right to use Alexander's power, but since doing so is dangerous does not except as a last resort. (Fittingly, Alexander rejects and kills him.)
3. It's implied that whatever was left of Dayan within Alexander was communicating with Mide through the screen. Mide interpreted that as "Jump into the core!" ... whether or not any of that is true is, again, unknown and unknowable.
4. Good question! Open for interpretation, but my personal take on it is that since Alexander is both the Father and Son of the time loops, it's his Burden to live forever within that self-contained fragment of eternity.
If you got any other questions don't hesitate to ask. I can get pretty deep in this...
... and Merry Christmas to you too. -
12-25-2016, 04:14 PMRocl
I always understood "Burden" to be a poetic way of saying "shoulder."
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12-26-2016, 12:29 AMKhalitharEvery time I read the Alexander lore I get reminded of that episode of Futurama where you learn because of time travel, Fry is his own grandfather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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12-26-2016, 05:30 AMCiliaThat's one way to make sense of it, I suppose. Causal paradox and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
For my part I rationalize it by applying concepts from BlazBlue, which has a lot of time travel shenanigans (and does get sort of scientific about it, at times). It's how I've currently rationalized our overwhelming successes in spite of impossible odds - Hydaelyn is our observer, which is why we simply never lose. We can lose, but it's not "us;" the "us" that lost is simply one of myriad possibilities Hydaelyn does not observe. She only observes the "us," the temporal pathway that happens if / when we succeed. The reason she had to directly intervene to save us from Ultima? There was no possible way we'd walk out of that - Lahabrea's machinations made sure we'd perish - and she wanted us kept alive, but outside of direct intervention there was no way for us to survive. So Hydaelyn directly intervened, something observers aren't supposed to do, which is why it was so taxing on her.
... explains a lot, but I seriously doubt I'm right. -
12-29-2016, 01:24 PMAlynn
Wow, thank you everyone for all the wonderful responses! It took me a few days to thank you guys, due to my mind not being able to comprehend the whole "Mide-and-Dayan-are-just-there-it-can't-be-explained-ever" thing, but after rereading, it made a bit more sense. I'd love to just accept the fact that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
But I'm still really confused. Would it make more sense to just think of this part as an enclosed bubble kind of thing? Both you and Anony Moose said that we were all just actors playing our part in a script that was predestined and has happened over and over, and that somewhere out there, Mide could've lived her life out, and so forth. It's just hard thinking about that when I know there's an object she held onto (that Codex fragment from seemingly her encounter with our whole squad).
Sorry if I'm being increasingly difficult/overthinking it, but I really just want to understand my favorite story in the game T_T -
12-29-2016, 01:37 PMAnonymoosePlease, be as difficult as you need to if you feel that there's more to understand. With time travel loops / paradoxes like these, it tends to be a situation where if you don't get one thing, your understanding of the rest collapses until it all just clicks into place for you. I'm not entirely sure if I understand which thing it is that's giving you trouble, but I'll answer the one I think it is as best as I can:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
Mide and Dayan go into the core in the game's "present day" and (from our perspective) they vanish. Who knows how long they were in the core, when "now" was in the core, etc. But for some reason, it seems to have spit them back out of the core after traveling thousands of years back in time. This allows them to become their own progenitors, solving the paradox and setting the whole thing into a stable loop.
(I think this means that there are two loops? One plays out from 3 years ago until looping back into itself mid-story, and then the other ends just after the story and loops back into itself many, many years ago? I wanted to add this for clarity but I'm starting to confuse myself, too! LOL)
If I had to guess, understanding it as I do at this point in time (and I cannot promise 100% certainty that I understand it correctly) I would assume that this is how Alexander solved the problem of his own existence. Remember the video I liked up top, where Fitz refers to every moment of the "present" as a sheet of paper, and that we never see or comprehend the 4-dimensional stack of paper? Alexander would have had to observe time from that perspective, and manipulate the contents of the "sheets" so that everything lined up in a clean loop that kept him from existing long enough to do more harm than good.
Cause and effect goes out the window if you can manipulate the stack. A later event can cause an earlier event if that's where the time travel happens and the loop manifests, so long as it's a clean, stable loop. -
12-29-2016, 05:38 PMCilia
There's actually three loops in play.
1. Alexander spits Mide and Dayan out in the distant past, leading to the events of the raid and them being able to be absorbed by Alexander and spat out in the past.
2. The Auri treasure hunters "summon" Alexeander 3 years ago, leading to Quickthinx getting Backrix' journal. This allows him to follow A1-A10 like a script, and the events immediately after A10 are what lead to Alexander's "summoning" 3 years ago.
3. Quickthinx freezes us in a suspended time bubble and has Alexander pass Judgment on us, but our future selves save us, something that would not be possible if we had perished to Judgment in the first place.
The easiest way to visualize it is as a play. There's a script (time), actors, a stage (Alexander's innards), and a director (Alexander). The script is already written and can't be changed, the actors all play their parts, the stage is set accordingly, and the director nudges things in the right direction. It is a self-contained bubble, sort of - but we exist outside of that bubble after we've played our part, unlike a number of the other "actors."
Mide's Codex fragment was, in fact, not held onto the entire time by herself. The one Mide has in the distant past is the one Roundrox recovered and Quickthinx sought as the final piece. After Alexander Prime's defeat, Roundrox gives it to Schrodinger (a manifestation of Alexander's will), who returns it to within Alexander's body before Alexander releases Mide and Dayan in the past. He gives Mide the Codex fragment while doing so, and since a Sharlayan history book mentions all the details - Mide's blue hair, how her and Dayan crawled out of Alexander's guts in the distant past, how they founded the Hotgo tribe, sketches that greatly resemble the two, and how "distant past" Mide had a [stone that is dark when sitting on the ground but lights up when held in your hands].
Saying "Mide brought it with her" isn't quite correct; Alexander gave Mide Roundrox' Codex fragment when he let her out in the past because that's the way it had - well, has, I guess - to be. Can't turn out any other way.
It's all one big closed circle - one bad comedy played out for eternity within its own little loop of time. Every detail is accounted for... except for the origin, which we can't observe anyway. -
12-29-2016, 07:59 PMBelhi
Do remember it was a supercomputer capable of calculating every possible outcome of every possible action throughout all history that came up with this plan so if its a bit hard to grasp it would make some sense.
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12-29-2016, 10:58 PMtreuhavikI think it does a lot of good not to focus on the chronological order in which these events took place. Trying to start your line of thought with Mide and Dayan in the past makes things messy. If you concentrate on the characters' timeline, it's much easier to comprehend. Mide and Dayan started in one place in time and ended in another. It really doesn't matter that the latter period is chronologically prior to the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alynn
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12-30-2016, 02:20 AMCilia
As mentioned before, the trick to understanding everything is acknowledging that time doesn't flow in a straight line for the events surrounding Alexander. While the timeline I posted earlier is historically accurate, from our perspective it plays out a bit differently.
1. The Illuminati summon Alexander.
2. A1-A10 play out.
3. We're warped 3 years into the past, setting up both 1 and 2 above.
4. We're unfrozen from the time bubble and spared Alexander's Judgement.
5. We save our past selves in 4 above after surviving Divine Judgement.
6. Mide throws herself into Alexander's core to shut him down.
7. After Roundrox gives Schrodinger her Codex fragment, Alexander spits Mide and Dayan out in the distant past with it, setting up the events of the entire story.
Our distant past is Mide's future, leading to the "present" events of Alexander. It's all a big, infinitely repeating causal loop - a worthless comedy show played time and again for eternity.
Don't forget: time is relative. -
12-30-2016, 05:17 PMCilia
As always I hate to double post, but here is an instructional video for time travel concepts. The part that's pertinent to the topic at hand starts at 4:15.
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01-02-2017, 04:51 PMAlynn
Thank you so much again guys!! I think I finally understand... I just stopped trying so hard and it all fell into place!! ._.
Happy New Years! Thanks again for all the insightful posts!! -
01-03-2017, 02:43 PMEdwinLi
Ya Alex story is interesting but has, as Doctor Who would say....
http://38.media.tumblr.com/d8a8fa83d...tjpno1_400.gif
involved being how events unfold as intended and the future is not actually in a person's control. -
05-30-2019, 12:11 PMN7Drayconivous
It's like what Biggs says. "I'll believe just about anything at this point." That was my answer as well finishing that questline. It was a wonderful story though in my opinion. Kind of eerie, but wonderful. Pretty much time travel, we in our time meet her in her time loop is kinda how that works. We were destined to meet her and well you know what happens from there.