We will get new skills at some point. Classes would become boring for veterans if they wouldn't get any new toys to play with but.... how the hell would you manage them?
I main DRK, got a PLD @60 and a BRD@59.
All 3 classes have 3 hotbars that are filled with skills. 33 of the 36 skill slots are bound to keyboard buttons.
I have no idea what buttons I'd bind new skills to without making me play some kind of twister on the keyboard.
Those are my skillbinds:
1,2,3,4,ctrl+E,^Q,F,C,Q,E,R,T,^E,^R,^T,^V,^X,^C,V,^G,ctrl+G,ctrl+Q,alt+Q,MMB,ctrl+c,ctrl+r,^F,zirkumflex,G,Shift+4,Shift+1,Shift+2,Shift+3,
I mean yeah I could work with alt more but alt is kind of uncomfortable to hit because I'd have to hit it with my thumb which in my opinion isn't nearly as comfortable as ctrl or shift(I prefer letting my thumb rest on the spacebar). Edit: DUH! That's it! Get rid of jump and instead rebind spacebar as another modificator key. GENIUS. Problem solved lol.
Would you people even WANT new skills? Some skills are pretty boring, like DRK for example you just hit Reprisal, plunge and Low Blow whenever they proc (except for rare ocassions in which you want to interrupt a cast with low blow) with some skills just being almost completely useless (Dark Dance for example).
Ahhh dunno. I was just thinking a bit. Should we get any more skills I'd need a 4th skillbar.....eeehhhh. So much clutter. Well definately better than just having like 5 skills *cough* TSW,GW2,TESO *cough*
Let's say we'd get more skills - How would you handle them?
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12-13-2016, 05:52 AMExidrialLet's say we'd get more skills - How would you handle them?
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12-13-2016, 08:38 AMGravton
Yeah button bloat is an issue but I think SE is working on it. You didn't even mention the PvP skills and new chat macros. I'd like to think SE would improve/modify over getting outright new ones. Like traits.
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12-13-2016, 09:18 AMExidrial
I don't think they'll add many more skills tbh simply because they have to make sure all those skills fit on a controller layout.
Edit: Didn't know you had as much space on the controller layout as you do. -- -
12-13-2016, 09:18 AMMartin_Arcainess
If your just hitting your OGCD when ever they proc your playing DRK wrong well not fully wrong but it isn't always the best idea to pop OGCD's just because you can pop them.
TB in coming? ok I'll save Reprisal for it.
Mob needs to be stuned? Someone else do my low blow is on CD.
Tilts in coming, ahhh I've fallen off the edge! If only I had Plunge on CD so I could have lived.
But yeah sometimes you got think more of the skill to fully use it.
Also time your BW and OGCD's. If your Plunge is ready but you 3 seconds left on your Blood weapon then wait till it's ready, pop BW then plunge you'll get extra MP because of that.
Too many people just pop OGCD's just because there ready :p
But on a side note, post a screen shot of your HUD layout maybe I can help?
eh, I've still got loads of space left on my controller. Could easily fit in another 10 skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exidrial
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12-13-2016, 10:52 AMShurrikhanTechnically you can just use a button registry swapper to turn Caps into an Alt, so you have it right in line with the others. It just takes a little while to get used to having your pinky that high. Personally, I used alt just as a pinky trigger even before swapping Caps over to it; though the hand position demand you move only with your mouse for the split second, Alt-S, D, F, G, X, C, V, B, etc. are really quite comfortable. Now, with Caps replaced, I can even comfortably Alt (Caps)- F1, F2, F3, F4, and so forth. Adjusting the key in-game only, though, is unprecedented as far as I'm aware, and I don't expect SE would be the first to allow for something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exidrial
Especially for us 1.x veterans, hailing from a jump-less state of the game, Space has always seemed like a vast area of keyboard space to spend on such little value. At least, that was the case until we swapped to character-based camera and auto-face target, at which point jumping became immensely important for maintaining attackable facing on moving targets for melee, and maintaining direction of movement while using skills and maintaining auto-attack uptime on ranged. Even then, though, I'd hear comments like "couldn't we have just fixed auto-face targeting and made this a more impactful key, such as for a dynamic (cover, grouping, displacement, etc.) system?"
What I really wish they'd do is copy the lingering mod states for keys that have multiple mod or unmodded states, such as Q, Shift-Q, and Ctrl-Q. In most other MMOs, if you hit Q to strafe, hitting Shift wouldn't stop your strafe outright in order to perform the Shift-Q function; instead, you'd need to hit Q again. This allows you then, to strafe about using Q and E while hitting other Shift-modified keys. To put it another way, it doesn't append the mod state to keys already being pressed, or only works in the order mod->key, never key->mod. Paired with jumping to prevent stopping or change of direction, that simple difference can open up a variety of keys that would otherwise be too clunky to use (such as, again, by stopping strafing movement if you attempt to use any other mod form of your strafe keys). I would love for XIV to allow for either version, by player choice.
Another handy bit would be to simply allow for multiple non-simultaneous functions for the same key, and/or to allow a couple additional states / control schemes. For instance, if a specific function is only available when in full-screen menus (controller), or when mounted, why would it necessarily need to be a different key from what you use when in typical combat? For instance, let's say there's a raider who wants to make the most of his pre-modified keyboard space, and sees keyboard-turning as useless for combat so he removes those two keys. But, when he's just traveling about for hunts, or whatnot, he'd really like those keys back so he can fly lazily with just his right or left hand. This could be solved in either or both of two ways: you allow for a different control scheme for (flying/ground/all) mounts, and assign turning, rather than strafing, to Q and E or A and D, and/or you allow for another mod-state via tied camera and movement (e.g. by default, when LMB and RMB are both pressed, or MMB is held). Now you have the best of both worlds. Similarly, allow for multiple abilities to be assigned to the same slot if they cannot be simultaneously available. The one currently available will be shown. This could cover skills like Wide Volley vs. Quick Nock, Fell Cleave vs. Inner Beast, Decimate vs. Steel Cyclone, Fang and Claw vs. Wheeling Thrust, and even Defiance vs. Deliverance (simply toggling between the two). That small adjustment should save you a slot for Bard, Machinist, and Dragoon, and 3 for Warrior.
I don't play with a controller, save for maybe once a year just to review how it's supposed to feel, so I can't offer much in suggestions on that side. I just hope we'd be able to keep all combat keys within 2 hotbars (24 binds), including LB, Sprint, and core pet macros/abilities. All I can maybe hope for in terms of their UI or control schemes is that we might be able to reverse the way the mod and main keys work, e.g. entering a new set by hitting O, and then using its abilities via LB, LT, LS, RB, RT, RS, or to change over only half a set or so (just the right or left).
Finally, a couple general QoL changes for setup, to improve intuitiveness of making a UI, though not combating button-bloat exactly:- An optional "Cooldown" bar, similar to a buff or debuff bar, that shows which skills are on cooldown, and for how long. This would largely forgo the need to create any additional bars on controller; if it's not on the cooldown bar, you're ready to go. Of course, additional sorting and ordering, or the use of a slider sort, would be helpful thereafter.
- Allow for keys to be more easily be bound directly to the slots shown on screen. For example, typing /keybind or hitting its shortcut would allow m&kb players to simply hover their mouse over whatever skill slot they wanted to adjust on screen and input the key they want assigned to it, while controller players would be directed to a sub-interface that would allow them to easily adjust their key positions and mod keys on screen, rather than solely through the keybind menu. Alternatively, either can bind skills directly from their Actions and Traits menu, such that if the skill shows up multiple times on your bars, so too does its bind.
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12-13-2016, 11:09 AMZojha
Well, I'd just cram them into a new hotbar and try to get used to it?
I've long given up on keybinds anyway, so it's just a matter of developing the muscle memory.
That said: I'm not sure I'd really "enjoy" more skills. I've got enough buttons to press, really. Though as ninja, they can add a lot of skills simply by giving the redundant mudra combinations their own ninjutsu and adding a fourth mudra. That'd be like 12 new skills while only adding a single button. That'd probably set me for an expansion or two >_> -
12-13-2016, 09:39 PMExidrialQuote:
Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess
Really? I don't play with controller but I thought space was somewhat tight.
The DRK OGCDs can be situational. Most of the time you can just hit the OGCDs without having to worry about consequences.
There are almost no attacks in the game that are worth interrupting, plunge is only a saver if you screw up. Don't screw up. Plunge MIGHT be a minor DPS increase if you use it as a gap closer after a boss has pushed you away but you'd probably be better off just using it whenever it's ready instead of waiting for the boss to do its push. -
12-13-2016, 10:01 PMAtoli
In a recent interview about 4.0, Yoshi-P said we won't be having more skills to use.
While we will get new skills, others we had so far will go and the amount of skills you need at 70 will be about the same as now.
I doubt that will be much different come 5.0 and so on either. -
12-13-2016, 10:50 PMExidrialIt definately will be interesting to see how they will handle the whole skill system in the future. For people like us that have been playing a class for a while it's not too hard to get used to a few new skills each cap but imagine people who just start out with a class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoli
I hope they won't change skills too much each level cap as well. Small changes in gameplay can take a while for some people to get used to. On my BRD for example I keep forgetting to use Iron Jaws instead of the DoTs because I'm so used to not having the skill available (I'm not playing BRD too much).
But how will you keep classes exciting and fun in the long run? I'm confident in SE, they'll figure it out. -
12-14-2016, 12:25 AMAtoli
Yeah I think the gameplay of a class changing can be very worrying as well, even if the skill bloat doesn't increase.
With HW, I personally found the changes all to be enjoyable and enganging, but we'll see where it goes in the future.
As for how to handle skills - your skillbinds would make me crazy xD
I just have my main rotation on 1-´ (the numbers row, German keyboard) as well as Ctrl + 1-´, where I actually use my thumb to press Crtl (so I guess using Alt would actually make it easier..?xD).
I play with both hands though, so hitting Crtl + 5 and upwards can be done with the right hand.
The third hotbar is just stances, rarely-used OGC abilities and skills I just need for leveling roulette because they get replaced on higher level (like on WHM, Stone I and II) as well as PvP abilities, and I just click them with the mouse in the rare occasion that I need them.
Even if we got more skills, that set-up wouldn't change, although if the active main rotation skills increased, I'd bind the third hotbar to Alt + 1-´, and add a fourth one for the rarely-used clickable skills^^ -
12-14-2016, 12:40 AMExidrialOh god I didn't even think about classes that get skills replaced. Are those lower level skills completely useless in high level dungeons? If so then why the hell didn't SE just give you a passive at Level X that makes the skill more powerful? Makes no sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoli
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12-14-2016, 03:36 AMNyghtmarerobuMostly because stone 1 has a slow, while stone 2 and 3 are pure dmg. This could be something that is changed to either put slow on all 3, or to take it off completely. If they decide to do what you say, they should do the same thing for astro as well, and change malefic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Exidrial
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12-14-2016, 04:44 AMGumbercules
Yeah i see skill consolidation coming into play like the stone and slow thing mentioned above. There is also the incoming shared skills that are suspected to work something like a shared pool of skills that activate with your class lvl replacing the current version of cross class skills (ie you don't lvl gld to 22 for provoke, it just "activates"as a cross skill when your DoW reaches 22 etc) This one on itself could make some interesting rotation changes, and lead to skill reductions too. Skill bloat is a thing, and to be honest atm some classes are already at the brink imo, so with their design that they don't want rotations more complex than the current lvl 60 ones ill be interesting how they go about this, specially since they did already hint at "some" new skills :P
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12-14-2016, 08:24 PMBlueyesThis is actually inaccurate. What was being talked about was the amount of skill required to perform well with a job. This was in reference to how rotations became more complex with Heavensward. The statement was made to assure that the complexity of jobs wouldn't be further increased.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atoli
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12-14-2016, 09:14 PMDzianMakes me wonder what some people do with there hotbars. I play on a control pad and most of my jobs are set up using just 2 hotbars plus half of the expanded one (scholar uses all the expanded one for pet commands). and even at that many of my skills are duplicated on sets 1 and 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exidrial
ninja for example 6 of the 8 buttons on the r2 side are exactly the same on set 1 and set 2. but I still have everything on 2 sets plus half the expanded one. even with the duplicated skills. same with blm pld and scholar. the r2 side is almost identical on sets 1 and 2 on all my jobs
if you needed more space could always use the whotbar. though the only things I really have on there are /countodown, phoenix downs in palace of the dead
and the occasional /p line macrodepending on the fight. so like /p left or /p right in seph ex. so if I'm orange ppl know which tower I'm getting.
So yeah I really don't get how ppl can need so many hotbars. -
12-15-2016, 03:04 AMAtoliI am pretty sure the specific question actually WAS about button bloat. And he answered that rotations will need the same amount of skills as now, which I tried to convey by saying "[won't be having] more skills to use".Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueyes
After all, unused skills can be taken off the hotbar/keybinds. -
12-15-2016, 08:43 AMMPNZ
It would be a negative to me unless the plan on removing a few skills from our rotation.
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12-19-2016, 04:58 AMMPNZ
I would like to see most of the new skills replace older ones, have them change some of the buffs into traits that can be CC'd like "Blood for Blood" and "Hawk's eye", make it so that some skills autocast themselves (Bloodletter) to ease rotational difficulty, maybe add a charge mechanic to replace cast times and spell clutter... And more traits!
I also wish that they would give PLD better damage and situational control and sheilds as opposed to current cover mechanic. And, that Bards would be able to control distance and supply support better and more easily. Especially, for crossbar players since Warden's Paeon just infuriates me as the keeping up with all of our procs and buffs does, becuase it's such a different job from what made it so much fun for me back in 2.0.
Edit: Sorry for the bump. I didn't check to see who had posted last. This is embarrassing... -
12-23-2016, 05:02 AMLeigaonThat's what I'm waiting to see how they do. Instead of Shadowskin, Foresight and Rampart. Condense them all down to one and adjust the traits to make it work out better. So for that example you push them all into one skill and add traits as you go along. One to reduce the cooldown time, another to lengthen the duration and another to increase the damage -%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravton
Mix that up with the spells that need to be written out, should make enough room for new abilities. Fracture, could be tacked onto a weaponskill instead of its own thing.
Or go into something that's more comfortable for me. White Mage. We don't need Stone I , II , III unless they do something drastic and majorly different. Make them one skill and then a trait will enhance it and change the icon / damage. Repose, never used that after so long. Fluid Aura..make Aero I / II / II like Stone but all aoe and give us Tornado as white mage.
What's so hard is that we don't really have much to do in combat besides deal as much damage as possible, so it's difficult to put other things in there. So a lot of things they could put in they can't, buffs don't last that long...maybe that's an issue that needs to be resolved. Instead of chaining in some abilities that do the same thing about, why not increase the duration..cut back on some of the needed buffs and boost that duration. -
12-30-2016, 05:33 PMShurrikhanThat would only save you one button, while reducing the level of control a given tank has over their incoming damage. I would certainly hope the skills aren't there just to make sure you can passively ("umm, tanky button?") get through whatever situation is designed for us. The numbers can be tuned at will, the only difference then being the amount of passive strength they wish to put into tanks vs. other roles. Your Foresight/Rampart/Shadowskin (of which you can only have two in the first place) doesn't need to be 30 seconds long while mitigating a quarter of all incoming damage. The only reason to do empower the mitigation toolkit is to underpower non-tank survivability, and the only reason to passively ball them up into one when they've had distinct places before is to ensure that a tank experiences periods of weakness (no CD coverage — e.g. not even Foresight/Awareness) by forcing those capabilities to be stacked. Particular boss timings aside, it's no different than taking your Sentinel away in exchange for an excessively empowered Rampart, or your Rampart taken away for a slightly shorter Sentinel CD which falls nonetheless short of meeting the timings you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
While I'll agree about Stone II and III, Stone I and II / III are as different as Stella and Malefic. It's your heavy, which merely happens to double as filler damage until Stone II.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
Increasing the duration of buffs would mean that you spend even more time doing nothing but spamming (filler) damage keys. At present, with very few exceptions (Fracture and ToD) every ability that is weak in the short term is proportionately stronger, if maximized, in the long term. Those buffs are already your strongest damage abilities, but the fact that they're not overwhelming long or powerful does at least allow you the occasional reason to forgo them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
__________________
You could probably redo those triads of each element to be stackable, Magicka-esque elemental modifiers that provide satisfying player control in each situation, variable to each situation, but as long as we're just talking basic SE abilities here, all but Stone II are still as distinct as any other attack arsenal. That may be leaving the bar low, but your alternative would leave it lower still (short a Heavy for WHMs, or spending extra mana to deplete heavy DRs needlessly, etc.). -
12-31-2016, 01:17 AMLeigaonSo thank you for pointing me in a better direction. My original intent was skill bloat, which there is some. Though it shouldn't be applied to everything. With what is there, does it really need to be? So with the 3 tank abilities (Yes I understand you can only equip 2 but I am looking at this from both a job and role perspective), what's the difference between Rampart and Shadow-skin? Nothing, if so very little. Combine them into one and make it a role based skill. Now we can adjust, maybe make Shadow-skin more of a DRK ability or add in something else? With those two there, is foresight really that useful? Or can it stay? If it goes what could we replace it with? If it stays what is a possibility to make it something that feels more within a Warrior role?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
This would also apply to the Stone and Stella, I forgot Stella so thank you for reminding me of that. If we take a look at stone I / II / III, what's the major difference? Potency and the Heavy from Stone I. How useful is Stone I to keep it on its own spell? Combining them all into one would reduce the need for the bloat to be on our keyboard in a different way. We're freeing up 2 spaces now for white mage. This isn't my idea though, I have seen this suggestion requested numerous times on healer threads because they're just...button space. Now if Stone I / II / III did something different..and that's a possibility too. Make them do something different or in addition.
You are absolutely right, increasing the buff durations will do nothing but give us more time than to spam filler. Though, they're already dancing with the idea of doing that with DRG BoTD, and I am sure they mentioned others. So now we have more time, like you said, to spam things. What could the devs put in place to take up that time? New mechanics? Or maybe take the ease off of some of the things that are done in general.
So I guess my answer is how would I handle new skills would be re-arranging our olds to;
Make room for new ones
Condense the clutter of old ones
Re-arrange the older ones to be more meaningful.
For example, I'm doing jobs to 60 now to get the stories (I love my story!) and I'm starting with DRG now. I felt like most of my job was hitting Heavy Thurst 90% of the time. I looked on Reddit and the forums constantly and someone posted something about DRG and how it's mostly just doing heavy thrust. So with something like that, why not increase that duration? Or arrange it so it opens up more time to apply other skills or abilities that they could implement.
Or MCH, when we had only so much time after loading our bullets, it was annoying. I felt pressed for time or if a tank ran stopped..looked up at the sky in a dungeon and took the time to think "what's the meaning of life? Why are we here? What is...here?" only to have my buff go off..wasn't fun. They extended this duration when activating it, and in return..I plan to pick that gun up and shoot some jellyfish thingys! It was a QoL ability change that could lead to more time for other things.
Though, I'll admit that the general description of doing some of this in my previous post just comes out as being lazy. Still, all the suggestions I would hope would be taken as one window closes, another opens.
The tanky ones I maybe wrong, though the Stone / Stella..I have a feeling I'm not alone, just the ones who play the jobs don't see any use for it after so many levels, and with level sync it would be nice to have the traits change them automatically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exidrial
They are useless after so long and if Heavy needs to be in our lives in terms of raiding it might be better off as another ability that a white mage could get more out of? Or if it is tacked on then we just have a very high cost MP heavy ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmarerobu
Thank you for this post btw, +1 from me. Some real helpful tips that I plan to try out now that the PC is back up and running. Been on PS4 too long, forgot how gorgeous it looks on a good machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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12-31-2016, 09:06 AMShurrikhanSee, this is where I get very conflicted. While I entirely agree with you that Rampart and Shadowskin are too similar, the only course of action I would consider is to diversify them. There is absolutely no benefit in turning them into one. At least as is you have a Rampart with a Dark Knight name and animation. Why take away those assets just because the contents of the skills are redundant? The change would have zero effect on their gameplay except in that they'd each have one skill that looks or sounds out of whack for their job. Do. Not. Remove. Assets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
Rather, simply think about what the DRK toolkit has, or even lacks, and what it would have and lack if Shadowskin was removed. Now, consider how you could fill that niche with something that would fit the name "Shadowskin". Does it play into the general idea of a DRK. Does it imply any undermechanics that would appeal to you? Can you make those undermechanics a real thing? How would they allow for a greater or more varied range of play? Would they be balanced? Now, finally, how do they work with the active, CD-based control provided by the actual new Shadowskin ability? I recommend you work in that direction.
I fully agree that these things, especially when level-swapping, could use some QoL work. My personal favorite way I've seen to handle these would be "shell order" or "fill order". Essentially, you map all your keys for your hotbars beforehand, and then determine a fill order for those bindings, and seperately, those slots. You could also choose whether you wanted to skip to a higher pattern at certain modular values, e.g. "r, f, c" could replace "r, t" which was at the time more convenient for just two keys, and can be in turn replaced by "s1, s2, s3, s4" when you have a remainder of 4 past the previous concrete set. Below is the shell order I used before:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
1,
1,2
1,2,3
1,2,3,4
1,2,3,4,r
1,2,3,4,r,t,
1,2,3,4,r,f,c
1,2,3,4,s1,s2,s3,s4,
1,2,3,4,r; s1,s2,s3,s4
1,2,3,4,r; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR
1,2,3,4,r,t; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sT (2 at a time now; left side first)
1,2,3,4,r,f,c; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC
1,2,3,4,5,r,f,c,t; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC,sT
1,2,3,4,5,r,f,c,t,y; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC,sT,sY
1,2,3,4,5,r,f,c,t,v,b; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC,sT,sV,sB
1,2,3,4,5,r,f,c,v,b,t,y; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC,sV,sB,sT,sY
1,2,3,4,5,r,f,c,v,b,t,y,g; s1,s2,s3,s4,sR,sF,sC,sV,sB,sT,sY,sG
For XIV I'd need a few more keys, but that should give you the basic idea. Once set, every one of my jobs filled out the new abilities in skill priority order, condensing and expanding as skills were gained or lost or were determined to be superfluous (e.g. Stone II if Stone III was available).
I believe that to be something like a final means of mitigating the issue, but certainly more than XIV needs.
At present, just tying together redundants by default would be more than enough (WT>F&C, FC>IB, Dec>SC, SIII>SII, MII>MI, etc.) You could even add a right click / context menu option in certain skills accessed via the spell book to "replace" [Stone II/Ruin/Malefic/etc].
First, I think the general idea of the only two possible gameplay changes they've noted (BotD and Enochian) are to increase ease of use and create a greater visual sense of their importance. That's a whole lot of weight to be putting on a simple buff bar that's classically undersized compared to the rest of the UI (kidding in part, but I honestly do play with the buff bar at 110% and the rest of my UI at 60%, just to get the duration numbers about as big as my mana cost numbers on my hotbar). It doesn't *look* like it should be the most important thing in your late-game rotation, and moreover it feels jarring to many that their rotation is that dependent on whether or not that buff is maintained (which in itself may seem more tedious than exciting). I think SE's realizing that the level of play required to really showcase those skills is more than a lot of players are going to aim for, especially given how frustrated those same skills have made them on the way to that point. BotD can be thrilling in certain gambles, especially in the contexts of real fights without guaranteed uptimes. But on a dummy? Or in the hands of a player who doesn't realize those risks or rewards? I think it's primarily that SE is considering now that added difficulty is only going to be as exciting as the player's ability to find a path to master it, and therefore is lost on a fair part of the playerbase, and want to find a way to make it a bit less jarring, and a bit more initially attractive. They want to try to reduce the gap, both in output and enjoyment between less skilled and better skilled players. Or... so I'm guessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigaon
As for your three solution paths, I don't think there's that much to do in the first two paths apart from the obvious parts I mentioned above—putting redundant/pairs in the same slot. The third does potentially have a lot of work possible, and in doing so would likely do what the first two solution paths would, but it'd be something of a from-scratch revision, focusing on the themes and mechanics that comprise each job distinctly, plus or minus what part you actually want to allow to be cross-classed or role-acquired. -
01-04-2017, 11:15 PMLeigaonYou are right 100%, for this single scenario going through the reorganization process would most likely mean that Shadow-skin stays in terms of name and animation. Though when we combine Rampart and Shadowskin there's a few things that have to go back through reconsideration, even though they may seem obvious, they need to go back through these steps. Coming from a large organization, it's boring to go through the things you know 90% of the time will be the same but there's that 10% that can really screw things over. So I agree you're correct and I think we're going towards the same thing just with different wordings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
So we're going through the re-work of something like this. They both do the same thing, yes. So why not make what they do (damage reduction) into one? We remove Shadow-skin from the page. Now we have a new spot for a level 2 ability. I like Shadowskin, lets bring it back. I like the animation, lets keep it. You know what, someone comes in and says "I've been playing with the animation look at this" makes a few minor tweaks. Someone likes it, now we have Shadowskin with an upgraded or new..newer whichever you choose, animation. Now all that's left is what is it going to do? They give it something new. For the sake of it lets say it gives MP refresh while under darkside, while increasing the overall defense for the party.
They agree, that's good! Someone goes "That's a bit too powerful and not needed at level 2..lets move it" they move it to level 24, and make a new ability for level 2 that fits a DRK and is useful for what they do. Or they could easily switch it, keep Shadowskin and make that new ability something different.
So right there they've made room for a new ability (dark knight has its own level 2 that's brand new) they condensed the clutter of the old ones (Rampart and Shadow-skin did the same thing now Rampart does what they both do) and we re-arranged the older ones to be more useful or diversify as you said. Though I guess my mind process starts at square one with throwing the ability to the side and see if it makes the cut again.
I didn't mean to pigeon hole this into just Shadow-skin, we can take it to Cure III / Stella / Fluid Aura / Feint. So when we re-do these things, they all start at square one and have the potential to come back, or leave..or move to a new position..so many options... What if they do decide to take out parry? then remove Reprisal? Or they adjust parry, boost appraisal or adjust it to a role based? So we're removing in order to rebuild, and it might keep some of the same factors. In other words lets treat these abilities like comic book characters.
Though I think that pretty much sums it up looking back at it, saying the same thing as each other just with different wording and that's where confusion sets in, though you're wording is better than mine and I didn't need to explain all that but maybe that helps where I start from.
That and when I think about these being reworked I'm picture three people in a cube with a pot of coffee and a small lil guy named Ozmodiar that only the intern can see. Now its time to hit that old dusty trail. -
01-11-2017, 05:56 PMSylvain
Adding more skill isn't a problem as long as the ergonomy follows.
I'll go for some extrem example to make my point
Let say you had 5 different combo.
One who goes with 1,2,3,4,5
One who goes with 1,2,6,7,8
One who goes with 1,2,9,10,12
One who goes with 1,6,9,12,13
and finally one with 1,6,9,12,1
I effectively putted 12 skills here. However, you can squeeze that into a much smaller amount of keybind. Let's assume skill can change as they go through the chain of combo like in GW2.
First combo could be squeezed into one single key. You would advance through 5 different animation, every one of them doing something different (be it more dmg, dot, positionning requirement etc...) but it would effectively require you to only press 1 5 times. We'll call this combo A. The A combo is done by pressing A 5times, AAAAA
the second combo has a different path on the third hit but then stay linear. We'll squeesh all 6-7-8 key into one new B slot.
The B combo would effectively be done by pressing AABBB
The third combo follows the same rule as B, so we can have the C combo being done with AACCC
The fourth combo start with A, then follow with 6 which was the first number for B, and is followed by 9 being the first skill for C
The fourth combo then has two new skill that we'll squeeze into the D chain. Effectively making the fourth combo, ABCDD
Finally the last combo goes with ABCDA
In the end, we only used 4 keybind, A,B,C,D to to 5 different combo with a grand total of 12 different animation and effects.
By applying this system you could easily transform most melee combo into only 3skills.
For instance on the ninja, it could easily be squished into 3 skills.
AAA - main dmg
ABB - DoT
ABC - refresh duration
ACC - apply weakness
Doing so wouldn't make the rotation easier, it would just remove unnecassary skill bloat. doing 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 isn't harder than doing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 -
01-16-2017, 10:54 AMEkimmak
For the most part, any skill that I don't need often I'll just click manually. But for skills I use a lot, like a combo, I'll use some combination of 1, 3, ctrl-4, or 1, 3, ctrl-shift-4.
I also have a multi-button mouse, so I can tie some skills to that, as well. -
01-17-2017, 02:23 AMKaerisKlyne
I'm still of the opinion that the dev team shouldn't be afraid of just flat out replacing older skills with newer skills beyond certain level increments. It wouldn't outright change rotations, we wouldn't need more buttons, but the new animations and increased potencies for higher level content would be a welcome change visually to how things play out on screen.
But, this ties into how I feel about job diversity, and that's a whole other matter. Black Mage will probably always be my best example of how things almost went in a great direction with skill replacement, but then took a step back by not having it's IV spells refresh Astral/Umbral just to make Enochian work. -
01-17-2017, 06:51 AMEkimmak
I will admit, it would be nice if skills were replaced literally, rather than just being "everything this does, but better."
I had to assign an entire quickbar to being "everything on scholar quickbar #1, except replaced Ruin with Broil". I might make a macro like I did for Dreadwyrm trance to switch between the two as needed. -
01-19-2017, 09:20 PMReynhartFor me, it could be a problem to see exactly where you are in a combo chain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
The easiest solution would to put each combo on a single key. So, for PLD :
1>2>3 would be 1>1>1
1>4>5 would be 2>2>2
1>2>6 would be 3>3>3. -
01-24-2017, 07:13 PMSylvainWell at this point there is no real "combo" anymore. (Not that I would mind I don't like the combo mechanic)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
But I believe that people who like the combo system enjoy the whole skill-chain.
If your 3 combo are either 111 222 and 333 you've no more chain... -
01-24-2017, 07:52 PMMirch
u push more buttons, simply
-
01-24-2017, 07:56 PMReynhartWell, you techically still have since a miss or a timeout will have you back to the beginning. It would also allow you to interrupt a combo if, for some reason, you need to start a different one on the fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
On a sidenote, I wonder how we could do MNK without greatly changing Perfect Balance. -
01-29-2017, 03:57 AMShurrikhanDoes seem the the hypothetical question of the pre-expansion... Sadly the only ways I can imagine at the moment are all rather convoluted, and do greatly adjust Perfect Balance:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
1. Perfect Balance makes Form Shift oGCD, with no animation time. Stance is not automatically changed within Perfect Balance. So, if you wanted to do a typical Demo, Snap, Snap, Dragon, Twin, Snap/ToD opener, you would simply open in Coeurl, Demo, PB, FSx2, Snap, Snap, FS, Dragon, FS, Twin, FS-Snap / ToD. Yes, not ideal.
2. You use Perfect Balance and/or Internal Release as a way to manipulate a new set of "Fists"-dependent mechanics, which each can have a side-effect similar to what you'd be looking for in order to accelerate an opener as per Perfect Balance. For instance, each Fists ability would carry not only a combat-viable passive but might also have a potential proc or embedded spender ability that can empower or redouble your attacks (again, in a way that would accelerate your rotation, especially in the opener), and Perfect Balance or Internal Release would then double those benefits and/or guarantee those procs, giving you a smooth, reliable, rapid opener. It still wouldn't give you quite the control of having all 9 abilities available, but it should have a near-identical result, and in a bit more Monk-ish a way.
For instance, Wind might grants increasing attack speed and give a proc chance per hit for Double of Wind*, an oGCD that duplicates your last weaponskill at reduced damage and duration, consuming <resource; mana?> [can self-(re)proc], while Fire grants increasing attack power and builds Smoldering Fist (tbr), another oGCD that spends all <resource; mana?> to deliver a heavy blow. (I'm clearly still working on Earth...) Internal Release would double those benefits and possibly skip any ramp-up involved, while whatever would replace Perfect Balance would greatly increase resource build rates or reduce or negate their costs while, say, guaranteeing Double of Wind procs. So you'd likely open with Wind, pop the PB-equivalent mid-charge before Snap, <double the Snap>, <triple the Snap> and Internal Release for quick next GCD, Dragon, <double if multiple targets>, swap to Fire, Twin, Demolish, ToD.
3. Replace Greased Lightning with a more analog resource kept on a unique resource bar. The above Fist spenders may or may not draw from this resource, in which case the Monk will be a gambler trying to maintain max speed while still pumping out maximal oGCD strikes. Otherwise same as (2), just smoother, especially via less direct priority on Coeurl skills, allowing for more opening freedom.