Deal with trolls or sit out of DF 30m, there needs to be a better 3rd option

So I just had an unfortunate run of Sastasha (my daily leveling roulette) where the other 3 players more than likely were all friends. I filed a report during the run and got a reply shortly after while still in the dungeon from a GM giving me 3 options: deal with the run and perform my job (or risk being reported for harassment myself), leave the duty and take the 30 minute wait penalty, or in his or her own words (exact quote) "or politely ask to be dismissed." To me that is a huge abuse of the vote dismiss system.

In my opinion there really needs to be a better 3rd option especially when a GM is active on the case during said run. I felt that I was the one being punished and the GM was this groups 4th buddy.

Hard to comment since you do not give any context beside the 3 other players being friends. What did you report them for?

So a premade of 3 RL friends or FC members can't run any instance because it constitutes instant and unwarranted harrassment?

somethings missing...

I've come across what I assume to be premades who allow their friend to harass and deny vote kicks on them, then counter-kick the innocent person who was harassed, sometimes waiting until the end of the run to maximise your time they wasted. Yeah it sucks :(

What were they doing that you reported them for? It's hard for anyone to really give you feedback, since your post doesn't give any details of what happened during the run. Other than the assumption that they were friends/in a premade together.

I didn't want to make a long drawn out DF trolls cry baby post but I guess I have no choice here. The tank pulled 10+ mobs twice and kept on moving around not keeping them together for us to aoe down and caused wipes. The healer says "trash tank" "report" and I attempted a vote dismiss but it was rejected. Another big pull and wipe after the first boss and the tank says "trash healer keeps letting me die." I ask if they are just going to fight for an hour or are we going complete the dungeon and the healer says "you're the only one taking this serious here" "trash BLM" (I was playing blm). So it's obvious they all know each other and that's when I filed the harassment report because not only was there verbal harassment but also play style harassment. They never said one word about doing the dungeon any bit differently or gave a heads up like "hey BLM, we're going to have some this run, do you mind?"

Stop wasting your lifeon these guys. Just eat the queue time and be glad you aren't stuck with them for a full run. Life's too short to bother spending the time being upset in game and compounded by bringing it to the forums. Just be happy to be rid of them!

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Originally Posted by Lyraele

Stop wasting your lifeon these guys. Just eat the queue time and be glad you aren't stuck with them for a full run. Life's too short to bother spending the time being upset in game and compounded by bringing it to the forums. Just be happy to be rid of them!

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As much as I agree, I feel their pain when I play DPS. You tend to want to get it over with and not suffer another 30-50 mins of waiting.

Personally, when I run anything with a friend(s), I tend to consider the outsider if I can't get a Light or Full party. It's uncomfortable feeling like a third/tire's kinda flat fourth wheel. When you're in a Duty and everyone else is content with wiping or /petting each other you may want to do something about it, but there's nothing you really can do.

Yeah, I can imagine it sucks. But it's better to move on and not dwell on it is my approach (and advice). But I also simply can't imagine anyone I play with treating others in the party the way the OP describes. If I just had to do a goof-off run like that, I wouldn't have DF add more people, I'd just go undersized. But given the same set up, I'd have just left and maybe briefly vented to my Free Company or Link Shell or something.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

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It's an unfortunate duty match-up for you. You ended-up with a pre-made group that kind of playing all messed-up. From what you just described, I understand why the GM would not do anything, it was annoying for you but no real ground for punishment.

In this situation, you can:

- just simply decide to leave and eat the penalty
- ask to be dismissed
- go AFK, and with luck the group will kick you for being AFK. If not well they either have to be able to progress without you, or be stuck.

PS: 4rd fun choice: Start playing like them, stop healing and start DPSing the tank's target (so you don't get aggro), and of course don't use Cleric Stance :p

Sounds like they were messing about and you were being a bit uptight. Lighten up, joke around a bit, in my experience groups like that get bored of acting like fools after a bit and get the run finished.

If not, well... they're just a rubbish group, it happens sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Sounds like they were messing about and you were being a bit uptight. Lighten up, joke around a bit, in my experience groups like that get bored of acting like fools after a bit and get the run finished.

If not, well... they're just a rubbish group, it happens sometimes.

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He was being uptight? I don't know...

This group was purposefully killing the party multiple times. The "purposefully" part is when it becomes trolling...if they have the intention to mess around and kill the group over and over then they should get a 4th person in on their personal brand of "fun" instead of DFing with 3 to annoy a 4th random player who just wanted to play and not die repeatedly.

The purpose of DF is to get into content to complete said content not to go in and purposefully kill your whole party.

By your logic someone shouldn't be annoyed if I went into a DF group on healer, refused to heal, and also use sprint and pulled 20+ mobs, killed the group and myself, then was like "omg that's so fun!" and proceed to keep doing it. The only difference in my case is if it was only me alone the other 3 could vote kick my rude butt out. You know...cause I was wasting their time? It's something called consideration for the other human beings behind the computers you are partied with. You call him uptight but maybe he doesn't get to play often and DPS queues plus having to take a lockout and requeue might take up a lot of his time.

I probably would have just left and took the lockout since this situation doesn't happen often, but it still does suck when people queue together and be rude and troll just because they know they can kick whomever they want or they know they cannot be kicked by the lone player that isn't part of their rudeness troupe.

I don't think what they were doing is technically harassment. There aren't any rules about joking around on a run and their comments were clearly being done tongue in cheek and were pretty mild.

I get your frustration but this is going to happen on occasion when you deal with any setting where your are interacting with random people. There isn't a perfect system that isn't open to abuse unless you have actual people checking things on a case by case basis and that is extremely labour intensive for a large game like this and still prone to abuse since any time someone wants to leave a group without a penalty they are going to be contacting support if the can.

In reality your best bet is just to follow the GM's advice. There is never going to be a perfect setup that doesn't lead to the occasional situation like this.

Speculations of what actually happened aside, you felt harassed. This has never happened to me by more than one player, but if it did I would just eat the penalty. I can deal with a lockout for 30 minutes. I can't deal with shitty players for any more than 5. Even if they're badasses and will own the instance in 15 minutes or less, it will seem like an eternity to me. Not only that, afterwards I would feel drained and likely not want to group with anyone for some time. But I am only speaking for why I feel the penalty is actually better in this case.

I know it just doesn't seem right that the good player is not only harassed, but also the one to be penalized in this situation. However, the system in place punishes the bad far more than the good and it is difficult to put something in place that bad players can't/won't abuse. You can still report them and should. If 2-3 players are deliberately queueing up and harassing other players, someone needs to step in.

In the end I took the chance that I could finish my roulette by not rolling on loot so they couldn't vote dismiss me but they made an excuse to afk at the end until the last chest timed out and boom I was gone. I choose to take 15 minutes of slow killing exp and a slight chance of completing it over sitting and doing nothing for 30 minute basically. Not much else was said and no further wipes happened after the report mid-dungeon so.

I don't see the issue. There is a 3rd option, it's called the kick feature. Can't kick because they are friends? Go afk til they kick you or do the dungeon for you, either way you win.

(Just for reference, I only advocate the AFK strategy against trolls. Don't actually do this against normal players.)

I honestly don't know where these forums find these trolls sometimes! xD

I've been playing since 2.0 launch and have only ever had 1 troll and it was in Haukke Manor. I've had terrible players sure, my fair share of Medica 2 prepullers, ZDPS Healers while Regen kept the tank at 100% the whole time, ice mages and GB/WM refusers- but having said all that if I were to view these forums without any knowledge of the playerbase I'd assume trolls were commonplace with how often they are referenced in threads.

I hope I'm not just lucky and people exaggerate the magnitude of the problem!

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I don't think what they were doing is technically harassment.

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It's called "griefing".

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

In the end I took the chance that I could finish my roulette by not rolling on loot so they couldn't vote dismiss me but they made an excuse to afk at the end until the last chest timed out and boom I was gone. I choose to take 15 minutes of slow killing exp and a slight chance of completing it over sitting and doing nothing for 30 minute basically. Not much else was said and no further wipes happened after the report mid-dungeon so.

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I get why you stuck through it. I was just speaking for myself because I know that being in such a group would leave me feeling like crap, and it would be a while before I would want to group again since I lose a little faith in people in situations like that. With the penalty, I'll go take a breather, realize it's not the end of the world, grab some starbucks and queue up again. Ultimately, you have to do what you feel is best for you, but I do get how it just seems so unfair.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I don't see the issue.
There is a 3rd option, it's called the kick feature.
Can't kick because they are friends?

Go afk til they kick you or do the dungeon for you, either way you win.

(Just for reference, I only advocate the AFK strategy against trolls. Don't actually do this against normal players.)

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Read the italics and the bold.
The kick feature is meant to be used on for harassment, afk, offline, and cheating.

You can't vote kick a group of 3 out, so if their actions are deemed distasteful to the 4th individual, that 4th person has to deal with potential harassment or leave. If you attempt to be vote kicked for afk, simply to avoid the groups tendencies, you can also be considered harassing them.

SE created this issue by making dungeons the primary source of end game currency, and able to be done with randomized groups. And yes, I know making dungeons locked without having a premade party wouldn't be the answer either. There is no real way SE can fix the mess they made, nor is there any way for SE to make a kick option that can't be abused.

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Originally Posted by Miste

He was being uptight? I don't know...

This group was purposefully killing the party multiple times. The "purposefully" part is when it becomes trolling...if they have the intention to mess around and kill the group over and over then they should get a 4th person in on their personal brand of "fun" instead of DFing with 3 to annoy a 4th random player who just wanted to play and not die repeatedly.

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Yeah, probably a little uptight. After all, in his own version of the story his tries to vote kick the tank after the second wipe.

I don't know, whole thing just doesn't seem important. Leave the duty or deal with it. What exactly are any of us or SE supposed to do here?

Option 4: go afk.
Option 5: fake Dc

Both options let you get away from the game for a short period of time (10 minutes) and relax. All the while you only lose about 10 minutes and some change re-queueing. A significant drop in time loss from 30 minute penalty and change re-queuein.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Yeah, probably a little uptight. After all, in his own version of the story his tries to vote kick the tank after the second wipe.

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The behavior of the tank in this situation is way abnormal. Most people would assume they were trolling after everyone dies and they do it again. Even new players if they pull that much and die probably would realize they did something wrong and not repeat the same action again unless they want to be annoying ie: troll.

I likely would ask some questions or ask them to stop doing what they are doing that is killing us over and over before attempting to blindly kick since I think it is probably a better approach, but if a tank keeps wiping the group (and won't stop when asked) don't most of us consider vote kicking them? I don't see that as uptight...more like...can we just replace so we can actually play the game and not be forever with our faces on the floor.

I assure you also if I went into any dungeon on tank by myself and kept pulling way more mobs than can be handled and killing myself and my party I would get kicked from the group pretty fast. I'd do a social experiment if I wasn't so nice...but I just couldn't bring myself to do that to people.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't know, whole thing just doesn't seem important. Leave the duty or deal with it. What exactly are any of us or SE supposed to do here?

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I never said he had any other choices or that there is an easy solution to the issue here. I just don't think he was being uptight since I feel most players would react similarly to the tank killing the party in the exact same manner multiple times. I've done a lot of content in this game over the last 3 years and one thing I notice to be quite high on the list of things people don't want happening in their content runs is wasting time.

DF is DF yeah, but generally the norm of it is going in and completing a duty (however fast or slow) with other players. When you go in and suddenly there are players purposefully sabotaging completion of the objectives then its kind of obvious why you'd be a bit irritated. Its sort of like going to KFC cause you want chicken and the staff that day tells you "Oh, we don't have chicken today. We replaced it with Beef burgers cause we thought it'd be fun"...Obviously if you were looking forward to some chicken from a chicken only place you'd be kinda irritated they suddenly only have beef burgers because that is far outside of the norm you were expecting.

I don't get the impression that this group was deliberately causing these wipes. More like they were fooling around, playing sloppily and just didn't care whether they wiped or not. Aggravating? Possibly. Harassment? Not really.

While I rarely run into groups this bad in Duty Finder, it never occurs to me to vote kick OR leave the instance. I pretty much just put up with it until the end. As bad as this group was, it was unlikely that they'd add more than ten minutes to the duration of the run, even if they wiped several more times along the way. Just tough it out, and be thankful that most duty finder groups are not so bad.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

In the end I took the chance that I could finish my roulette by not rolling on loot so they couldn't vote dismiss me but they made an excuse to afk at the end until the last chest timed out and boom I was gone. I choose to take 15 minutes of slow killing exp and a slight chance of completing it over sitting and doing nothing for 30 minute basically. Not much else was said and no further wipes happened after the report mid-dungeon so.

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This is a more clear-cut case. I hope you filed a follow up report after the kick.

I feel for you OP...really if those three wanted to play around well they can..but they should invite another fourth friend and not go into the duty finder and waste the time of another player. That kinda is already harassment in my eyes and I am quite sure if one of those people would have been in your shoes than maybe they would have had no fun too.

I have nothing against a little fun or if I am in a group and they ask if they can try out something new or different..if they say it before that and do it the old way if its not good than I am more than happy to try it with them. But if they are truly just trolling around than I have no sympathy for them..and yet after you stick through with their way, which means that they did not have to wait for another player or have someone being afk the whole time, they still kicked you at the end. Such rude people..

I am also a little disappointed that the GM just did not go into the instance to have some words with them, maybe even some warning that they are punished if they dont stop it or if they kick you. I probably would have reported them after the kick..just for the hope that such a bad behavior is punished. If you want to have fun just go into it with four friends..

Does it count as harassment to make a 7 man party, remove job stones, go into Alex Normal, and then make fun of the random for being a super special unique snowflake "ooh look at me, I have a soul stone." ??

Does it still count as harassment if they clear 1st time, because, well, lol it's still pretty easy.

Asking for a friend...

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

made an excuse to afk at the end until the last chest timed out and boom I was gone

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This definitely falls under harassment and abuse of vote kick. Especially if you kept the names and searched them on the lodestone and found they were connected, like same free company. I've done this a couple of times with similar experiences, rare as they have been since I've been playing FFXIV. As long as you were actually innocent, like not provoking them with snide remarks, it'll more than likely be dealt with.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Does it count as harassment to make a 7 man party, remove job stones, go into Alex Normal, and then make fun of the random for being a super special unique snowflake "ooh look at me, I have a soul stone." ??

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Personally, I'd find this hilarious. Until the tanks can't hold aggro because tank stances are all in jobs locked behind soulstones, and if DPS are even half decent, that aggro is probably getting ripped. Then it could possibly fall under harassment. I mean, if you have to ask in the first place, then you pretty much know you shouldn't be doing it.

I'm more concerned with the GMs response. Horrible GM is horrible.

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Originally Posted by Pells

This is a more clear-cut case. I hope you filed a follow up report after the kick.

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I did and made sure to give that GM all of the details new and old.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Does it count as harassment to make a 7 man party, remove job stones, go into Alex Normal, and then make fun of the random for being a super special unique snowflake "ooh look at me, I have a soul stone." ??

Does it still count as harassment if they clear 1st time, because, well, lol it's still pretty easy.

Asking for a friend...

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That's the other thing I'd like to know. It's clear by now that different play styles is another reason for a valid kick according to multiple GM's but just how big does that blanket statement cover?

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

I'm more concerned with the GMs response. Horrible GM is horrible.

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GM's don't make rules, they enforce them. Players not playing the way you want isn't grounds for a GM to do something, the only problem that occured was them abusing the vote kick at the end (Which was after the fact I think). The GM gave the options, even if they weren't the best they were what was available.

Feels like you're one of those people that yell at customer service because they don't actually have a footing to help you.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

GM's don't make rules, they enforce them. Players not playing the way you want isn't grounds for a GM to do something, the only problem that occured was them abusing the vote kick at the end (Which was after the fact I think). The GM gave the options, even if they weren't the best they were what was available.

Feels like you're one of those people that yell at customer service because they don't actually have a footing to help you.

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Do we now think it's not against the rules to ask your party to vote kick you to avoid the DF leave penalty? That response from the GM surprised me the most.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Do we now think it's not against the rules to ask your party to vote kick you to avoid the DF leave penalty? That response from the GM surprised me the most.

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I'm pretty sure acts of compliance in your party have no room for penalty from a GM (Without going to the extremes before someone tries to make a heavy handed counter example.)

Third option is to do a /sit and wait for them to kick you.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

GM's don't make rules, they enforce them. Players not playing the way you want isn't grounds for a GM to do something, the only problem that occured was them abusing the vote kick at the end (Which was after the fact I think). The GM gave the options, even if they weren't the best they were what was available.

Feels like you're one of those people that yell at customer service because they don't actually have a footing to help you.

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Thanks for assuming but no i'm not, i just expected them to be more helpful.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Thanks for assuming but no i'm not, i just expected them to be more helpful.

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Read the italics and the bold.
The kick feature is meant to be used on for harassment, afk, offline, and cheating.

You can't vote kick a group of 3 out, so if their actions are deemed distasteful to the 4th individual, that 4th person has to deal with potential harassment or leave. If you attempt to be vote kicked for afk, simply to avoid the groups tendencies, you can also be considered harassing them.

SE created this issue by making dungeons the primary source of end game currency, and able to be done with randomized groups. And yes, I know making dungeons locked without having a premade party wouldn't be the answer either. There is no real way SE can fix the mess they made, nor is there any way for SE to make a kick option that can't be abused.

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You. Literally just re-iterated my final sentence in a lot more words.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Can't kick because they are friends? Go afk til they kick you or do the dungeon for you, either way you win.

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This isn't an issue. If the majority of a group wants you gone, you should go. Reasons don't matter, it's majority rule.

So I was able to talk to a GM (a senior GM at that) and got an answer concerning the "or politely ask to be dismissed." from your party part.

GM: "asking to be kicked from a duty could cause you trouble, and getting a violation, if it involved the refusal to participate in a duty unless you were kicked."

Me: but it would be ok if you asked to be kicked, they refused but then you continued to participate in the party like normal?

GM: If it was offered as a polite suggestion, then you should be ok. However, please keep in mind that we can only establish the context of a situation from what we can find in our records, so it can be difficult for us to determine the level of participation in the situation.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

Do we now think it's not against the rules to ask your party to vote kick you to avoid the DF leave penalty? That response from the GM surprised me the most.

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It's not against the rules to ask. Nor is it against the rules to kick someone if they ask.

It's against the rules to refuse to play or throw a hissy fit if they decline your request. Your options at that point are to stick it out or leave and take the penalty.