Magic Scrolls - {Can I have it?}

Patch 1.20 is soon to be on the horizon and it will no doubt be a massive patch similarly to the previous few. Controversy has broken out due to how classes will handle their abilities/spells/weapon skills on a certain class. Magic users (CNJ/THM) in particular seem to have gotten the shaft in this situation. The lore behind CNJ is effectively dead, and THM is a class that for some isn't the same as it was in the past.

Final Fantasy has always been known for the extensively long lists of magic a character can have, whether it be different elements, ancient magics, DoTs, or even tier spells. Before patch 1.20 CNJ has roughly 30+ spells (estimation. not approx) now it will have 11, mostly comprising of healing spells. Why? That isn't Final Fantasy like at all.

Since Yoshi-P and team decided that characters will only be able to have 15 abilities/weapon skills/spells between a single class/job (for the main class) it cripples magic users variety. Players will still be able to add spells from a different class but it doesn't change the fact that half the spells in this game are going away.

Magic users SHOULD have that option to pick and choose what they want. Whether it be all the time or for situational purposes. They simply have to have more slots to choose abilities/spells/weapon skills from than the melee classes. The system could be similar to what Blue Mages use in FFXI.

So what better way then magic scrolls? The scrolls can be added to the game by placing them at vendors, notorious monsters, strongholds, raid dungeons and more. This will not only revitalize certain content but also make it so players have something else to strive for rather than blazing to 50 in 2-3 days. Scrolls would have restrictions of course. Some maybe useable by both classes, and others confined to a specific class.

Patch 1.20 will more than likely be great and I can't wait to check it out, but almost everyone can agree that mages are kinda getting shafted here.

{Vote up if you believe they should implement scrolls}

{Vote if you believe they should keep the system as it will be in 1.20}

No.

Also 50 is not going to be the level cap forever.

Also I forgot to mention that there would be restrictions on scrolls. You wouldn't just be able to use "Freeze" on a CNJ/White Mage.

That's one idea, here's another:

Have Conjurer and Thaumaturge learn more spells than they are currently planned to learn. I absolutely don't want to have to buy scrolls again. FFXI was enough torture on that aspect; gil was hard to make for me, and not being able to perform my job as a mage only because I couldn't afford to buy magic was a legit low blow. Let it not be the same in XIV.

scrolls sound like the system for some other game not final fantasy, (buying magic would be nothing new, but scrolls are not final fantasy)

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Originally Posted by grandm

scrolls sound like the system for some other game not final fantasy, (buying magic would be nothing new, but scrolls are not final fantasy)

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Hm? FFXI was all scrolls.

2 points

1) just because something happend once in one game don't make it final fantasy tradition, final fantasy 8 had the draw system, it was ok, it worked. but we have never seen it since

2) this is not FF 11-2, and yoshi-p has said he doesn't want ppl to look at 14 and see 11-2, i'm not knocking 11 in anyway, just pointing out why i don't see things like scrolls coming

Learning more advanced spells through a medium would definitely be more interesting than automatically getting them.

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Originally Posted by Lucifer

Learning more advanced spells through a medium would definitely be more interesting than automatically getting them.

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Maybe an NPC mentor? As long as we don't have to "buy" them like in XI. Players that lack currency would complain quite a bit.

Possibly a mentor. Nothing new.
I would suggest something more rewarding though. Possibly a quest for those more advanced spells. Something to slow people down in their quest to level fifty.

They already have quests for job abilities.

FF titles where you purchased magic via Gil:
1/2/3/7/11

FF titles where you had to purchase them through something other than general experience gaining:
9/10/12/13

FF titles where you gained magic via exp:
4/5/6/8

(please correct me if I am wrong)

Either way, more often than not we have had to purchase our spells, i don't know where this idea of "we never had to buy them in any other FFs" is coming from. Maybe you've only played 1 Final Fantasy game besides this one? I don't know. But if my memory serves me correctly you will notice only 4 titles (and I was being generous by giving FF6 to the general exp, because its not really...but its ambiguous I believe) didn't have the purchasing of spells.

So that said, and since people are afraid they are not going to have enough money (I have no idea why anyone would think that with Leves giving insanely stupid amounts of gil vs their ease of access/completion) why not have ALL spells/abilities purchased via some points function? Ala, FFX/FFXII/FFXIII.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACKFF

FF titles where you purchased magic via Gil:
1/2/3/7/11

FF titles where you had to purchase them through something other than general experience gaining:
9/10/12/13

FF titles where you gained magic via exp:
4/5/6/8

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This is a little misleading.

You got AP/CP in 10/13 the same way you got XP, you just had to spend it on abilities you wanted on your own. (Same with the non-spell abilities. And attributes!) It's still more or less through leveling.

You actually did need to buy spell in 12, on top of the LP bit (which again was earned the same way XP was. And you had to buy the technique scrolls and buy for them with LP as well.) - which is the exact same way 5 handled it.

9 and 7 handle abilities a little strangely, but they handle all abilities like that and not just magic. (Heck, you can find a ton of materia without ever buying a single one, and if you ground out AP long enough to master one, it'd spit a free new one out at you as well.)

6 has spelled learned in a manner similar to 9, so it's strange that you'd list those under different headers. Outside of three specific characters (one of which was a blue mage, though yes the other two did learn them via leveling if you were patient enough).

Aaaand the way 8 handled it had absolutely nothing to do with EXP at all - if anything I'd put the draw mechanics closer to purchasing them; it's nothing at all like the way spelled were learned in 4 or 10 or 13.

And on the topic of buying spells, I'm pretty sure that while FF1/2/11 had you buy spells per character, FF3/5/12 had you buy them for the party at large. And on a similar note, in 6/7/9 you could move around the things that let you learn/use the various spells/abilities between any character in the party that could equip it. So, there's that as well. (FF8's different because while I'm pretty sure you can't shuffle spells you've drawn between characters, you can resign GFs in order to learn more abilities. Hah - actually I checked and you can shuffles drawn spells between people. Oops.)

(Just for the sake of completeness: FFT is more or less set up the same way as FF10/13, while FFTA/2 is fairly close to the way FF9 handled things. FFCC is probably the oddest of the bunch since you don't even keep your spells after you finish a level, unless you did super well on specific stages and could take the magicite orb/magic ring things as treasure.)

No no no no no no no no. No more scroll acquisition.

"it cripples magic users variety" is a lie, btw. If you go to any other FF and take out every spell that isn't a flat upgrade (Fira and Firaga, for example), you'll find that you have far less diversity than you think you do.

Huh? So you are saying we shouldn't have separate tiered magic at the end of your post? Because I use the lower tier magics all the time when its MP efficient to do so. Also to say that Fire = Fira = Firaga (or any similar setup) is silly, they are all fire spells yes but they are all different in power and if you are in fact a MP conscious mage then you would use all your tiers and consider them all unique in the fact that they cost less and deal varying amounts of damage.

I like the idea of obtaining scrolls to get magic, however, that said, I don't want any mage to have to go through something similar to FFXI's tier IV magic spells with less that 2% drop rates on monsters that spawn once every 15 minutes, or purchase them for insane amounts of gil.

But the mere fact that you have to obtain those spells (and I think some abilities that are not directly tied to the weapon; ie: WSs) give yet another sense of achievement, making you feel more proud to have your character, and that you didn't just grind/PL to 50 with little to no merit.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Huh? So you are saying we shouldn't have separate tiered magic at the end of your post? Because I use the lower tier magics all the time when its MP efficient to do so. Also to say that Fire = Fira = Firaga (or any similar setup) is silly, they are all fire spells yes but they are all different in power and if you are in fact a MP conscious mage then you would use all your tiers and consider them all unique in the fact that they cost less and deal varying amounts of damage.

I like the idea of obtaining scrolls to get magic, however, that said, I don't want any mage to have to go through something similar to FFXI's tier IV magic spells with less that 2% drop rates on monsters that spawn once every 15 minutes, or purchase them for insane amounts of gil.

But the mere fact that you have to obtain those spells (and I think some abilities that are not directly tied to the weapon; ie: WSs) give yet another sense of achievement, making you feel more proud to have your character, and that you didn't just grind/PL to 50 with little to no merit.

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I personally love the idea of earning really powerful spells with a sense of achievement. But I refuse to have to buy Cure, Fire, Blizzard, etc.. We should be able to learn the common spells at least. I can completely understand wanting to feel like you earned the rights to use Burst, Quake, Freeze or Flood (Ancient Magic).

I certainly refuse to have to buy any spells. If you don't learn it by leveling, the only way you should acquire it is through scrolls or quests. Not through currency of any kind. This is now an MMO Final Fantasy, not a single player adventure where gil is practically thrown at you.

That's how I feel.

Gil is thrown at you and this is an MMO...

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I like the idea of obtaining scrolls to get magic, however, that said, I don't want any mage to have to go through something similar to FFXI's tier IV magic spells with less that 2% drop rates on monsters that spawn once every 15 minutes, or purchase them for insane amounts of gil.

But the mere fact that you have to obtain those spells (and I think some abilities that are not directly tied to the weapon; ie: WSs) give yet another sense of achievement, making you feel more proud to have your character, and that you didn't just grind/PL to 50 with little to no merit.

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Originally Posted by ReapKarmah

I personally love the idea of earning really powerful spells with a sense of achievement. But I refuse to have to buy Cure, Fire, Blizzard, etc.. We should be able to learn the common spells at least. I can completely understand wanting to feel like you earned the rights to use Burst, Quake, Freeze or Flood (Ancient Magic).

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So... sort of like how they're implementing Job quests that you have to complete before getting access to the bigger and badder spells?

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Huh? So you are saying we shouldn't have separate tiered magic at the end of your post? Because I use the lower tier magics all the time when its MP efficient to do so. Also to say that Fire = Fira = Firaga (or any similar setup) is silly, they are all fire spells yes but they are all different in power and if you are in fact a MP conscious mage then you would use all your tiers and consider them all unique in the fact that they cost less and deal varying amounts of damage.

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I am forced to comment on that point. The ONLY difference between Fire/Fira/Firaga in the majority of games (or so memory serves me, I might be wrong) is merely the amount of Damage and MP involved in each. They are quite literally the same spell, just stronger and stronger. They do not give you any variety at all, at best MP fine-tuning when, and IF, there are even enemies where a Fire spell will actually deal sufficient damage to be worth the amount of hits you take between it and the next.
You cannot call "Same thing but bigger" variety, you certainly can call "Different effects" or "Similar but different" variety, however. Like comparing XII's Fire and Firaja, THOSE are different, because Fire deals damage and Firaja is Damage+Status. Whereas Fire and Firaga have Damage and Damage which is essentially the same. And given they want all abilities to scale (makes it simpler not only on a coding scale but ALSO on a player level, because if you have to choose between "Fire Damage" and "Ice Damage" and "Fire Damage+Blind" (random examples, unrelated to any actual XIV ability) it's far less... Mathematically-challaging than seeing which ratio of Damage:MP:Time is most effective for every spell cast.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Also to say that Fire = Fira = Firaga (or any similar setup) is silly, they are all fire spells yes but they are all different in power and if you are in fact a MP conscious mage then you would use all your tiers and consider them all unique in the fact that they cost less and deal varying amounts of damage.

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As it stands now in FFXIV, you won't see CONs cast anything lower than an ancient magic spell on Ifrit, because there's no point to saving some MP because you really need that damage more than anything else. As it is, allowing some sort of level scaling will hopefully solve how weird cures tend to be across the level spectrum.

The original point I was getting at was this:

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Since Yoshi-P and team decided that characters will only be able to have 15 abilities/weapon skills/spells between a single class/job (for the main class) it cripples magic users variety.

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Magic users don't have so much variety as people think they do, and in no way will the action abilities being reduced to 15 stop them from doing everything they do now, in their own special magey way.

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Originally Posted by Hachi-Roku

Magic users don't have so much variety as people think they do, and in no way will the action abilities being reduced to 15 stop them from doing everything they do now, in their own special magey way.

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And with taking out the large variety of spells both mage classes covered, they have room to add another magic class or two to cover the spells that are disappearing entirely in 1.20.

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Originally Posted by Icecylee

So... sort of like how they're implementing Job quests that you have to complete before getting access to the bigger and badder spells?

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If that is what the plan is, then yes.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Since Yoshi-P and team decided that characters will only be able to have 15 abilities/weapon skills/spells between a single class/job (for the main class) it cripples magic users variety. Players will still be able to add spells from a different class but it doesn't change the fact that half the spells in this game are going away.

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gettig rid of multiple versions of the same ability to put in more unique abilites is sad.

And by getitng rid of, I actually mean consolidating and leaving them in while adding new ones.

God, people are fucking stupid.