Newb Healer - Question(s)

Hey all /)
I'm have not healed actively since quite some time and finally got quite used to how CNJ/WHM works.
But there is one thing that keeps on bothering me and im not sure how to act correctly:
If Tank has 5+ Mobs around him AND there is no DD Class that does AoE damage, should i use Fluid Aura to lower the damage taken by the tank?
If DD takes single mobs and ignors Tank should i push that mob?

I had very very mixed reactions towards using Fluid Aura _and_ not using it.
Halp ._.'

Also is it just me or is "Quick Stoneskin" useless?

If you feel like using Fluid Aura for extra damage, make sure to position yourself so the mob is between you and a nearby wall (if any) so the target won't get knocked back far from the tank's range or on the one that's about to die. Bosses mostly have knockback immunity so feel free to use it when it's up for extra DPS. There are also plenty of other (situational) use like interrupting an enemy's cast.

And yeah, Quick Stoneskin is kinda pointless atm since it the cast time reduction is only half a second.

Quick stoneskin used to be graniteskin. 18% mitigation instead of 10, while other classes kept the untraited 10.

Cross class Blizzard II instead, until you get holy, then use holy. Only blizzard II when the targets add up to be a higher potency than stone (3 targets) And stone II (4 targets.) Bam. You are the AoE.

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Originally Posted by xuxuliz

Hey all /)
I'm have not healed actively since quite some time and finally got quite used to how CNJ/WHM works.
But there is one thing that keeps on bothering me and im not sure how to act correctly:
If Tank has 5+ Mobs around him AND there is no DD Class that does AoE damage, should i use Fluid Aura to lower the damage taken by the tank?
If DD takes single mobs and ignors Tank should i push that mob?

I had very very mixed reactions towards using Fluid Aura _and_ not using it.
Halp ._.'

Also is it just me or is "Quick Stoneskin" useless?

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Just to add on about Fluid Aura, it is absolutely the bane of party play if you use it incorrectly. Do not use it even to interrupt casts unless the ability that's winding up really, really needs to be stopped. This is rare considering that there aren't a lot of devastating room-wide AoEs or crippling debuffs that are used by normal mobs without knockback immunity.

Sudden knockback can easily interrupt line-of-sight for other casters if the target is instantly pushed even a little out of range or to one side, and a few yalms can make the difference as to whether or not the AoE that someone else was centering on that target hits everything or almost nothing.

In short, never use Fluid Aura to try to "save" the tank from a little extra damage. Even if literally no one else in the party cares, removing the mob from the tank's vicinity can make it so that the tank has to track it down and build enmity on it all over again since it continued to build hate from your healing and didn't get Flashed or Overpowered along with the rest of the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

In short, never use Fluid Aura to try to "save" the tank from a little extra damage. Even if literally no one else in the party cares, removing the mob from the tank's vicinity can make it so that the tank has to track it down and build enmity on it all over again since it continued to build hate from your healing and didn't get Flashed or Overpowered along with the rest of the mobs.

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thats what i was hoping to read. thanks :3

Just remember, as a healer your first priority is to deal as much damage as possible while healing the absolute bare minimum to survive. Don't fluid aura unless you can keep the monster in range of Holy.

As a WHM yours is the only dps that actually makes a difference. Army of one indeed.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just remember, as a healer your first priority is to deal as much damage as possible while healing the absolute bare minimum to survive. Don't fluid aura unless you can keep the monster in range of Holy.

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The sarcasm is real, but this is absolutely what you should shoot for as an effecient healer. Only fluid aura when the mob is a breath away from death. :]

I find Fluid Aura much more useful as an "execute" of sorts on regular mobs. If the target is almost dead, you can throw out Fluid Aura + Aero, and if you screw up and the mob didn't die then the mob will just wonder back since Aero will remove the bind effect. It's something you have to practice though, and really try to get into the habit of only using it on mobs that are nearly dead or using it in your rotation against mobs that cannot get knocked back.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just remember, as a healer your first priority is to deal as much damage as possible while healing the absolute bare minimum to survive. Don't fluid aura unless you can keep the monster in range of Holy.

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Truth in sarcasm, actually. I completely agree with the above quote except to suggest that "absolute bare minimum" may be a little extreme if taken literally.

Again, until you can heal monsters to death or otherwise win duties by HPS, you stay relevant and useful by staying busy.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Just to add on about Fluid Aura, it is absolutely the bane of party play if you use it incorrectly. Do not use it even to interrupt casts unless the ability that's winding up really, really needs to be stopped. This is rare considering that there aren't a lot of devastating room-wide AoEs or crippling debuffs that are used by normal mobs without knockback immunity.

Sudden knockback can easily interrupt line-of-sight for other casters if the target is instantly pushed even a little out of range or to one side, and a few yalms can make the difference as to whether or not the AoE that someone else was centering on that target hits everything or almost nothing.

In short, never use Fluid Aura to try to "save" the tank from a little extra damage. Even if literally no one else in the party cares, removing the mob from the tank's vicinity can make it so that the tank has to track it down and build enmity on it all over again since it continued to build hate from your healing and didn't get Flashed or Overpowered along with the rest of the mobs.

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To expand on this very good point with some numbers, if you use Fluid Aura on a single target, you do 150 potency and might interrupt each other party member from performing 200 to 500 potency attacks each for one or two GCDs. On a target that is part of a group, it could be between 200 and 500 per party member per target. While numbers on the high end of this range won't happen until 50 and beyond, even at lower levels this means that it'll take longer to kill everything, if even just by two or three GCDs, and the tank will end up taking more damage because things aren't dying as quickly as they could.

You are NEVER required to fight in parties and especially the raids.

Please do not blow enemies out of the group for 'more damage'. The only time pushing enemies will save ya'll from damage is if it's stop the enemy from casting something like Mist, or to subsequently cast repose to effectively put them out of the fight. The former is normally handled by the tank or DPS, or evade it entirely. You'll have to trust the party to do this, unless they've shown time and time again that they cannot interrupt or escape it. The latter is normally not needed.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

...or to subsequently cast repose to effectively put them out of the fight.

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To the OP: It's better not to do this. Pretty much ever.

I can imagine some bizarre, desperate situation in low-level play with crazy random people that might make you try this as a hail mary, but generally speaking this is a tactic that inexperienced WHMs use that is meant to be helpful but is actually incredibly annoying.

It's basically all of the bad of shoving a mob out of the tank's ability to build hate and the entire party's short-range and AoE damage options with the added insult of keeping the mob immobile for even longer, assuming your tank or a DPS doesn't veto your foolishness by immediately attacking to bring the mob back to where it belongs.

Well, while Fluid Aura to knock away and then reposing isn't good, I have found it useful to use Repose all on its own. Granted, this is explicitly in low level content where people aren't AoEing, combined with a tank marking a kill order and DPS who follow it, but it can make some tricky rooms easier to manage (One or two optional rooms in Stone Vigil come to mind...)

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

To the OP: It's better not to do this. Pretty much ever.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

... The latter is normally not needed.

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YES it's better not to do it! >:U

you can use Fluid Aura to push ranged monsters to the tank. ranged monsters will not move close to the tank, so a group with meele and ranged monsters, or two ranged, is more difficult to tank and you can't aoe them all. pushing the ranged monster to the tank will solve such problems.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Just to add on about Fluid Aura, it is absolutely the bane of party play if you use it incorrectly. Do not use it even to interrupt casts unless the ability that's winding up really, really needs to be stopped.

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I think you're giving bad advice to a newer player. It's an instant 150 potency attack thats off the gcd. He should be using it frequently, every time its off cd. I don't really care about this stigma that you and others hold for the knock back effect of it, then rage when you see a whm using one of his best dps abilities in a dungeon.
OP, yes you can use it to interrupt enemy cast and aoe, i recommend using it on large circular aoe's that would otherwise make the whole party move. Get in the habit of using it when the enemy is close to a wall. Get in the habit of using it like a "mercy stroke" to finish the enemy off. Using it like that will be efficient.

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Originally Posted by ChiiSoSeriouz

I think you're giving bad advice to a newer player. It's an instant 150 potency attack thats off the gcd. He should be using it frequently, every time its off cd. I don't really care about this stigma that you and others hold for the knock back effect of it, then rage when you see a whm using one of his best dps abilities in a dungeon.
OP, yes you can use it to interrupt enemy cast and aoe, i recommend using it on large circular aoe's that would otherwise make the whole party move. Get in the habit of using it when the enemy is close to a wall. Get in the habit of using it like a "mercy stroke" to finish the enemy off. Using it like that will be efficient.

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Discouraging the party-disruptive use of Fluid Aura isn't the same thing as saying that there are no useful applications for it.

I choose to believe that the new player can sort through all of this advice and appreciate the difference between "good" and "bad" uses of Fluid Aura. Training new players to maximize their use of it before they fully appreciate its applications is less wise IMO. No, that 150-potency attack on a 30-second CD is not worth it if it slows everyone else down.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

YES it's better not to do it! >:U

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I just wanted to emphasize how very, very rarely anyone should consider that option. Remember that we're responding to a new healer :)

You have to decide on a case-by-case basis on whether or not to use Fluid Aura. If the enemy is knock-back immune, sure you can use Fluid Aura as much as you want. However if the enemy can be knocked back by Fluid Aura, make sure the enemy you push away will die soon.

If your party is trying to AoE a group of mobs and you Fluid Aura an enemy that can be knocked away, your 150 potency Fluid Aura is a potency loss for your group. If you happen to knock away the target your Black Mage was targeting with Flare, that is a severe DPS loss. You can cause caster DPS to be line of sighted (LoS) which a large DPS loss. If you knock away an enemy, all melee jobs will lose DPS.

Fluid Aura can be helpful for mechanics such as interrupting casts, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. For example, using Fluid Aura to push the Green Golem in Second Coil of Bahamut Turn 4 raid to interrupt his AoE Demolish cast is good. However, using Fluid Aura in Midas Savage A5S to push the pigs back into the Minotaur will cause a party wipe.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Just remember, as a healer your first priority is to deal as much damage as possible while healing the absolute bare minimum to survive. Don't fluid aura unless you can keep the monster in range of Holy.

As a WHM yours is the only dps that actually makes a difference. Army of one indeed.

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Yes and no. Either way, the way you word it can potentially turn away an aspiring healer.

OP, every healer has their own comfort level when it comes to their incoming damage threshold, and it can change depending on said healer's knowledge of the fight. Having said that, we quickly learn that trash pulls become pretty standard and I already know that wanting to effectively cast fluid aura is part of wanting to maximize your DPS.

However, casting FA every time it is up doesn't mean you are using it effectively. When it is up, you look for your first opportunity to use it effectively. If this does not happen before it would otherwise be off another CD, then so be it. Do not use it if would otherwise disrupt the flow of your party in any way.

Basically when I use FA, I have targeted a mob for destruction. Think of it as an invisible tether mechanic. Like another poster stated, it is like using mercy stroke, assassinate, or any other high crit damage at low health abilities. You don't necessarily have to kill the mob with FA, but focus it down after you use it to take stress of the tank. Which means don't use it if you have to use up a lot of gcds to take it down. Most tanks will let go a near death mob that they lose hate from as there is no point wasting a gcd taking it back.

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Originally Posted by ChiiSoSeriouz

I think you're giving bad advice to a newer player. It's an instant 150 potency attack thats off the gcd. He should be using it frequently, every time its off cd. I don't really care about this stigma that you and others hold for the knock back effect of it, then rage when you see a whm using one of his best dps abilities in a dungeon.

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The stigma is warranted. It's a 150 potency gain for the CNJ and between 200 and a few thousand potency loss for the party if you use it wrong -- and most people do. What you call "one of his best dps abilities" is easily the biggest damage loss in the game if the mob is movable. CNJ should be contributing meaningful damage, and there are ways to do it without screwing with the rest of the party's damage output.

For reference, a 6-target Flare is 2106 potency in a single cast. If you Fluid Aura the wrong mob in a two BLM party, you turn a 4212 potency GCD into a piddly 936 plus your 150, for a loss of 3126 potency not including whatever the tank lost over it.