[dev1206] Too many class-exclusive actions

The class reforms and actions list looks excellent.

However, I noticed that about 2/3 of every class is class/job-exclusive.

This is a huge nerf to the armory system. The idea that your character was ultimately up to you for the most part, being able to customize your character as you see fit.

I'm all behind making weapon skills be class/job exclusive. (It was always weird to use archer skills on other jobs).

I'm kind of iffy on traits being tied to jobs.

But having so many abilities tied to jobs SEVERELY limits how much we can customize our characters. I just really, really don't like that. It'll probably boil down to every class having a few "must-have abilities" that most of the hardcore crowd goes for, and everyone will be the same. And at that point, what's the point in having flexibility on what abilities you want equipped?

If they keep it the old way we might as well keep the current skills cause everyone will be the same class again.

Let's be honest, there wasn't much freedom in the first place. DDs spam one or two weapon skills, mages heal and tanks desperately cling to hate. As for cross classing, everyone is expected to use that to mitigate damage via heals or def buffs.

Early on in the game I had hoped to be a Pug/Thm hybrid to be an evasion tank (absorb spells and such along with debuffs to boost Victimize damage) but alas, the content for the "create-a-class" system never was created. Thus we're getting more defined classes to match the content planned.

Sadly, the Armoury system only ever allowed the illusion of choice. It's much less exasperating and confusing gameplay-wise if every action actually has a consistent, coherent meaning, and there's still reason to level other classes for their abilities.

I think there are still enough cross class skills in the list

Cross Class Skills:
GLD Abl. 1 - Temporarily reduces damage you sustain and increases enmity generated by actions executed while effect is active.
GLD Abl. 3 (Self AoE) - Temporarily increases the defense of all party members within range. Generates massive enmity.
GLD Abl. 5 - Increases block rate and grants TP for each block made while effect is active.
GLD Abl. 6 - Increases target's enmity. Traits may trigger an AoE and a chance to inflict Stun.
GLD WS 1 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from in front of the target.
GLD WS 7 - Shield attack. Chance to inflict Stun.

MRD Abl. 1 - Increases target enmity. Traits may trigger a chance to reduce target's attack power.
MRD Abl. 2 - Increases parry rate. Effect fades upon parrying an attack.
MRD Abl. 3 - Grants Absorb HP effect to next attack.
MRD WS 1 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from in front of the target.
MRD WS 3 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from the right or left of the target.
MRD WS 6 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Heavy when executed from behind the target.
MRD WS 9 (Frontal AoE) - Attacks targets in a cone before you. Can only be used immediately after parrying an attack.

PUG Abl. 1 - Restores HP.
PUG Abl. 2 - Makes your next attack a crit when executed from behind the target. Traits may trigger INT bonus.
PUG Abl. 4 - Increases evasion and restores MP when an attack is evaded. Effect fades upon evading an attack or after a certain period of time elapses.
PGL WS 1 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from in front of the target.
PGL WS 2 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Blind when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: PGL WS 1, Bonus: Increased damage.
PGL WS 5 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Stun when executed from behind the target.
PGL WS 7 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: PGL WS 6, Bonus: Increased damage.

LNC Abl. 1 - Grants TP. TP does not diminish out of combat while effect is active.
LNC Abl. 5 - Sacrifices HP to increase damage of next attack.
LNC Abl. 6 - Sacrifices HP to reduce recast time of next weaponskill.
LNC WS 1 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from in front of the target.
LNC WS 2 (Self AoE) - AoE attack.Combo: LNC WS 1, Bonus: Chance to inflict Stun.
LNC WS 4 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Stun when target is attacking you.Combo: LNC WS 1, Bonus: Increased Stun duration.
LNC WS 5 - Melee attack with low accuracy. Crit rate increased when executed from behind the target.
LNC WS 6 - Melee attack with low accuracy. Damage increased when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: LNC WS 5, Bonus: Increased crit rate.
LNC WS 8 - Melee attack. Can only be used immediately after missing an attack.

ARC Abl. 1 - Increases accuracy.
ARC Abl. 2 - Reduces enmity and increases TP generated by next action.
ARC Abl. 3 - Consumes MP to evade a single ranged or magic attack.
ARC Abl. 4 - Reduces enmity.
ARC WS 2 - Ranged attack. Chance to inflict Heavy.Combo: WS 1, Bonus: Increased Heavy duration.

CON Abl. 1 - Grants AoE to next enhancing magic spell, but increases cast time.
CON Abl. 2 - Temporarily halves enmity and gradually restores MP.
CON Mag. 1 - Restores a portion of the target's HP.
CON Mag. 4 - Resurrects the target. Traits may trigger prevention of Weakness and Brink of Death effects.
CON Mag. 5 - Creates a barrier around the target that prevents a fixed amount of damage.
CON Mag. 6 (Target AoE) - Increases the defense of all party members within range of the target.
CON Mag. 8 - Deals wind damage to the target. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
CON Mag. 10 - Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

THM Abl. 1 - Increases magic accuracy of next spell.
THM Abl. 2 - Increases range of next spell.
THM Abl. 3 - Gradually increases magic crit rate. Effect fades upon a successful crit.
THM Abl. 5 - Reduces MP cost of next attack magic spell by half, and restores MP when cast is complete.
THM Mag. 2 - Restores MP in proportion to damage sustained. Casts cannot be interrupted while effect is active.
THM Mag. 5 (Target AoE) - Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.
THM Mag. 6 (Target AoE) - Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.Combo: THM Magic 5, Bonus: Reduced cast time.
THM Mag. 8 - Deals lightning damage to target.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Let's be honest, there wasn't much freedom in the first place. DDs spam one or two weapon skills, mages heal and tanks desperately cling to hate. As for cross classing, everyone is expected to use that to mitigate damage via heals or def buffs.

Early on in the game I had hoped to be a Pug/Thm hybrid to be an evasion tank (absorb spells and such along with debuffs to boost Victimize damage) but alas, the content for the "create-a-class" system never was created. Thus we're getting more defined classes to match the content planned.

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jesus dude nice sig.

Good, I would be happy if every spell and ability was class exclusive, screw thats shitty armoury system.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Good, I would be happy if every spell and ability was class exclusive, screw thats shitty armoury system.

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hahah really? i already see 5 abilities rom CNJ that are going on my THM that will NEVER leave my action bar.

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Originally Posted by Llewelyn

However, I noticed that about 2/3 of every class is class/job-exclusive.

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That's kinda the point.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Good, I would be happy if every spell and ability was class exclusive, screw thats shitty armoury system.

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This. I am glad at least they made a lot exclusive :) Makes the classes feel more unique! Also means less stuff I have to level simply for a "sub" >.> lol

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

hahah really? i already see 5 abilities rom CNJ that are going on my THM that will NEVER leave my action bar.

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Well Elemental spells aside obviously, I'm not even sure why they gave Stone and Aero to CON unless it was some strange attempt at making whitemage similar to the old school ones.

There is the possibility that CON will lose those spells when they equip the whitemage job.

Yes 2/3 of the skills are exclusive...it's a good thing. No more of this 'everyone is a beautiful unique snowflake' crap. As soon as we get past that illusion we can actually have engaging fights on a regular basis and not just on gimicky boss fights that require special AI and movesets. (note this isn't a dig at the Ifrit fight, I'd just like regular fights to be less dull)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Well Elemental spells aside obviously.

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hmmm i think the reply button is acting weird for me

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Originally Posted by Felis

I think there are still enough cross class skills in the list

Cross Class Skills:
GLD Abl. 1 - Temporarily reduces damage you sustain and increases enmity generated by actions executed while effect is active.
GLD Abl. 3 (Self AoE) - Temporarily increases the defense of all party members within range. Generates massive enmity.
GLD Abl. 5 - Increases block rate and grants TP for each block made while effect is active.
GLD Abl. 6 - Increases target's enmity. Traits may trigger an AoE and a chance to inflict Stun.
GLD WS 1 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from in front of the target.
GLD WS 7 - Shield attack. Chance to inflict Stun.

MRD Abl. 1 - Increases target enmity. Traits may trigger a chance to reduce target's attack power.
MRD Abl. 2 - Increases parry rate. Effect fades upon parrying an attack.
MRD Abl. 3 - Grants Absorb HP effect to next attack.
MRD WS 1 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from in front of the target.
MRD WS 3 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from the right or left of the target.
MRD WS 6 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Heavy when executed from behind the target.
MRD WS 9 (Frontal AoE) - Attacks targets in a cone before you. Can only be used immediately after parrying an attack.

PUG Abl. 1 - Restores HP.
PUG Abl. 2 - Makes your next attack a crit when executed from behind the target. Traits may trigger INT bonus.
PUG Abl. 4 - Increases evasion and restores MP when an attack is evaded. Effect fades upon evading an attack or after a certain period of time elapses.
PGL WS 1 - Melee attack. Damage increased when executed from in front of the target.
PGL WS 2 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Blind when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: PGL WS 1, Bonus: Increased damage.
PGL WS 5 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Stun when executed from behind the target.
PGL WS 7 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: PGL WS 6, Bonus: Increased damage.

LNC Abl. 1 - Grants TP. TP does not diminish out of combat while effect is active.
LNC Abl. 5 - Sacrifices HP to increase damage of next attack.
LNC Abl. 6 - Sacrifices HP to reduce recast time of next weaponskill.
LNC WS 1 - Melee attack. Accuracy increased when executed from in front of the target.
LNC WS 2 (Self AoE) - AoE attack.Combo: LNC WS 1, Bonus: Chance to inflict Stun.
LNC WS 4 - Melee attack. Chance to inflict Stun when target is attacking you.Combo: LNC WS 1, Bonus: Increased Stun duration.
LNC WS 5 - Melee attack with low accuracy. Crit rate increased when executed from behind the target.
LNC WS 6 - Melee attack with low accuracy. Damage increased when executed from the right or left of the target.Combo: LNC WS 5, Bonus: Increased crit rate.
LNC WS 8 - Melee attack. Can only be used immediately after missing an attack.

ARC Abl. 1 - Increases accuracy.
ARC Abl. 2 - Reduces enmity and increases TP generated by next action.
ARC Abl. 3 - Consumes MP to evade a single ranged or magic attack.
ARC Abl. 4 - Reduces enmity.
ARC WS 2 - Ranged attack. Chance to inflict Heavy.Combo: WS 1, Bonus: Increased Heavy duration.

CON Abl. 1 - Grants AoE to next enhancing magic spell, but increases cast time.
CON Abl. 2 - Temporarily halves enmity and gradually restores MP.
CON Mag. 1 - Restores a portion of the target's HP.
CON Mag. 4 - Resurrects the target. Traits may trigger prevention of Weakness and Brink of Death effects.
CON Mag. 5 - Creates a barrier around the target that prevents a fixed amount of damage.
CON Mag. 6 (Target AoE) - Increases the defense of all party members within range of the target.
CON Mag. 8 - Deals wind damage to the target. Chance to inflict DoT effect.
CON Mag. 10 - Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

THM Abl. 1 - Increases magic accuracy of next spell.
THM Abl. 2 - Increases range of next spell.
THM Abl. 3 - Gradually increases magic crit rate. Effect fades upon a successful crit.
THM Abl. 5 - Reduces MP cost of next attack magic spell by half, and restores MP when cast is complete.
THM Mag. 2 - Restores MP in proportion to damage sustained. Casts cannot be interrupted while effect is active.
THM Mag. 5 (Target AoE) - Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.
THM Mag. 6 (Target AoE) - Deals fire damage to all enemies within range of the target.Combo: THM Magic 5, Bonus: Reduced cast time.
THM Mag. 8 - Deals lightning damage to target.

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Weapon SKills do not count. If anything, those are the ones that should not be Cross Classable. They should be linked to the, y'know, Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Well Elemental spells aside obviously, I'm not even sure why they gave Stone and Aero to whitemage unless it was some strange attempt at making whitemage similar to the old school ones.

There is the possibility that CNJ will lose those spells when they equip the whitemage job.

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but i wont be playing BLM that often, so why would i say anything to that?

and did they say you cant use aaaany cross class abilities if your in job form?
either way, the only time ill be BLM is when i want to spam nukes in the rare party occasion... soooooooo

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

but i wont be playing BLM that often, so why would i say anything to that?

and did they say you cant use aaaany cross class abilities if your in job form?
either way, the only time ill be BLM is when i want to spam nukes in the rare party occasion... soooooooo

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Hmm I suspect that end game content people will expect you to switch to a job, hard to say I guess and each to their own :D

Lets not forget that blm will get extra traits not only for extra mana no doubt but increased spell potency as well.

If you are in a full party I see no reason to stay as THM.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Hmm I suspect that end game content people will expect you to switch to a job, hard to say I guess and each to their own :D

Lets not forget that blm will get extra traits not only for extra mana no doubt but increased spell potency as well.

If you are in a full party I see no reason to stay as THM.

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lol why are you assuming id constantly be in a party? i solo most of the time and am not looking forward to endgame until 2.0... thanks for asking.

also you didnt answer my question, did they ever say cross classed abilities will be blocked out when in job form?
also if you look at the list, most of the abilities are for classes, so if your in job form according to one of your last posts, if your WHM youd literally only have access to whm abiliites, which there are how many?
im preeeety sure youd have access to some of your class abilities when in job form.

also, has anyone found the "increased magic range" to be effective? id immediately trade that in for a "increases magic potency for next spell" if i had the chance.

why? their whole point of this is to keep class uniqeness. ill be damned if a WHM rolls up thinking it can even relatively keep up with my nuking.
i was a SCH in FFXI and i actually agreed that i should not have been able to keep up with some of the best BLMS i came across, i felt kinda bad for them and in return they often hated SCHs in their camps.

The changes are a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

lol why are you assuming id constantly be in a party? i solo most of the time and am not looking forward to endgame until 2.0... thanks for asking.

also you didnt answer my question, did they ever say cross classed abilities will be blocked out when in job form?
also if you look at the list, most of the abilities are for classes, so if your in job form according to one of your last posts, if your WHM youd literally only have access to whm abiliites, which there are how many?
im preeeety sure youd have access to some of your class abilities when in job form.

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NO I never said that ..

I am "assuming" that whitemage and blackmage or whatever will have certain spells avalible to them covering both classes that are required to gain the quest/job stone.

For example blackmage will have a mix of both thm and con spells suited to damage dealing and whitemage will have the healing spells.

There is a good chance the BLM will get use of Stone and Areo for that reason, although looking at it from the other perspective thm doesn't really have much to give whitemage /shrugs

Job skills seem aditional.

I assume (yet again)
That as a class you get the 15 class skills + 10 cross class skills. (this has been confirmed)
As a job you could get the 15 class skills plus the additional 4-5 job skills.
or
You could get the 4-5 job skills plus other skills that SE want that job to have. (most likely taken from the class which is linked to that job)

Whitemage example.
Remove CNJ Abl. 3, Mag 8,9,10 and 11 and you have your 15 spells.

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Originally Posted by Llewelyn

The class reforms and actions list looks excellent.

However, I noticed that about 2/3 of every class is class/job-exclusive.

This is a huge nerf to the armory system. The idea that your character was ultimately up to you for the most part, being able to customize your character as you see fit.

I'm all behind making weapon skills be class/job exclusive. (It was always weird to use archer skills on other jobs).

I'm kind of iffy on traits being tied to jobs.

But having so many abilities tied to jobs SEVERELY limits how much we can customize our characters. I just really, really don't like that. It'll probably boil down to every class having a few "must-have abilities" that most of the hardcore crowd goes for, and everyone will be the same. And at that point, what's the point in having flexibility on what abilities you want equipped?

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The armoury system was never up to you how to play, it was DDs MUST use x, y, z skills if you dont have these you cannot run with us, there was no freedom because of how the community is.

Having the majority of actions class exclusive introduces class uniqueness, right now the only reason to play a specific class is either stats (GLD/MRD tanking) or the range of attacks (PUG gets hit by ifrit's sear because they have to be really close to the mob, whereas LNC can avoid it at max distance) apart from those there is no reason to lvl say MRD over LNC because I can just equip the majoroty of MRD skills on my LNC.

If they kept it like it is now they might as well just say "The number of classes has been reduced to 4, Attacker, Tank, Healer and Nuker" because basicly that is what it is like now, there are too many actions you can equip to any class.

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Originally Posted by Llewelyn

The class reforms and actions list looks excellent.

However, I noticed that about 2/3 of every class is class/job-exclusive.

This is a huge nerf to the armory system. The idea that your character was ultimately up to you for the most part, being able to customize your character as you see fit.

I'm all behind making weapon skills be class/job exclusive. (It was always weird to use archer skills on other jobs).

I'm kind of iffy on traits being tied to jobs.

But having so many abilities tied to jobs SEVERELY limits how much we can customize our characters. I just really, really don't like that. It'll probably boil down to every class having a few "must-have abilities" that most of the hardcore crowd goes for, and everyone will be the same. And at that point, what's the point in having flexibility on what abilities you want equipped?

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I agree with you, the new system already force player to have equipped their class abilities/spells, we could have greater freedom for the cross-class portion of our abilities. :D

There's too little class exclusive skills to be honest, but we don't have a list of brand new spells and skills yet so there may be more exclusive skills on the way. Freedom is nice and all, but it can't be balanced nor can you define a class without a gimmick if everyone can equip 90% of the obtainable skills in game on any class.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

There's too little class exclusive skills to be honest, but we don't have a list of brand new spells and skills yet so there may be more exclusive skills on the way. Freedom is nice and all, but it can't be balanced nor can you define a class without a gimmick if everyone can equip 90% of the obtainable skills in game on any class.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

I'm with having more exclusive actions for the classes. Some people who have been around long enough may remember topics that said there wasn't enough diversity between everything.



I'm sort of in agreement with this, depending on the level of the linkshell you look at. R45 dungeon had people that wanted everyone with the Archer quick move to help speed run the area, Ifrit may have needed people with Gladiator up to level for Sentinel so they could avoid more of Hellfire's damage. Then look at other abilities that bolster damage output or survivability that probably spread from 2-3 different classes (Featherfoot, Second Wind, Bloodbath, Ferocity/Raging Strike, Invigorate...). It's like it went from FFXI's style to having some subjobs needed for 1 class, to almost all subjobs needed for 1 class.

Let the diversity come, let each class feel like it can contribute in it's own way.

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Exactly, I dont wanna be foreced to lvl a class I dont enjoy to 50 for that one ability that is "required" for xxx fight.

Also it may make healers need to heal DDs rather than heal the tank only and DDs have to heal themselves, depending on how gimped cures are cross classed.

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Originally Posted by Shikaree

It's like it went from FFXI's style to having some subjobs needed for 1 class, to almost all subjobs needed for 1 class.

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This!
/10char

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Exactly, I dont wanna be foreced to lvl a class I dont enjoy to 50 for that one ability that is "required" for xxx fight.

Also it may make healers need to heal DDs rather than heal the tank only and DDs have to heal themselves, depending on how gimped cures are cross classed.

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If you're talking about the upcoming changes, I think they mentioned the skills' potency will be scaled based on the level of your active class.
That's also why they put the limit to cross-class skill at 10, I think.

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Originally Posted by Atlas

If you're talking about the upcoming changes, I think they mentioned the skills' potency will be scaled based on the level of your active class.
That's also why they put the limit to cross-class skill at 10, I think.

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But then theres also the stats, a LNC/MRD/PUG will always have less mnd than a CON and no healing magic potency gear/materia, i'm not sure on the formulae but that should nerf heals off DDs alot, also they could be changing the spells so stats have a bigger impact on potency, not sure on the last one but it is a possibility which would nerf DD cures alot.

Job/subjob again = win