The more damage a main tank takes, the more healing he must receive in order to survive. In a raid setting, if a healer spends more time healing the main tank, the less time he can spend DPSing. As such, I'm guessing there's a tradeoff between tank and healer damage, where increased damage on the tank's end corresponds to a decrease in damage on the healer's end.
My question is this: What do you guys find to be the best way to maximize healer + tank dps? Do the healers and tanks both deal more combined damage when the main tank is tanky (always has tank stance up), or do they deal more combined damage when the main tank is maximizing his dps output by foregoing tank stance?
Of course the situation is more complex than I make it to be; for instance, the class of the main tank will have a major impact on the combined dps when considering the dps dealt in or out of tank stance. This is just a thread that encourages discussion on what you have personally found to be most effective in maximizing healer + tank damage while maintaining the balance needed to keep the main tank alive.
Healer + Tank Damage Tradeoff
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11-08-2016, 06:54 AMDestroyerOfLargePlanetsHealer + Tank Damage Tradeoff
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11-08-2016, 07:47 AMJpec07
Disclosure: I don't raid (yet), so what I'm about to say may be disproven by forummites that do.
The notion that tanks need to sacrifice "tankiness" in order to play more aggressively is mostly false. Because of how encounters are designed in FFXIV, and because of how the majority of their mitigation works, they can afford to spend a lot of time in their DD stance--even while main tanking--without putting too much additional pressure on the healers. So long as they activate their tank stance and tankbuster CDs for tankbusters, navigate mechanics as needed, and keep at least one rotational cooldown up the rest of the time, they generally won't have any problems, and can maximize their damage without straining the healers.
So to answer your question, assuming everyone else is already optimal, group damage output is maximized by a tank who effectively balances offense and defense. -
11-08-2016, 09:25 AMSweetgrass
A single GCD from a healer is about 50-75% as damaging as a tank's GCD, on average
With this in mind, tanks usually have to sacrifice large chunks of their damage if they have to, say, enable tank stance for something. An extra heal or two doesn't hit their damage nearly as much. That's it, more or less. -
11-08-2016, 10:32 AMBrian_
Also, a significant amount of healer damage comes from DoTs. While stuff like Stone, Malefic, and Broil do damage, it's not the bulk of effective healer DPS and is not their most MP efficient DPS.
So, when gauging tank damage intake against tank sustain + the tools healers have like HoTs, fairy, and heals that react independently from Cleric Stance, that means that a skilled healer can easily find openings unless the tank is getting absolutely demolished to hop into Cleric Stance for a few casts to refresh their DoTs while HoTs / fairy / tank sustain keep the tank alive. Healers are not as dependent on uninterrupted DPS up-time as some other ranged DPS. -
11-08-2016, 07:49 PMzuzu-bq
If the tank keep using minor cooldowns (ones not necessary for tank busters) during tanking while having no tank stance active, its usually the best scenario to balance the tradeoff. Cooldowns like Foresight, Raw Intuition, Bulwark, Dark Dance, Convalescense uses constantly duting auto attacks can give tanks a bigger survivability while being able to drop tank stance with ease. Halone debuff for example is incredibly strong but many players don't apply it as Paladin since its a personal potency loss. But in the end its all about talking how both players feel comfortable in a raid group since statics are, ideally, a group where all can sit and talk together on how they should handle fights.
Healers usually have a easier time to heal competent Paladins on Sword Oath then other tanks on Deliverance or Gritless. But its mainly because Traited Awareness and Convalescence are stronger than many think. -
11-09-2016, 12:48 AMSpookyGhostTraited Convalescence is definitely underrated - PLD gets the strongest Adlos out of tank stance when Conva is up. This also means the strongest Adlo deploys, which is pretty valuable when you want to Adlo deploy but the boss is still able to be hit. It also gives you the strongest HoTs out of tank stance, which is pretty valuable too. Traited Awareness isn't as good but it's still pretty alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by zuzu-bq
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11-10-2016, 12:08 AMMirchQuote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
more adlo than a war with defiance? can someone explain me this? I'm no tank but i find this thing really interesting, somehow :3 -
11-10-2016, 12:43 AMSpookyGhostWarrior with Defiance is Warrior with tank stance. Outside of tank stance they all get healed for exactly the same and take the same damage (barring parries or blocks). Convalescence and Mantra are the only +healing received CDs available to tanks, Mantra being limited to WAR only. Convalescence w/o the trait is +20%, but with the trait it's 30%. Mantra, without the trait, is only 5%. So without tank stance and with Convalescence up PLD receives the highest incoming heals and therefore the strongest Adlos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirch
e: I guess I should also clarify that WAR with Defiance is actually still less than PLD with Conva, as the +healing received is only 25%. However with Defiance and Conva WAR overtakes PLD. -
11-10-2016, 12:45 AMReynhartTraited Convalescence is 30% increase while Defiance is 20%. But since WAR can cross-class Convalescence, a Defiance+Conva WAR will give higher Adlo for deploy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirch
I forgot Mantra...they could stack it on top of Conva to go even higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
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11-10-2016, 12:50 AMSpookyGhostYep, the highest you can go is Defiance + Conva + Mantra in terms of personal CDs. Though you don't necessarily need to slot in Mantra since it can come from a DPS, even better if you've got a MNK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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11-10-2016, 01:56 PMSarcatica
I actually won't call it a trade even. Because assuming if healers and tanks are good, you as a healer enabling your tank to be outside of tank stance nets more total DPS than you tunnelling more DPS. I don't have a good data to support this for comparison but MT can get as high as 1.5k from let's say 1k or less in full tank stance, while you as a healer won't get nearly as much as 500dps from enabling the tank. MT and main healer wise ofc, SCH and WAR can barely do any tanking/healing and still be fine, so this comparison is strictly the DPS output as MT and main healer.