Thanks to some super patient DF groups, I finished ARR MSQ last night! So now... Better to work towards PLD 60 or backtrack a bit for things like Stoneskin and Mercy Blade?
50 PLD - fill in cross-class abilities or go for 60?
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10-31-2016, 05:33 AMLyraele50 PLD - fill in cross-class abilities or go for 60?
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10-31-2016, 05:55 AMKazuneHypnotik
I would get some cross class skills, foresight and blood bath are some good cds. I wouldn't really worry about stone skin during endgame as all that does is piss other party members off apparently lol.
I personally use Blood Bath, Foresight, Protect. You can have Cure on there as well but Clemency will be better once you unlock it. Mercy Stroke is optional to but I personally don't use it :) -
10-31-2016, 06:02 AMBrannigan
Mercy Stroke and Stoneskin are nice to have but almost no one will notice if you don't have them. Foresight is the most important crossclass for paladin and you already have it. I'd go for 60 so that you can start getting weekly tomestones, Wondrous Tails, 24 man raids, etc.
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10-31-2016, 08:53 AMLyraele
Yeah, I have Foresight / Protect / Bloodbath. Mercy Stroke and Stoneskin were the ones I thought I might should pause for. But sounds like it doesn't matter so much, so will plow towards 60 and only pause if stuck/bored. Thanks!
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10-31-2016, 03:18 PMFernosaur
PLD is the class that benefits the least out of cross-class skills, tbh, so you're not missing anything at all once you get Foresight, which is the only one that I find truly necessary. Stoneskin is a nice boon in situations where there's downtime, or to help out healers in protecting weakened DPS before incoming raid damage, but tbh if you have it or not won't make or break it. There is no real reason not to get it, so I would recommend it once you hit 60 and feel fine in going back to a low level class.
My Cross-class skills are:
Foresight + Fracture + Protect + Stoneskin + Mercy Stroke
I only have Fracture because it's a slight DPS boost when I do lvl 50 roulette, but not much else. I should take it out of my hotbar in favor of Bloodbath, but I always forget lol. -
10-31-2016, 06:20 PMWarkupo
If you're already at 50 I'd just push to at least clemency. Stoneskin is nice in that it can save a bad party for a wipe, but a party that knows what its' doing won't ever need you to cast it. I usually take it first just so I don't feel so at the mercy of my healer being decent. That being said, Clemency mostly replaces the uses you'd have for Stoneskin, and since its' such a meaty and quick heal you can get yourself or someone else back in the game really quickly so you aren't biting into your DPS too badly. You can usually get two casts off before you run dry of mana, and then an Ether or a couple of Glory Slash combos will get you in a third. It can also pair with Convalescence and Divine Veil which can take you from almost dead to back to full health, which is kind of how I'd recommend you start using those abilities.
Bloodbath is actually a pretty potent amount of damage mitigation, and I'd recommend getting at some point. Pair it with Fight or Flight (or is it Flight or Fight?) and just pop it when its' ready to help take some burden off your healer.
Mercy Stroke is nice to increase your DPS. It's not going to suddenly sky-rocket you to the top of the charts or anything like that, but its' nice to have if you really care about your performance. It -can- have some actual utility in boss fights: Pull an add, burn it down, and finish it off with Mercy Stroke to get a nice juicy heal. Sometimes difficult to pull off if your DPS is on point but then... you probably don't need the extra healing if your DPS is actually trying.
Fracture stops mattering as soon as you get Glory Slash, and is a very tiny DPS increase otherwise. Foresight technically increases mitigation, but by such a small degree that its' almost negligible. Protect is nice if you're soloing or to troll your healer every 30m by casting it before they do. You can't use Raise in battle so its' practical use is extremely limited; It's usually faster to just let the guy walk back rather than hope the PLD has it sloted.
I'd suggest at least Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke, although neither is strictly necessary. You're mostly out of the content where stoneskin would have been useful. -
10-31-2016, 09:58 PMLilLemay
Personally I use protect/stoneskin/foresight/bloodbath/and fracture
Protect can honestly make healers love you, because if alot of people are dying then you can throw out a protect to make their lives easier
Stoneskin cause I didn't really know what else to do
Foresight is a.. meh.. thing it's not really a powerful CD in any sense of the word so you could probably get away with not having it.
Bloodbath cuz dem hp regens
and fracture because it's nice to have a DoT before you get goring -
11-01-2016, 04:18 AMLyraele
Never thought to use Fracture, I'll have to slot that in instead of Raise (my current 5th slot pick). I had read that Stoneskin was useful for fights where you run out of TP in addition to being mitigation, but if I don't need to sweat that then yeah, making progress to 60 on PLD sounds better than going from 25 to 34 on CNJ/WHM.
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11-01-2016, 04:50 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Stoneskin is meh. While I have it slotted, I think I've only used it two or three times since hitting 60? If you have foresight and bloodbath, you're honestly pretty set. Despite what people say, Mercy Stroke's contribution to your DPS is so miniscule... Your stats will increase your dps more than Mercy Stroke ever will.
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11-01-2016, 10:15 AMFernosaurWhile Foresight by itself is nowhere near being good, it becomes quite powerful when you pair it up with Sheltron for physical tankbusters. The fact that Sheltron is only on a 30 second timer means these two "meh" CDs can become a good CD when used together instead of forcing you to use Rampart. So I would say Foresight IS mandatory on PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilLemay
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11-01-2016, 10:21 AMSpookyGhostIt's free oGCD damage. It's also strong in any fight with adds. 11 extra levels isn't that bad if you've decided PLD is your main, plus you'll probably want to get all 3 tanks up to 60 at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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11-01-2016, 10:41 AMLyraele
Yeah, I usually gravitate towards tank roles, so I think eventually I'd like all tank classes to 60 with reasonable gear (I don't really know what reasonable is or how long it takes yet). And I can generally play a decent healer, WHM seems to fit the classic healer stereotype. Not making any big plans just yet, one month in and still obviously a lot to learn and do. I do appreciate just how generally positive the forums and groups seem to be, I haven't had to pay too high a price for my fumbling and flailing about yet.
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11-01-2016, 10:44 AMFernosaurI'm sure you'll be fine :). We seem to be quite similar in the kind of jobs we gravitate to, so I'm sure you'll have a fun time levelling the other classes. Believe me, too, when I say that levelling classes after your first one is much easier and faster, mainly because you get exp bonuses once you have a job at lvl 60, and also because you're not gated by the MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyraele
I hope you have fun with PLD! -
11-01-2016, 10:47 AMaleph_null
It won't be hard to gear up all three tanks since they share everything except weapons. You just gear one tank, and get two weapons for the other tank jobs. There have been patches where the tomestone gears were job specific, so you need to gear all three tank jobs separately other than the raid drops, but that's not the case for current patch.
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11-01-2016, 11:35 AMFluffernuff
Luckily, the thing with PLD, is that they very much SUPPLY the cross-class, but get kind of screwed over when receiving them. so it makes the choice alot easier for a PLD than it is for say.... WAR
Foresight is rather lackluster until endgame when it because a tiny protect on a cooldown. probably the best pick. bonus defense at 60 now is like half of a Rampart! nice.
Bloodbath is a 25% leech effect with a semi-regular cooldown. I only really find a good use out of this in SwO mainly because it triggers off auto-attack damage as well, so SwO does give it a nice bump, but aside from that, PLD doesnt really hit as hard to make bloodbath truly AMAZING...
Mercy stroke is a measly 200 potency and a CD way too high to be reliable to be used when its even usable with an added effect a PLD doesnt have the AP to even make good use of. maybe if it had a better cooldown so PLD could actually use it more and once or twice, it would be better.
Protect..... is honestly REALLY GOOD..... ok, I lied. every time i use it, the Healer overwrites it because apparently my % based DEF boost isnt good enough for them. Protect is good but too redundant. sad face.
Stoneskin..... actually not a bad little cross class. not even lying. but its downside is a bit too major for PLD- it has a cast time. using it out of combat just takes unnecessary time. using it IN combat is lackluster because youre spending time casting- time youre not building emnity, doing damage, or getting your free auto-damage in SwO
The last real picks you could have are Raise and Fracture. Honestly if raise was just a straight battle rez, it would totally be the best, but since it's not... its relegated to sometimes useful in things NOT battle related. kiiiinda uselss most of the time.
Fracture is by far the most situational pick. its a tiny TINY dps increase and adds another button to the 50 rotation. its a good pick for levels 26-54, actually. but after you get goring blade... the jig is up. Goring blade just outright replaces fracture in every way. Only really useful if you want a longer rotation at level 50 -
11-01-2016, 11:44 AMSarcatica
Better still, no need for any cross skills. They suck! /s
Seriously, they are freebies. Foresight is pretty good, i think someone did the math and it came out to be about 12% physical mitigation, good to pair with other 'shit' CDs. Despite what some people say, Mercy Stroke is solid. Throughout a dungeon or instance, you gain at least 1k potency or so from this move, that's 2 FCs you are missing! The rest of the skills aren't as good but they are freebies anyway and you don't have a lot of skills to choose from. I use Foresight/Mercy Stroke/Stoneskin/Bloodbath/Fracture, some consideration on Protect. -
11-01-2016, 12:26 PMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Honestly, Mercy Stroke is only considered 'good' because it's the only damaging cross class currently allowed, despite the fact it's such a horrible execute! 200 potency over 90 seconds... Let's look at other executes.
Misery's End, 190 potency every 12 seconds. That's a good execution. Heart break is the second worst execute in the game, and it's still 340 potency over a single Mercy Stroke! Mercy Stroke needs to go, I just hope SE gives us actually good cross class options, because MS is so bad, I'm honestly surprised people would defend it.
People like to talk about foresight being bad, but then they defend stuff like Mercy Stroke instead of actually useful abilities...
Edit: All I'm saying is that Mercy Stroke is talked up, alot, for what depressingly little it does. I'm sure you could take it off, and no one would notice a significant increase in time spent. -
11-01-2016, 01:27 PMSarcatica
How do you not get excited from free DPS? Overtalking in this case is still better than downtalking. Might as well don't use any cross skills? Over 1k potency potentially gained just because you have Mercy Stroke is no joke if you look it as a freebie. It's practically 100% free with 0 downside and you want to downplay it?
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11-01-2016, 01:38 PMThunda_Cat_SMASH
1k potency? Where are you getting that number from? In raids there's only ever one chance to lay into the boss with it, unless your dps are considerably awful... That's a single 200 potency hit, 300 max. Where do you get 1k from?
Regardless, it's not free DPS. They could have given us something, anything else from WAR and it would've been more useful. They could have given us access to overpower for AoE damage, they could've given us Berserk, even Vengeance! Instead, PLD gets a laughably bad cross class optionI in Mercy Stroke, at the expense of not being able to have other more interesting options... How can you be happy with an attack you'll use maybe once an instance, at most? I'm genuinely curious, what is the value of having an ability that deals such negligible damage you won't even save one second equipping it? -
11-01-2016, 01:39 PMSarcaticaThere are always adds running around. Do you even raid? Stop spewing nonsense like you know everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
Let me list fights with adds.
DUNGEONS (suprise), most extremes, 24mans, most raids including both normal and savage. There are only a few fights without adds. So 200 potency what? And I mentioned POTENCIALLY 1k and above actually if you count dungeons.
Not just PLD has the access to Mercy Stroke. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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11-01-2016, 01:57 PMSarcaticaYeah dude, totally not free deeps. I feel ya, give us 1k potency moves with 5sec cd and everyone will be great at dpsing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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11-01-2016, 02:06 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHDid you really list dungeons as a viable reason to have such a weak cross class? Alright, have fun. Just saying, Ice and thunder mages are also viable for dungeons, as well as dps that don't use cd's, which does nothing to support Mercy Stroke as a good cross class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-01-2016, 02:13 PMSarcatica
What do you categorize as a weak cross class anyway? Take protect then? Lul. There is nothing else to pick, you are just complaining at this point. If you are still arguing just because you don't wanna lose face, it is highly appreciated if you dont misinform players and don't post anything dumb because it is misleading. Again if you want to complain about SE's poor choice of cross skills, this is not the place. This topic is merely mix-matching cross skills that are the most optimal.
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11-01-2016, 02:55 PMRongway
Bloodbath pairs well with Fight or Flight.
Foresight gives about 400 defense at iLv230. It's roughly like wearing a second chest piece.
Stoneskin for PLD is effectively a "cooldown by proxy". There are some absurdly hard hitting attacks later in certain fights, or attacks that leave targets at low HP and ready to die, that healers should be able to handle but you might not actually be playing with effective healers who can handle them. Ex: Prey in Heart of the Creator is a hard hitting triple AoE attack that will kill (at least one) someone if the healers aren't all there, and the damage you lose from taking the time to cast Stoneskin on the target before this attack is far less than the damage the party loses if the healers let someone die.
Protect is for rebuffing people who've been raised. Every Protect that the healer casts in combat is a lost tier II heal. You have infinite MP, so it's better for you to cast it than a healer.
Mercy Stroke does so little damage it's not even worth it -- it doesn't really shave off any appreciable time, since if you're in a position to use it, someone else most certainly has the killshot queued already. It's only there because there are no better options. Especially in the case of dungeons, where your attack just killed something that would have died to the next AoE anyway.
In short, most of the PLD cross class panoply isn't an impressive one and mostly serves to do other people's jobs for them. But these five are the least bad, so take them and learn to recognize when to use them. -
11-02-2016, 12:58 AMJpec07
While I can't say which are the best or the ones that you should take, I do have some opinions on each of the available options:
- Foresight: Increases defense by 20% for 20 sec.
20% physical defense might not seem like that much, but this one gets better with more gear. When you're 60, it starts out only as a 7-8% mitigation, but as you get better and better gear, it climbs towards the 15% range. This is nothing to scoff at. The cooldown also matches up nicely with Convalescence, so you can double them up to provide a solid bit of mitigation. - Skull Sunder - 60CP: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Increased enmity
Combo Action: Heavy Swing, Combo Potency: 200
Skull Sunder for Paladins is a weaker version of Savage Blade that cannot be made stronger by combo. As such, it is worthless as a cross-class skill once you get Savage Blade at level 4 on GLD. - Fracture 80CP: Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Additional Effect: Damage over time with potency of 20 for 18 sec.
Fracture represents a DPS gain for PLD until you get Goring Blade at level 54 if it runs the full length and is not clipped. However, it's heightened CP cost and short duration will mean that it takes a lot of energy to keep up - and especially if multi-dotting, can cause you to floor your TP very quickly. Even at 50, Fracture is generally not recommended. - Bloodbath: Converts 25% of physical dealt into HP.
Almost every PLD takes Bloodbath. Bloodbath shares a cooldown timer with Fight or Flight, and so can and should be used in tandem with it for increased self heals. There are no downsides to it. - Mercy Stroke: Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
Can only be executed when target's HP below 20%. If delivered as the killing blow, up to 20% of your maximum HP will be restored.
Mercy Stroke is a lot more useful on WAR and DRK, whose attacks deal a lot more damage than PLD's. At 200 potency, it is very unlikely that you as a PLD are going to get to use it for the self-heal, so it instead just represents another button to press for a slight bit of free damage (since it doesn't cost CP). - Cure MP: Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 300.
Cure is worth taking as a PLD if you are below level 30. At those levels, character stats don't factor as much into healing potency, and so until level 20 or so, your cross-class Cure will be very similar to a WHM/CNJ's Cure. However, once you get past that point, as Cure continues to rely on your Mind stat, it becomes increasingly useless. By the time you're level 30, you should drop Cure for a different skill, as you won't be helping yourself or your healer with it. - Protect MP: Increases the physical and magical defense of all party members within range of target for 30 mins.
Protect can be helpful in a raid setting. If a player dies and needs a res, you can save the healer the trouble of re-applying it by doing it for them. You can also maybe help cut down a tiny fraction on the prep time for an encounter by casting it for the healer. In most cases, though, the healers will have the party covered, and will cast protect before the fight starts. There is no difference between a PLD's Protect and a healer's protect. - Raise MP: Resurrects target to a weakened state.
Cannot be used when in combat.
The last line assures that you will never see combat use out of this skill as a PLD. It can be useful out in the world or while questing (if you happen upon a poor gatherer who forgot to stealth past that S-Rank, for example), but you'll never use it in a dungeon. - Stoneskin MP: Creates a barrier around target that prevents physical damage totaling 10% of target's maximum HP for 30mins.
This is probably the most useful cross-class skill from CNJ that Paladin can take, because it gives you the ability to apply a 10% HP shield to yourself. If you know a big hit is coming up, taking ~1000 damage off of it at 50 or ~1800-~2800 damage off of it at 60 can really make a difference in how hard you're hit. It does take a bit of foresight, as the long cast bar makes it prone to interruption, but if you use it right, it can really help to mitigate incoming damage. For example, if you try to keep it up on yourself as often as possible on Thornmarch while tanking, you'll see yourself taking substantially less damage. The best part is that, because it's a shield, the only abilities it does not have parity with are Bloodbath, Clemency, and Convalescence. Many avoid it because it represents a DPS loss with frequent usage, but your healer may love you for it.
So there you have it. The only one that most people will agree is essential is Bloodbath. A bunch are usually avoided because they're non-viable: Cure, Skull Sunder, and Raise. Everything else is a matter of personal preference. I personally have Foresight, Bloodbath, Stoneskin, Mercy Stroke, and Protect on my bars. - Foresight: Increases defense by 20% for 20 sec.
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11-02-2016, 10:29 PMLilLemayThat's a fair point, though I don't think relying on just ShO/sheltron/and foresight to take any sort of tankbuster in savage content is a good idea unless you want to stress your healer, dungeons or regular a9-12 go for it, but if you're using your cd's right you should always at least have rampart or sentinel ready. If I recall scrapline in a9s does roughly 14k to me if I use ShO/sheltron/rampart (no sch shield), just relying on ShO/sheltron/foresight there isn't gonna do you much better than simply taking it to the face in ShO. In most cases you're better off simply using foresight to mitigate a bit of incoming damage over time, as opposed to weaving it together with bigger cooldowns for a busterQuote:
Originally Posted by Fernosaur
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11-03-2016, 09:20 AMDarthVella
Raise can find a lot of use in Palace of the Dead. Still mostly garbage outside it, of course.
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11-03-2016, 12:41 PMFernosaurYou're not really stressing your healer because we usually prepare for tank busters too, so unless you take one without any CD or in SwO without a big CD, there's really no extra stress there. If it's one of those cases in which the TB happens as a lot of raid damage is going off (eg. Flatten+Earth Shakers+Tornado in T13 or the Heavenly Heel inbetween Ancient Quagas in ThorEX) you usually save the bigger CDs for that anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilLemay
With ShO+Foresight+Sheltron you'd take around 16k damage, 17.5k TOPS from Scrapline, tbh. Tanks are currently sitting at 30k HP, so I don't see how being left with 40-45% of your HP is bad at all. I'd say being left with that amount means your mitigation worked, as you're probably gonna be tossed a Cure/Benefic II or Tetra/ED/Lustrate after it and quite possibly recover 11k+ just from one spell. If you're too worried about it, combine it with Convalescence. Or better yet, if you're doing Savage you're probably voice-communicating with your healers, so let them know when you're going to use a slightly weaker CD beforehand so they can Virus or shield you. Even then, 40% of your HP is hardly a dangerous situation, specially when the only thing coming immediately after are auto-attacks.
Not to make pointless comparisons, but remember back when Str tanks were the meta? You only brought what you needed for the fights. Heavenly Heel used to deal around 14-15k damage on tanks with 17k HP, and that was perfectly fine. The first Heel could be taken with Foresight and Sheltron with no problems.