Sword Oath

Hello! The people I meet in DF regularly have very strong opinions on whether I should be in Shield Oath or Sword Oath. They usually contradict.

Some stuff seems pretty obvious: Sword for OT DPS, Shield for initial hate grabs and tank swaps.

But, after that, it all seems to get fuzzy. Some healer's tell me to never leave Shield in light parties, others want me in Sword for nearly everything.

So, what is the "correct" methodology here?

Shield
> Damage is overwhelming without it
> Need aggro (for whatever reason)

Sword
> When the above doesn't apply.

This applies literally everywhere from 24mans to Savage Raiding.

There is no "correct" it's "whatever works based on your situation".

A lesser skilled healer would prefer you to stay in Shield Oath so their job is less difficult.

For the most part, leaving shield oath to go Sword is usually okay for bosses in dungeons, but is less adviseable when doing large pulls.


If you can stay alive and hold hate, then whatever you chose is fine

Stay in shield oath for trash pulls. Sword oath is for bosses, but only after doing your opener in shield oath, AND if the healer is comfortable.

Sometimes a healer is undergeared or incompetent, and in those cases it's acceptable to stay in shield oath for a whole boss fight. Otherwise, sword oath after opener all the way.

Like the above said, Sword Oath is great against bosses if you know how to manage your cooldowns and know how to keep your damage intake comfortable for your healers. Don't be afraid to use RoH as well if you feel you need the physical mitigation for whatever reason, also.

at lv50 - sword oath 24/7

at lv60 - shield oath when need to make hate, or to take big damage, or to manage the healing.

at lv60 - sword oath when you dont need the shield oath

Whatever the healer is comfortable with.

Cycle your CDs and keep your eyes on hate. As a healer I want you to be doing your maximum damage, while I do mine.

Shield Oath when it's more effecient (You don't have any CDs and are Mass pulling, since healers will out DPS you by miles.)

On bosses Sword Oath and let the Healers take care of you, so long as you continue to cycle your CDs, after you establish hate with Shield Oath like others have said.

If you have a good ninja, you don't even need to open with shield oath. :]

It's probably been said enough, but doesn't hurt to reinforce it.

• Shield Oath for Trash Pulls
• Sword Oath For Bosses

However, don't ignore your ROH combo when in Sword. At the very least you want to keep the Reduce target's strength by 5% bonus up.

At the end of the day, it's a judgement call. You need to gauge the competence of the rest of your party in order to determine if it is safe to be in Sword Oath. If your DPS is very low, and your added dmg isn't enough to make up the difference you'll likely run into TP issues from the extended fight. As a result, it may be better to stay in Shield and be the impenetrable brick wall while the Healer attempts to DPS.

If your healer is having trouble keeping you alive, then its best to just be in Shield to make things easier on them.

It should rely on your own comfort, and the comfort of your group, as well.

There are tanks out there who can very effectively tank entire Expert Roulette dungeons in their DPS stance, even doing massive pulls, and due to their skill, their healers don't even notice the difference. And then there are tanks out there who stay in their tank stance the entire time and only do small pulls.

Both kinds of tanks can get through their dungeons. One may take 5-10 minutes longer, but they'll still get through it.

As a tank, you have two main jobs: keep hate and survive. Everything else is secondary, and a matter of personal opinion, and group etiquette. Maximizing your DPS as a tank is a noble goal, and may make your runs faster--so long as you're still able to do your first two jobs. And with how encounters are formatted in this game, and with how tanks work, there are many ways that tanks can effectively switch into their DPS stances without sacrificing their performance as tanks.

Should you do it?

That's up to you and your group to decide.

It's a simple matter of priority management within a set of conditions. Here's the bare bones of it for you:

• 1. Enmity: Do you have a lead on it? (yes/no)
  
  If no, then you have no choice. Shield Oath is mandatory.
  If yes, then you can swap to Sword Oath if, and only if, condition #2 is met.
  
  
• 2. Damage mitigation: Do you have enough mitigation to survive without Shield Oath? (yes/no)
  
  If no, then you have no choice, Shield Oath is mandatory.
  If yes, then you are free to swap to Sword Oath if, and only if, you meet condition #3.
  
  
• 3. Healer ability: Do you have a good healer/healer is keeping up? (yes/no)
  
  If no, then you have no choice. Shield Oath is mandatory.
  If yes, then you're free to swap if, and only if, you meet condition #4.
  
  
• 4. Dps ability: Are your dps killing things fast enough to keep up? (yes/no) Further, are the dps strong enough to push enmity? (yes/no)
  
  If no/no, then you are free to swap to Sword Oath. Only, be sure to pay attention to your healer and ensure they are not being overtaxed by your sissy dps team.
  If yes/no, then your fee to swap to Sword Oath, and you probably won't have to worry about anything.
  If yes/yes, then you can only swap to Sword Oath if you are certain condition #1 is met. See above. Stance dancing may be necessary in this circumstance, in which case you can time your stances with Fight or Flight for maximum returns.

That pretty much sums it up. Your party's opinions on the matter don't even factor into it, because none of them has the entire picture. Only the tank does. For example, only the lead enmity target (the tank) can see the enmity table and rankings. So, the tank is the only one who can accurately answer question #1. You, alone, are also master and commander of your own CD's, so you're the only one who can answer question #2. Healer ability plays into it as well ... but that's question #3. As the tank, you'll know faster than anyone else if the healer is up to snuff or not. Likewise, your CD rotation is also a good gauge for how fast or slow the dps are. etc. In general, most mob pulls die too quickly for you to swap at all, so I wouldn't even worry about it outside of boss arenas. However, within a boss fight these answers will always steer you in the right direction. The only exception is tank swap mechanics, but those circumstances are obvious and need not be discussed.

I know I'm going to mimic others here, but I'll say it anyways. I mained PLD from 2.0 to 3.0 with some healing and now am maining AST with a 236 PLD as my secondary. A tanks priority is enmity > survivability > DPS and support. If you aren't managing enmity than you might as well be a DPS, why bring the tank? (You may lose aggro on occasion in earlier content but that doesn't change the priority). That being said, if you aren't sure you'll have aggro, then stick to Shield Oath, absolutely.

Now assuming enmity isn't a concern we focus on the next issue—survivability. CD management involves cycling your defensive buffs in such a way that your HP remains 1) Managable 2) predictable. Being manageable means recognizing when heavy damage is incoming and mitigating appropriately (ideally big damage = big buff like Sentinel). Big damage usually refers to tank busters but can also be a large pull (which can be worse than a tank buster to heal through depending on the situation). Keep in mind with multiple targets hitting you, you take most damage up front, and less and less as they die off, buff accordingly.

Being predictable means knowing how your CDs work and what their timers are, and of course gear and dodging are also things. Understanding the function of your buffs and their timers, you can be buffed nearly 100% of the time that you're doing single pulls in a dungeon, letting them drop off for that last enemy before pulling the next. If you don't have a firm grasp on CDs, don't use Sword Oath unless you severely overgear content, and don't use Sword Oath if your HP is spiking as that makes it unpredictable for the healer, a sudden Crit or AoE you couldn't avoid might kill you instantly.

Now once Enmity and Survivability are being properly managed you can put the third priority into action, DPS and support.

That being said, traditionally I keep Shield Oath for trash and Sword Oath for bosses so long as my HP isn't spiking and I have aggro. Sword Oath as OT, but it's ok to be in Shield Oath until you've become comfortable with swap timing, just remember to manage your aggro. Also be respectful of learning healers, if they seem to be having trouble, stick to shield Oath. To put things in perspective for you, I have a PLD friend who stays in Sword Oath through out the entire Sophia EX fight and is the easiest tank I've healed in there, increasing not only his own DPS but enabling me to DPS or handle the DerPS who aren't doing mechanics.

full sword oath and go solo a dung like warriors do.. and some dark knights too

Go sword oath all the time and if they complain say "paladin is for fite."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Hello! The people I meet in DF regularly have very strong opinions on whether I should be in Shield Oath or Sword Oath. They usually contradict.

Some stuff seems pretty obvious: Sword for OT DPS, Shield for initial hate grabs and tank swaps.

But, after that, it all seems to get fuzzy. Some healer's tell me to never leave Shield in light parties, others want me in Sword for nearly everything.

So, what is the "correct" methodology here?

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Hello Diachi,

The correct methodology is to use what is comfortable given the party and cooperation of the healer, and adjust as needed. If you're doing new content and do not have experience with the dungeon, It's probably best to do your first run in Shield Oath and simply expressing this to the group would likely earn a nod of understanding from the party. For future runs of the same dungeon, utilize your experience and knowledge of the first run to work in Sword Oath occasionally for bursts of DPS in a manner of best practice. Be sure to consider that you are a tank first and foremost, and losing enmity to pure DPS classes, and the healer lacking confidence/cooperation, or barely of ilevel gear to enter could make this not a good option in your future runs. A good example of Sword Oath usage in a dungeon is as follows:

If you are in a period between boss burst mechanics, switch to Sword Oath and punch Fight or Flight to get a burst phase of your own in, then swap back to Shield Oath and use defensive cooldowns for tank busters.

Keep in mind there are some fights when this isn't possible, and a good example of this would be If the dungeon requires ilevel 210 to enter, and you are Ilevel 212 average, you will want to be in Shield Oath most of the dungeon.

As a career PLD the stance I use depends on a multitude of factors:

1. Party DPS - If DPS is shit or there's no threat of losing enmity to them, you can go on Sword. If DPS is great or you lose enmity on Sword, stay with Shield.

2. Healers - If healer's having a bad time keeping your HP up either because they aren't good or their gear sucks, stay on Shield. If they're comfortable, then Sword is fine.

3. Relative damage received - I will echo the sentiment that Shield is for trash, Sword is for bosses, keeping all other factors in mind. This however is most of the time true only for 4 mans. In 8 mans and beyond, you may need to stick to Shield depending again on the other factors.

4. Your gear - If your gear is barely at the minimum IL for the place, you will want to stick to Shield most of the time. If you outgear the place, you can comfortably stay in Sword.

There's really no single factor that will tell you if you'll be successful in Sword or if you need to stick to shield. In the end the ones who will generally have the idea which one is best will be you as the tank and the healer who keeps you off the floor. Take all factors and your healer's opinion when you decide which one you're comfortable with.

I feel a big need to post this picture.

(Right-click the pic and click "View Image" to see it in readable format)

http://puu.sh/lUN4Y/7c008c9047.png