What is the point of "no mods" if it is not enforced?

One of the reasons I chose to play this game is based on an idea that this game does not allow mods or third party programs, but, from what I am reading and hearing, damage meters, parsers, and even screen overlays are widely used by most players in the end game without penalty.

So, in order to play in the end game, I am forced to play cookie cutter because these illegitimate programs are tracking my every move and exposing me for not being completely min-maxed to other players. On one of the promotional pages for these third party programs, a part of the pitch for the program is 'on screen indications to check if teammates are using skills in the right order and on time so you can tell if they are pro or not at a glance'.

This is very discouraging information for me as a new player who bought this game because the main rules page bans mods and third party programs from being used.

From what I know, when they are caught they are reprimanded. The problem is that someone has to report them, and most people don't reveal they are using them unless to people who wouldn't report them. You'd just get kicked if you weren't up to par.

That being said, there's a much bigger problem with RMT bots than harassment from parsers imo. I actually haven't encountered anyone using them myself, but I have seen a crapton of bots running through dungeons and making a mess of things.

I am not worried about harassment. It just becomes a reality of the end game that I would be forced to cookie cutter my build to my role and use these programs myself if I want to be included in anything serious. Cookie cutter builds are just boring and steal fun from the game, but third party programs expose my computer to unmoderated access that can potentially cause damage and violate my privacy or compromise my identity.

Unfortunately, there really isn't a way to play any job in this game in a "not cookie cutter" way effectively. The best rotations, stats and cross-class abilities for each job are well known and there aren't any valid alternatives. Parsers don't affect this fact in any way, and it's quite easy to notice if you're following the correct rotation without one (a parser only shows if you're using that rotation effectively).

Also, while it's true that probably every single one of the static groups doing the highest level of endgame (basically Savage) in this game is using a parser to see they have what it takes to beat a certain DPS check, there are a lot of individual players who are playing at that level without using a parser themself (especially the PS4 players who couldn't do that in the first place).

The way i see it,those tools can actually make you a stronger player if you use it for good.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Also, while it's true that probably every single one of the static groups doing the highest level of endgame (basically Savage) in this game is using a parser to see they have what it takes to beat a certain DPS check, there are a lot of individual players who are playing at that level without using a parser themself (especially the PS4 players who couldn't do that in the first place).

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I never considered the PS4 players when posting. I feel better about the situation now. I am not at the end game, yet, so I am not experienced with what is actually expected of players and, from what I was reading and hearing, it seemed this third party stuff was a must have. But, if PS4 players can play at the top level and they do not have access to third party programs, then I do not have to fear being forced to use third party programs or the game/community being balanced around the use of third party programs. Thank you.

As mentioned, the PS3/4 players don't have access to any of those 3rd party programs. There *are* a lot of dps checks but there is also an in-game mechanism for checking your numbers. Once you get to level 60 you will get access to "Stone, Sea, Sky" where you will have 3 minutes to 'kill' a practice target based on the trial you are testing for. If you can kill the dummy in time you should be ok.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

One of the reasons I chose to play this game is based on an idea that this game does not allow mods or third party programs, but, from what I am reading and hearing, damage meters, parsers, and even screen overlays are widely used by most players in the end game without penalty.

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If you're referring to this part:

"Third-Party Programs or Tools. SQUARE ENIX strictly prohibits the use of third-party programs or tools – including programs and tools that permit automated or “absentee” play – in FINAL FANTASY XIV. Accordingly, the following activities are prohibited:

· Modifying, analyzing, integrating, and/or reverse engineering game software or data.
· Creating, distributing, using, or promoting utilities that interact with the game.
· Exploiting SQUARE ENIX programming bugs or glitches.
· Automating gameplay processes."

I think you misunderstand what 'analyzing' means in this context, clearly SE don't think parsers 'analyze' anything in breach of this clause.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

clearly SE don't think parsers 'analyze' anything in breach of this clause.

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It's not that they aren't in breach of that clause. The most popular ones are (because of how they integrate themselves into the game's client software). But SE has acknowledged the fact that they can only enforce the rule when they know about violations, and the only way they have access to that information is if you discuss it in chat. (Plus you'd usually need to be reported to the GMs for it before they'd see the violation, since just because they have access to chat logs doesn't mean they read it all.) The result is that it's a rule people can get away with breaking so long as they don't harass anyone enough to be reported for it.

(The only parsers that aren't against the rules are ones that rely on you dumping the combat log to a text file and then running the parser separately after the fact and loading that text file into it as input. Those ones don't integrate into the client software or intercept communication between the servers and client, so they aren't breaking any rules. But they don't give their numbers in real time either, which is why the rule-breaking ones are more popular.)

To be fair, most people aren't going to give you shit for not being totally min/maxed to the extreme. What they WILL give you shit for is not even trying, which is much easier to notice with those tools than otherwise.

The things you mention are typically used by like-minded private groups looking for resources to improve themselves internally. You have little to worry about in terms of being called out for build or performance for public groups doing general content. Nobody is going to run into a standard level 60 dungeon and call out DPS numbers. They'd be quite likely to face penalties if they did.

If you're looking to advance beyond standard content you should be able to find plenty of players who are like-minded in terms of not wanting to take a metrics-driven approach.

Just wanted to give my opinion on this subject. Why would players use these bots/tools, rather than just play the game the way it was meant to be played? It seems to me these practices take the fun outta the game. Is that not why we play games, for fun?
I play on PS4 as a dps, but I don't care if I have done more or less damage than another dps, as long as we beat the bad guys who cares?

some players are just "I'm too perfect for everyone" believe they are either Tony Stark or doc Strange so the world must rotate around 'em, so they need a way to show they're mr or mrs perfect.

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Originally Posted by mattyboy77

Just wanted to give my opinion on this subject. Why would players use these bots/tools, rather than just play the game the way it was meant to be played?

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If used effectively, these tools increase performance in-game to a level that is not obtainable through normal play. Some people care a lot about their game performance and that enthusiasm can extend sometimes to their parties, guilds, and/or raid groups. I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting to improve game skills in a competitive sense, but there are boundaries that rules set to even the playing field for everyone involved. Third party tools that are used to enhance game play are unusable by some players (PS4 players) and some players (me included) do not want to play an MMO where these tools are allowed for other reasons. Unseemly players use these tools to get an illegitimate edge over other players who cannot or will not use them.

I would really use some mods. Like when a skill is on combo rotation, a pop up near character would be great. Like "internal release ready to use" something. ESO has them, SWTOR has them, Wow has them.

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Originally Posted by gastovski

I would really use some mods. Like when a skill is on combo rotation, a pop up near character would be great. Like "internal release ready to use" something. ESO has them, SWTOR has them, Wow has them.

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And there is a reason I stopped playing one and avoided the others.

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Originally Posted by mattyboy77

Just wanted to give my opinion on this subject. Why would players use these bots/tools, rather than just play the game the way it was meant to be played? It seems to me these practices take the fun outta the game. Is that not why we play games, for fun?
I play on PS4 as a dps, but I don't care if I have done more or less damage than another dps, as long as we beat the bad guys who cares?

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(For the record be for we I start, I'm a PS4 player)

Do Sav raiding then say that, it a diff story. Gear wont help you if your lazy or crap and cant see why. There a fine line between know how to DPS and just winging it. Most Sav fights push you to the point of WTF! lol

Sure it fine if you don't care, but don't join a team that want to clear weekly to just hold them back bec you don't care. If the boss/Min Boss need everyone pushing 1700+ DPS and the monk is only doing 1400, or a Bard is doing 1600 over the Monks 1400 there something wrong.

1: Your not trying
2: You don't know your job or rotation
(Not say you! just that players need to keep that in mind)

Knowing this can help make you a better player and make you more useful to others, sad but true. You can always test your DPS skills in SSS, but if you want to know if you have the skill to push higher, the tools can help, >.> for them that use it.

@ lulu89. Yeah I understand that as a group each individual has a job and responsible to help the group beat whatever is in front of them. So with that in mind I was in a six player dungeon and another player started complaining I was only doing 3 attack moves. These attacks stacked so I do one, then the second which does more damage than if I'd just done it on its own before the first, and then the last attack does massive damage. In between I will do aoe attacks as well, but to get the best dps means repeating these 3 attacks. Am I incorrect, should I just do random attacks that don't stack?

I report every player using parsers. do the same.

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Originally Posted by mattyboy77

@ lulu89. Yeah I understand that as a group each individual has a job and responsible to help the group beat whatever is in front of them. So with that in mind I was in a six player dungeon and another player started complaining I was only doing 3 attack moves. These attacks stacked so I do one, then the second which does more damage than if I'd just done it on its own before the first, and then the last attack does massive damage. In between I will do aoe attacks as well, but to get the best dps means repeating these 3 attacks. Am I incorrect, should I just do random attacks that don't stack?

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No, you don't use "random attacks". You use them in a way that makes sense. First off, you'll want to do Heavy Thrust from the side to get a 15% buff to your damage. Do that again every time it wears off.

Next, you ask if you're facing more than 2 monsters or not. If you are, spam your AoE moves (Dragonfire Dive when it's up, then Doom Spike if they're positioned in a nice way for it, or Ring of Thorns if they're not (or you got the combo from Heavy Thrust for it).

If you're NOT facing more than 2 monsters, then pick a monster and start your single target rotation. Impulse drive into disembowel into chaos thrust for starters so the monster takes 10% more damage and has a nasty damage over time. Then Phlebotomize for even more damage over time. THEN you do your full thrust combo (and don't use global cooldown attacks in-between parts of the combo, that interrupts it and you WON'T get the effect), until it's time to re-apply Heavy Thrust, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust, or Phlebotomize.

Regardless of doing AoE or singles, use your buffs and off-GCD attacks when you can. Use Blood for Blood and Battle Litany whenever possible, use Life Surge before a large attack (like Full Thrust), use Leg Sweep and your jumps (and use Power Surge before Jump when it's up) whenever they're up, and use Invigorate when you're low on TP.

This isn't even getting into cross-class abilities, or the abilities you'll learn later on. This is also all super basic stuff I was able to gather just from looking at the ability descriptions, and doesn't even get into advanced stuff like timing your buffs to get the most bang for your buck.

There is a WORLD of difference between playing like that, and just spamming your full thrust combo. You have other abilities, learn how to use them.

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Originally Posted by mattyboy77

So with that in mind I was in a six player dungeon and another player started complaining I was only doing 3 attack moves. These attacks stacked so I do one, then the second which does more damage than if I'd just done it on its own before the first, and then the last attack does massive damage.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

There is a WORLD of difference between playing like that, and just spamming your full thrust combo. You have other abilities, learn how to use them.

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Urthdigger explained the basics. This thread still has the full level 50 rotation you should use as a base for leveling from 50 to 60: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...otation-Reborn

When you get to level 60, it's time to learn the current full rotation, which you can find from this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...A-DPS-Paradigm

As a DD, there is never a situation in which you only spam 1 2 3.

Yeah, when people say you need to learn the rotation, what Urth described is the dragoon version of what they mean. For dragoon it means keeping up the heavy thrust buff, using the chaos combo for the extra DoT and debuff, and working in the full thrust combo to get the best damage you can(or heavy + aoe for multi-target encounters). A lot of this changes as you go - you didnt even get your full chaos combo until level 50 afterall - so you need to keep evaluating new skills and traits as you get them to see how best to put them to use. Or read the DPS forum, and see the work other people have already put in to all that. A lot of dedicated people have spent a lot of time arguing, testing, and calculating all this stuff already.

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Originally Posted by Bonkleberry

I am not worried about harassment. It just becomes a reality of the end game that I would be forced to cookie cutter my build to my role and use these programs myself if I want to be included in anything serious. Cookie cutter builds are just boring and steal fun from the game

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So "fun" is sucking at doing your job at the expense of your party members who have to compensate for you? FFXIV is a fun game, but there really is no variation in effective "builds" or anything.
There is the "I can heal through heavy raid-wide DMG and brutal tankbusters" build and there is the "My healing can't save anyone" build. That's it.

If you want to be included in something serious, make a serious effort, easy as that. People (potentially) kick you because you don't do your job well, parser or not.
Having one just makes it easier to notice, but it's not like failing isn't obvious otherwise. If you are worried about people being mean to you based on parser results - UnaLihzeh already said it: that's strictly forbidden and you can absolutely report someone for it.

I find it kind of mind-boggling though how you can indirectly say "I want to suck at this game but still get carried through hard content without getting called out on it" without feeling any shame. I'll just assume you are not aware yet that there IS only one effective way per class to play and that's why you said all of that..since you do not know yet that anything but cookiecutter just means sucking really hard.

Awe, how cute. Did you wait this long to reply because you were afraid I would see it and respond?

First off, you know nothing about me, so attacking my game skills and knowledge is just a childish way of compensating for your own issues.

Second, you clearly lack reading comprehension skills. This thread is not abot me wanting to be a bad player and getting away with it, it is about what the rules of the game clearly state and people breaking the rules to be "better" players and players that do not want to do certain things to be good at this game. To put things more simply for your small perspective, if this game has a rule that everyone should follow for competitive reasons, then the rule should be enforced. People chose to play a game because of rules it may offer. Trying to get around the rule does not make a good or improved player, it makes you a cheater and cheaters ruin the game for other players.

I know of no programs except a parser and the overlay it has. That's it and all it gives is data. It doesn't give an inherent advantage except for Savage groups analyzing their runs for improvement.