PvP has gone majorly downhill since 2.1

Removal of Cleric Stance, free casting at all times, and ridiculous PvP skills like Push Back really shouldn't have been done.

Cleric Stance and interruptable casting made casters/healers really strong in Wolves' Den, if they were allowed to do so. It's currently impossible to kill a healer solo unless they're caught with no CDs/pvp skills available vs an opponent that has all of theirs, as they can spam heals very easily, with no skill required, and live.

This could be amended by reintroducing the "cancel on damage" effect to all casting, but also allowing certain CDs to give a Surecast-like effect. Dreadwyrm Trance, Ley Lines, Dissipation, Synastry, Hawk Eye, Presence of Mind, and other short buffs like those would be just fine to allow free casting for the duration, barring stuns/silences/knockbacks/sleeps. Casters/healers did just great in Wolves Den with full interrupts, this system should be adequate to balance them at Level 60.

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Also, WARs are still stupid broken in PvP, as they have been forever. Please remove the ability to swap stances in PvP combat, as this would fix either one of their massive problems, ridiculously high burst damage, or ludicrously powerful self healing. They're the only relevant class in duels currently due to having access to both, and they're even worse now then they were about 3 years ago.

Also, I don't know why Push Back exists in a game with already overpowered tanks, it's just suicide to engage a tank that has it up. Removing tank movement for the duration of Push Back may solve this to a degree, as the 150/200 potency counterattacks are already insanely strong.

What does everyone else think? Was the casting system during 2.1 better or worse? Do you prefer the system now?

I have to disagree. If you're judging healers SOLELY by their ability to survive in a 1v1 fight, then sure, they're a little OP. However, all PVP modes are team based objective games. Two or more opponents can make short work of a healer (damage from two DPS, or one DPS while a tank stunlocks them). Even if you're the only one attacking a healer, making them need to constantly heal themselves means they are NOT healing their teammates, allowing your own teammates to take them out. Back when spells were interrupted by any damage whatsoever, it basically meant only instant-cast spells were usable.

Shouldn't 1 healer v 1 DPS be equal? They can't kill you, you can't kill them. That's balanced. Go 2 DPS v 1 healer? If you don't kill the healer your DPS probably don't fully understand their skills in PVP. Maybe they're using a knock back as a DPS skill, as opposed to an interrupt? Maybe they didn't use that PVE useless skill they'd forgotten the moment they learnt it?

'Cancel on damage' was beyond daft - It completely overpowered SCH in PVP compared to WHM. I wouldn't mind them bringing Moral back, taking damage while casting = push back casting bar, Moral = less pushback.

There is a lot of issues with PVP but this is not one of them.

It sounds to me like you're basing your complaints about balance based on dueling or something because PvP feels way better today than it ever did in 2.1. Healers do not need cleric stance and it made SCH insanely OP similar to the degree it is in PvE content. The casting changes are very much welcomed as it helped even the field for casters that didn't have as many insta casts (BLM/WHM in comparison to SMN/SCH) and it meant that physical DPS couldn't just steamroll over casters with them being able to do little to nothing about it. Even now though, you can still interrupt a cast with just about any attack that crits and 2 physical dps can pretty easily lock down a caster giving physical dps an advantage.

WAR (and tanks in general) is still the 1v1 king but it's really not that big a deal in anything outside of dueling. WAR could probably use a slight nerf to their self heals but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Back when spells were interrupted by any damage whatsoever, it basically meant only instant-cast spells were usable.

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Yet, healers were rarely killed first. The best strat in 4v4 was to fool a healer about your real target, then kill before any healing/CC could be done, which depended a lot on your comp vs the enemy comp. Only at very low skill levels did everyone rushing healers actually work, because of things like Holy, Fluid Aura, Blizzard 2, etc

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Originally Posted by Pence

They can't kill you, you can't kill them. That's balanced.

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Not really. Healers are the most valuable roles on the team. Back in 2.1, you could actually lose to a smart healer if you were alone because of Cleric Stance. This skill floor has been COMPLETELY removed when they disabled Cleric Stance/damage interrupts, and PvP is less interesting because of it. The individual doesn't matter, like timing skills to counter other skills, just group up and press buttons.

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

Healers do not need cleric stance and it made SCH insanely OP similar to the degree it is in PvE content. The casting changes are very much welcomed as it helped even the field for casters

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Chaining Heavy through Miasma made SCH rough, yes, but was fixed quite early on by disabling the ability of Miasma 2 to cause Heavy. Also, casters are even more insane now than before, SMN's instant damage, BLM's being able to kill anyone in 2-3 Fire IVs, let alone the new healer skills. Casters used to act as snipers in 2.1, killing people VERY quickly if they were ignored, but the Lv 60 sentiment of running up to people for Deathflare obviously doesn't mesh with that very well.

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Originally Posted by Bartleby

WAR could probably use a slight nerf to their self heals but that's about it.

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So disable stance swapping in PvP combat. WAR already has the best burst, DRK best chasing, PLD best CC, why allow them to have the best selfhealing as well?

Your feeback sounds very melee dps influenced. Before you ask for nerfs or start talking about pvp going downhill since 2.1 I suggest you try out everything in pvp: melee, tank, healer, physical ranged and caster. Having played Wolves Den when it first came out it was absolutely ridiculous, the CC actually lasted the same duration as in PVE, and the name of the game was zerg the enemy healer before they zerg yours, which was awfully repetitive.
Caster is far from OP, BLM took a serious hit just recently and SMN is way too squishy, with dangerous burst conditions to be really competitive. I wonder if BLM will actually show in top of rankings anymore even on JP servers.
Going back to a spelll cancelling system would also mean that casters and healers would need the duration of their CC restored to at least 15 sec.
You complain not to be able to down a healer when you are solo, well I have some news for you: it is doable, even when they have full CDs, and that can be achieved by all DPS except BLM. I'm not gonna say it's not difficult or that it's something you can do steadily, but you seem to be completely oblivious that on top of needing to heal themselves a healer has at least 3 other people to heal. Nerf healers and we'll need to shorten matches to 4 mins because people will just die again and again.
I don't think WAR is that OP, most of the time they have good pressure for a few seconds, when focusing with another dps they easily kill something with berserk BUT that's nothing PLD can't do, by stunlocking a healer and stopping any of their heals going off. PLD is my favorite tank to be paired with, when they actually know what they are doing, their dps isn't great but the CC arsenal + their support makes for a much better tank imo.
Push Back is useful and much needed, first off magic is unaffected by it, secundo in stuff like Frontlines, as a DPS I expect my tanks to actually move into enemy lines with defensive cooldowns and push back so they can draw some attention and I can follow them, if I'm playing melee dps. Push back is nice paired with Bloodbath and when you have 4 stacks of medals it's one of those things that are useful to last a whole match.

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Originally Posted by NoelNoel

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Healers kept their entire team healed while dealing with chasers, and even killing people through DoTs/CC and a little team help. The system now is dumbed down and boring in comparison.

The CC change would be alright, clutch cleanses to counter 15s Sleeps was a decent skill barrier.

You must be playing with AWFUL healers if you can kill them 1v1, healers won 1v1s in 2.1, with fully interruptable casting, what they can do now is a joke.

WAR has been decried as OP for years now, starting with MRD, and even after that got nerfed, they're still the single strongest class in PvP. I don't know how you can argue this.

I agree with Push Back's usage in Feast, merely adding a Heavy effect to the caster would be sufficient, as Sprint + Push Back + tank defensive CDs are a bit ridiculous for kiting potential.

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Originally Posted by Pence

There is a lot of issues with PVP but this is not one of them.

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I personally consider the existence of dedicated healers (or more broadly, trinity design) among the biggest issues of PvP in this game, but not one that can realistically be rectified, so it's a moot point talking about it. It's not gonna change and consequently, people who don't like it (like me) are better off getting their PvP fix elsewhere.

There is no time to dps in high level feast matches unless the melee are basically afk. Getting a repose off in a high level match is a godsend, and much stronger than sticking clerlic'd aero 3 on someone. N'oeru is objectivley one of the best summoners on Primal, and he does get paired with or against our better healers sometimes. MCH has a move that can crit for like 9k during a 3s stun... Yes, as he said, people can solo great healers.

Back in 2.x, in the fold, you had no time to dps either, as the game mode was basically, "clobber the healer" back then. The only use cases I can see are either duels or front lines.

Duels arent meant to be serious, sure allow cleric stance, but if you allow it healers will be near unbeatable... Who cares though, duels are never balanced in any MMO. You can win now as a healer spinting around with Regen and int accessories, don't really need cleric, but yea duels should be fun, I could go either way here.

Front lines I can see having time to use cleric stance, but that's only because a majority of dps in this game have no idea how to play. If you took the best PvPers and put them on a front lines match, great healers would be having an insane time keeping up with the damaging going out.

You've eaten too many member berries imo

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Yet, healers were rarely killed first. The best strat in 4v4 was to fool a healer about your real target, then kill before any healing/CC could be done, which depended a lot on your comp vs the enemy comp. Only at very low skill levels did everyone rushing healers actually work, because of things like Holy, Fluid Aura, Blizzard 2, etc


Not really. Healers are the most valuable roles on the team. Back in 2.1, you could actually lose to a smart healer if you were alone because of Cleric Stance. This skill floor has been COMPLETELY removed when they disabled Cleric Stance/damage interrupts, and PvP is less interesting because of it. The individual doesn't matter, like timing skills to counter other skills, just group up and press buttons.

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I cant agree more! so much this! In my opinion the dumbest move in pvp they ever made.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Stuff

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First of all, 2.1 was the worst iteration of PvP this game has ever had. You apparently were there, you should know how grossly unbalanced and mechanically broken it was. PvP could only improve from the massive shit show that was 2.1 PvP.

Your stance on PvP seems to be the want to have balance in 1v1 scenarios in a team based PvP game. The PvP in this game is balanced around team efforts, not which job is good at 1v1 duels thus making your train of thought flawed.

At this stage in the game, Cleric stance would find little use in the current meta of PvP being as though healers have very few spells to spare. If it were to be reintroduced into PvP, Assize would have to take a massive hit on that note. Pushback is not broken in the slightest, have you tried this rare technique where some bright players don't hit targets that have Pushback up? If you're so impatient to focus all of your attention on the meat shield, make sure to inform your healer you're about to take unnecessary damage.

Cast can still be interrupted, a certain threshold of damage has to be met to do so though. You have DRG and WAR leveled, you should know that Full thrust, Fell Cleave, empowered Jumps, heavy crits, or just normal burst is enough to interrupt a cast. God forbid healers are able to defend themselves from basic damage in a meta where dps have the power to wombo combo players in less than 2 GCDs.

WAR is not OP, believe it or not, dueling isn't this game's PvP focus. You suggest that they lose the ability to change stances lol??? That's probably the most ludicrous statement you've made and that's competing with your idea that 2.1 was in anyway an okay state for PvP. WAR has already been balanced by the VIT changes and damage bonus lost to tanks in PvP areas. WAR is also one of the easiest jobs to counter be it by CC'ing their berserk or just directly removing it all together. PLD's party defense would also like to say "Hi". You claim that WAR is the strongest job, but presumably have limited info on what other jobs have to offer. (You have DRG leveled, how can you make that allegation?) Have you seen BRD/MCH burst, MNK's powerful frequent burst (barely detectable), and the simple fact that all of the DPS have considerably higher sustainable damage than a WAR. The self healing is only relevant in certain cases where you actually become a target for once. These cases which should only occur when you have multiple stacks of vulnerability or when there are no longer any other non-tanks to engage.

I'm curious though, how much experience do you even have with current PvP to be making such outlandish statements?

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Originally Posted by Nakanishi

First of all, 2.1 was the worst iteration of PvP this game has ever had. You apparently were there, you should know how grossly unbalanced and mechanically broken it was.

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Sounds like an opinion with no actual argument to back it up.

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Originally Posted by Nakanishi

God forbid healers are able to defend themselves from basic damage in a meta where dps have the power to wombo combo players in less than 2 GCDs.

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...They could already do this in 2.1. The Lv 60 skills just make the playing field more interesting, rather than imbalanced.

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Originally Posted by Nakanishi

WAR is not OP, believe it or not, dueling isn't this game's PvP focus. You suggest that they lose the ability to change stances lol???

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I've played WAR in PvP since 2.1 and it's never not been broken, reflect damage CDs, highest potency in the game under Berserk, a fast stun, Holmgang and the best selfhealing in the game. Not an argument.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Healers kept their entire team healed while dealing with chasers, and even killing people through DoTs/CC and a little team help. The system now is dumbed down and boring in comparison.

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The only competitive healer was SCH because you could stack a lot of VIT and have lustrate not be affected by the loss of MND, WHM could pull good results but past all their defensive cooldowns they were dead.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

You must be playing with AWFUL healers if you can kill them 1v1, healers won 1v1s in 2.1, with fully interruptable casting, what they can do now is a joke.

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No, I just know what I'm doing, and many other people do. The only case where a healer can fully focus on trying to keep only themselves alive is in duel, in Feast if their attention is divided between themselves and their teamates (and in the case of some dps, even without that) you can kill experienced healers with a burst, solo. Just work on your stun timing.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

WAR has been decried as OP for years now, starting with MRD, and even after that got nerfed, they're still the single strongest class in PvP. I don't know how you can argue this.

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I'm really not sure a PLD would lose to a WAR. Why would you claim WAR is the strongest job in pvp? Because nothing else other than a tank can kill them? Well that goes for all classes VS tanks. And healers can kill tanks.

My best pvp memories and best FFXIV memories in general come from Seal Rock which was a major pvp success, I know a few people on Exca share that feeling. I don't agree with all the changes they bring to pvp but it certainly hasen't gone downhill.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Sounds like an opinion with no actual argument to back it up.

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So 30/15/7s Sleeps, 20/10/5s Binds, 20/10/5s heavy and 24/12/6s disease (also was a heavy status) being stack-able, 50% healing reduction on storm's eye and disease (stackable) 3/2.5m cd on purify and could only be used on yourself, raise spell on a dps, broken mrd, moral, bunny hoping (avoiding melee attacks), the latency of out of instance areas, etc. were all balanced and completely fluid mechanics? LOL. Definitely opinion bro. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

...They could already do this in 2.1. The Lv 60 skills just make the playing field more interesting, rather than imbalanced.

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There is no point to be had from this statement.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

I've played WAR in PvP since 2.1 and it's never not been broken, reflect damage CDs, highest potency in the game under Berserk, a fast stun, Holmgang and the best selfhealing in the game. Not an argument.

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Do you even bother to read, or are you just too stubborn to realize that your simple-minded ideals are too far strung to make facts make sense? Still going on about reflect damage CDs as if there is some mechanic in the game that forces you to hit a certain target. Get over it already, only ill-minded individuals think reflect cds are broken, especially on a tank. Fell Cleave has 500 potency, and is on the GCD, yet Between the Eyes still hits harder than fell cleave with 450 potency and is damage on oGCD (Something WAR lacks in comparison to other jobs). Fast stun as a benefit, you obviously don't play other jobs, otherwise you'd know a fast stun isn't unique to WAR. I'm not going to go over self-healing with you again and holmgang doesn't somehow break WAR. The reason there isn't an argument is because you don't actually know anything about any other jobs, match outcomes, or team roles to make a valid statement in terms of balance.

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Originally Posted by NoelNoel

WHM could pull good results but past all their defensive cooldowns they were dead.

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What is Holy, Fluid Aura, and Repose.

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Originally Posted by NoelNoel

No, I just know what I'm doing, and many other people do. The only case where a healer can fully focus on trying to keep only themselves alive is in duel

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These two statements contradict each other. Healers could win 1v1s/hold off 1v2s or 1v3s with fully interruptable casting and Cleric Stance, lowering the skill floor into kiting and healing does not better PvP make.

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Originally Posted by NoelNoel

I'm really not sure a PLD would lose to a WAR.
And healers can kill tanks.

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This is mostly due to the uninterruptable casting. Another problem that has been introduced since 2.1 that no one asked for.

Sorry, I'm not going to reply to posts that just prove you didn't read any of my points to begin with anymore, it's really boring and disheartening to see from the OF.

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Originally Posted by Nakanishi

So 30s Sleeps, 20s Binds, 50% healing reduction on storm's eye and disease (stackable), heavy and disease being stack-able, 2m cd on purify and could only be used on yourself, raise spell on a dps, broken mrd, moral, bunny hoping (avoiding melee attacks), the latency of out of instance areas, etc.

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This was all patched in the very same hotfix I mentioned a couple posts before.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Chaining Heavy through Miasma made SCH rough, yes, but was fixed quite early on by disabling the ability of Miasma 2 to cause Heavy.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...ba39b67875a7af
It's like you don't actually know the history of this game, let alone reading the posts of someone that does.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

This was all patched in the very same hotfix I mentioned a couple posts before.


http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...ba39b67875a7af
It's like you don't actually know the history of this game, let alone reading the posts of someone that does.

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I know far too much about the history of the PvP in this game, which is why your post are so cringe worthy. I clearly listed the original state of PvP (2.1) in my first paragraph, you know the only one you bothered to skim over. The hotfix/patch you link still did not rectify even half of the things on my list, and that's not even the entire list. Everything after 2.1 has to be terrible in order for your topic to hold any weight.

"PvP has gone majorly downhill since 2.1"

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Originally Posted by Nakanishi

I know far too much about the history of the PvP in this game

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Yet here you are, arguing basic semantics and unable to address any of my points aside from "this thing was broken for a short period of time so the entire mode is garbage" whining.

If anything, this is an interesting look at the caliber of the modern PvP playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Yet here you are, arguing basic semantics and unable to address any of my points aside from "this thing was broken for a short period of time so the entire mode is garbage" whining.

If anything, this is an interesting look at the caliber of the modern PvP playerbase.

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I think you're just delusional at this point. No matter how many points I make to your open discussion, you're too prideful to accept that you are wrong. just stop already, it's getting a bit too sad.

I like the complaining about how casting is harder to interrupt. I did really love how a warrior could just spam tomahawks to interrupt me.

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Originally Posted by Sweetgrass

Also, WARs are still stupid broken in PvP, as they have been forever.

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True but they were even worse before STR/VIT adjustments(instant battle high with double decimate if there was 4 opponents), what comes to PB yeah its pretty damn strong but you should kite said tank untill it wears off. PB is my favorite skill in the game as it allows some fun mindgames, nothing is more fun than seeing your oppenet fly to the death due KB counter but if they need to nerf it then just lower the counter potency.

Well friend. SE balanced theyr PvP stuff mostly based on what happens on japanese PvP and as many people told me it seems to be completely different from our pvp. Battle highs barely seem to exist and if they exist they get focused like crazy. People in Japan seem to play in a whole different style so the changes seem only to make no sense for us.^^

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I personally consider the existence of dedicated healers (or more broadly, trinity design) among the biggest issues of PvP in this game, but not one that can realistically be rectified, so it's a moot point talking about it. It's not gonna change and consequently, people who don't like it (like me) are better off getting their PvP fix elsewhere.

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Agreed, and I do. Guild Wars 2 and Star Wars has far better pvp than FFXIV. They would be better off creating pvp and pve only skill lists. That way they could balance abilities for the content instead of trying to just make it all work together.

WAR was so broken in 2.1 you literally had to remove your job stone to be viable.