Question about Astrologian and buffing in 8-man raid.

Is it better to AOE balance/arrow and buff the whole group, or is it better to use enhanced balance/arrow on the top DD in the group?

Honestly in 8 man trials AOE the balance and arrows cards since there's 8 people and that buff can make a huge difference

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Originally Posted by Powe

Honestly in 8 man trials AOE the balance and arrows cards since there's 8 people and that buff can make a huge difference

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But the buff weakens to 10% for a balance AOE, but the enhanced version increases the cards by 150% potency. Isn't that more effective on someone that knows what their doing?

I still say AoE balance/arrow than enhanced. I only use enhance arrow "sometimes" to BLM or myself, or enhanced spear to myself for MP refresh and celestial oppression. I never use enhanced balance.

If you're getting bad luck with card draws and just can't get that spire/ewer, it's a greater dps loss to just hold onto that Balance/Arrow instead of using it. Personally, I wouldn't say to hold it for more than 2 draws tops, or that's potential dps you're just missing out on.

Incidentally, did they do something to the RNG? Last three days all I've Drawn are Balances and Arrows, and the rare Spear, literally nothing else. What gives?

Except in very exceptional cases, you'll want to give it to the whole group. Consider the following distribution, top-DPS of 2000, 2 DPS at 1000, 1 DPS at 800, 2 tanks at 700, 1 healer at 300.
Imgur hates me so you just get numbers.
Even for this lopsided distribution, the total dps is 6500, 10% would then be 650, but adding 30% to the top dps would only be 600. And that gap only widens as you have a more even dps distribution.

AOE Balance, extend it and then both healers help with DPSing :)

You probably should, but any good AST knows not to only focus on aoe cards only, as RNG will take over and you can never get the cards you need. not all situations would call for aoe cards either, like mechanics that will cause dps to not be able to stay on bosses for extended periods of time, or healing becoming to much for you to benefit from it, you choose based on situations.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Incidentally, did they do something to the RNG? Last three days all I've Drawn are Balances and Arrows, and the rare Spear, literally nothing else. What gives?

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No, they didn't as far i know the only change they did was so you don't shuffle the same card. but the RNG is still the same, as i'll get nothing but ewer and spire cards for 5 minutes straight. it's just RNG letting you know it still rules you.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

But the buff weakens to 10% for a balance AOE, but the enhanced version increases the cards by 150% potency. Isn't that more effective on someone that knows what their doing?

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Yes, but only if they're the only person that knows what they're doing. Though of course that happens in df.

the correct use of cards is to give enhanced balance to the cutest member of your team
nothing else

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

the correct use of cards is to give enhanced balance to the cutest member of your team
nothing else

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Exactly this. See that Lalafell? Don't give it to that, give it to the cute Femroe instead

The top DPS needs to be awfully far ahead of the pack for it to be worthwhile to extend just them rather than give the whole group.

Let's assume that all the DPS are equal. Assign them an arbitrary potency value of 100, over one minute of time. In a full party, then, after a minute you have a total of 400 potency.

Now, let's give one DPS an Extended Balance. Now, one DPS is doing 120 potency over that minute instead of 100, for a total of 420 potency.

Now, let's give all the DPS Expanded Balance. Now, each DPS is doing 55 potency for half that time, and 50 the rest. Again, that amounts to 420 potency, so it might seem like there's no difference - but don't forget the healers and tanks also benefit. It's not a whole lot more damage, but it's still more damage.

It should go without saying that Enhanced Balance is a waste. One DPS does 65 potency for half a minute, leading to a total of 415 potency over the full minute.

So, for it to be worthwhile to Extend one DPS instead of Expanding the whole party, that one DPS has to be doing enough extra damage over the other DPS to make up for the bonus to both tanks and both healers.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

But the buff weakens to 10% for a balance AOE, but the enhanced version increases the cards by 150% potency. Isn't that more effective on someone that knows what their doing?

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It doesn't enhance it by, it enhances it TO 150%, so a 50% boost. That means that it would be 30% more damage, not 50%.

Spreading cuts it down to 10% each, but consider that you hit 4 dps (40%) and tanks who are still dpsing (60%) and if healers get involved (potential 70-80%)

As we can see, even IF it boosted it by 150%, it can still do more spread.

I always spread in 8 mans unless rng doesn't let me

After running A12N with my Ast trying to shoot for AoE buffs instead of enhanced buff. I have to say I think it made a difference. For some reason I just always hated spreading buffs ever since I bought my Ast to a 24-man run after that I just always bought my Sch/Whm to them instead, and just saved my Ast for 4 man runs. Anyway thanks for the advice everyone.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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Enhanced is not a waste, it's actually better than extended in many, if not most, cases.

Your math if off by assuming the DPS a Damage Dealer does is constant throughout the entire buff duration.
During pulls for example, if you dont have an AoE balance, 30 secs of 30% additional damage (which is enough to cover all DPS openers) is already more DPS than those extra 30 secs of +20% damage after all openers have already been done, buffs fallen off and oGCDs on CD.

Not to mention you always wanna use Time Dilatation and Celestial Opposition on those enhanced cards for 25 secs of extra goodness, which is by FAR more efficient to use on enhanced cards than extended ones.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Enhanced is not a waste, it's actually better than extended in many, if not most, cases.

Your math if off by assuming the DPS a Damage Dealer does is constant throughout the entire buff duration.
During pulls for example, if you dont have an AoE balance, 30 secs of 30% additional damage (which is enough to cover all DPS openers) is already more DPS than those extra 30 secs of +20% damage after all openers have already been done, buffs fallen off and oGCDs on CD.

Not to mention you always wanna use Time Dilatation and Celestial Opposition on those enhanced cards for 25 secs of extra goodness, which is by FAR more efficient to use on enhanced cards than extended ones.

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While I agree that the opener is the best place to do Enhanced if you're going to do Enhanced at all, don't lose sight of the fact that ALL FOUR DPS (not to mention tanks and healers, who do have their own openers if not quite as potent as a DPS's) are doing their openers at that point. I think that Expanded still wins out, there, enhancing all those openers by a little bit rather than one by a lot. Unless, again, that one is WAY ahead of the rest.

But even if we allow for that case, I'd hardly consider that to be most cases, or even common.

You could just AOE Balance the raid, then use Time Dilation on the top DPS afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

the correct use of cards is to give enhanced balance to the cutest member of your team
nothing else

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Or Arrows to the DRG who pissed you off.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

While I agree that the opener is the best place to do Enhanced if you're going to do Enhanced at all, don't lose sight of the fact that ALL FOUR DPS (not to mention tanks and healers, who do have their own openers if not quite as potent as a DPS's) are doing their openers at that point. I think that Expanded still wins out, there, enhancing all those openers by a little bit rather than one by a lot. Unless, again, that one is WAY ahead of the rest.

But even if we allow for that case, I'd hardly consider that to be most cases, or even common.

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Yep I agree, that's why I said "when you don't have AoE balance".
Thus I was merely comparing the other two inferior options.

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Originally Posted by lyndwyrm

Except in very exceptional cases, you'll want to give it to the whole group. Consider the following distribution, top-DPS of 2000, 2 DPS at 1000, 1 DPS at 800, 2 tanks at 700, 1 healer at 300.
Imgur hates me so you just get numbers.
Even for this lopsided distribution, the total dps is 6500, 10% would then be 650, but adding 30% to the top dps would only be 600. And that gap only widens as you have a more even dps distribution.

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You seemed to ignore the fact that cards buff do not last the whole duty duration. So no, an AoE Balance wouldn't suddenly buff the party damage by 10%. Your example is really flawed.

I hate to break it. I dislike some ast that keeps drawing cards to get the balance. Like they r wasting their cards.
Drawing 3-6 turns trying to get a balance cuse its the new thing to do and only "good card" they think it is annoys me and tell them that theyr a bad ast. :) thats my opinion.

Back to OP.
Depends. Somtetimes i use enchanced on a guy that does the most dps. Or enchanced + bole on a tank or those whi got brink of death + time.
Also its random so it might be aoe balance/arrow/spear to all:) and keep my ewer for myself or to brd

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

I hate to break it. I dislike some ast that keeps drawing cards to get the balance. Like they r wasting their cards.
Drawing 3-6 turns trying to get a balance cuse its the new thing to do and only "good card" they think it is annoys me and tell them that theyr a bad ast. :) thats my opinion

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as a somewhat AST main, i also dislike it, People do not seem to realize how much you are not helping by wasting 10 minutes just to get 1 card. it's silly and pointless. it got to the point that i find a use for all cards if i am backed into a corner, even spear, throw that on your self or a brd/mch, they do help. even spire, as for some reason warriors eat up tp like a fat dude at a buffet. and on long fights it even helps them. but i would suggest you give a nice little slap to any AST you see only going for one card.

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

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So would you say Spire would also be helpful for PLD? Especially since they don't have any TP regeneration moves (whereas WAR can swap to Deliverance, pop an Equilibrium, and swap back to Defiance once the cooldown finishes if they're MTing). And DRK as well? I will say that I am an atrocious Astrologian. Though I'd be intrigued to learn more. So far through the game experience and tips given in game, I've learned that a Spear can be very helpful for BRD/MCH as you mention, and I use Ewers on healers if their cooldowns are down and they need a mana boost. I know Arrow on a NIN directly is a no-no, but elsewhere is good. Anything else I should know about AST?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

So would you say Spire would also be helpful for PLD?

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Sometimes, they don't eat as much TP as a war, but with long drawn out fights, it can be. i watch tp bars constantly and rarely do i see PLD with tp issues, i usually stick them with bole or in rare cases spear if i know they are about to use a lot of CDs, and i have stuck with one. Situational, etc.

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Especially since they don't have any TP regeneration moves (whereas WAR can swap to Deliverance, pop an Equilibrium, and swap back to Defiance once the cooldown finishes if they're MTing). And DRK as well?

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The problem is, these are skills good wars and drks have, but you can't always hope to find, unless you're in a static with them. i go by random people i will meet up with. Have to think of the majority. as an AST i personally think you should just watch your teammates and see how they play if you're going to stick with them for a while, to get a good idea of who gets what.

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I will say that I am an atrocious Astrologian. Though I'd be intrigued to learn more. So far through the game experience and tips given in game, I've learned that a Spear can be very helpful for BRD/MCH as you mention,

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Bard and MCH entire arsenal relies on their cool downs, they depend on many CDs to do damage, so spear does help them more then anyone else. i will use it on my self if i am about to use aether or CO, as it cuts them down drastically, especially enhanced, again, situational card. but i woudl prioritize them if you simply have no other choice, like only getting spear and nothing else, Brd/MCH will of course still benefit better from balance and arrow (but blms love arrow the most, just so you know)

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and I use Ewers on healers if their cooldowns are down and they need a mana boost.

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The problem with ewer and spire in fact as that they NEED to be boosted to make a big difference, enchanced or extended, using them alone is imo, a waste cause they don't last long enough, the best time to use it is during a WHMs Shroud or your aether, they work well together.

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I know Arrow on a NIN directly is a no-no, but elsewhere is good. Anything else I should know about AST?

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yea, i had a few complaints from nins back when i started AST, they don't like it, for some reason, so i usually only give them balance, and very rare cases, even spear.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Is it better to AOE balance/arrow and buff the whole group, or is it better to use enhanced balance/arrow on the top DD in the group?

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I did some math for this back in I think 3.2. Assuming you have 1 DPS well ahead of the group that you want to buff (not double, but say ~20% better or so IIRC), there is not a huge difference between extending for that player, enhancing for that player or expanding.

That said, tests showed expanding to be the most impactful by a small margin in 8 man parties.

Possible issues with this was it assumed constant DPS throughout the fight, and did not take into account high burst openers etc. I cannot imagine it would make a huge difference, unless one party member has a specifically strong opener and everyone elses is quite weak.


I want to add that the math may have changed with changes to various classes (specifically to cards) over the past couple of patches.

I also want to add, that as a Summoner, I love Ewers \o/ :) My AST in my party now throws me all the ewers she gets, and I can basically non stop Ruin III.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

I hate to break it. I dislike some ast that keeps drawing cards to get the balance. Like they r wasting their cards.

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Nothing wrong with that option though (same for those wanting to be more "frugal"). Balance of all cards certainly didn't need a buff, but the 3.4 changes to AST means it makes more logical and mathematical sense for players to build their Card optimisation around Balance, using the others as entirely situational (Ewer/Spire) or consolation (Arrow) prizes. Balance (and to a lesser extent, Arrow) are the only cards that, as long as the target is available to hit, is always useful no matter when it's drawn. Bole meanwhile means more windows for Cleric, and Spear is still useless.

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even spire, as for some reason warriors eat up tp like a fat dude at a buffet. and on long fights it even helps them.

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The only way WAR runs into TP issues is by overuse of Overpower. It's PLDs that end up hurting for TP over long fights.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

and Spear is still useless.

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as a bard, reading this caused me actual, physical pain. you may have outright killed any mch reading it, too

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

as a bard, reading this caused me actual, physical pain. you may have outright killed any mch reading it, too

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How do you think i feel.... but you responded to it. AST is hard, bro.