Primals, Eikons and something I still don't understand

What HW made clear is that the shape and form of a primal (and Eikon) actually depends on it's followers who summoned it. it's how they imagine their god. even koji once said that if we would encounter bismarck somewhere else he might look different cause they way ppl look at it. that basically leaves open the possibility that we gonna "re-fight" the old primals just with new looks someday.
what we also learned is that as long as you have enough believers (and energy) that almost anything could end up as a primal (go on dalamud fanatics, maybe one day you'll succeed...)

So now the part i don't understand. how is the consciousness of a primal determined? is it some spirit that's brooding all time until it get's summoned into a body? or is it the collective idea of the believers? and in either case how does it contact those before being summoned. we have seen tempered ppl before an actual summon, but who did that to them? some kind of self inflicted hypnosis?

i might have missed the answer to that question down the line somewhere... but if we know it already maybe someone could help out here

It's actually made pretty clear in-universe during 3.0 and 3.4.

A primal is just a physical manifestation of someone, or a group's, fervent belief and desires. Ifrit is as he is because the amalj'aa wanted a leader to help defend their territory and conquer new lands. Ravana is as he is because the Vath wanted a leader to lead them on conquests. Etc etc. There is a basic principle the individual or group wants, which the primal manifests as, which gives the foundation of their personality. The same could be said to be true of their appearance.

It's been said that, after a primal is first summoned, it will continue to exist in the aether due to its worshipers. (This is likely the practical application of tempering - ensuring the primal will always have followers and thus always exist.) Theoretically if all a primal's followers die, and it is forgotten, it will truly die as well. No other way can even theoretically kill a primal for good.

However no primal comes out the way the summoner wants. Bahamut was a twisted mockery of the original, Shiva isn't the real deal but just a manifestation of Ysayle's idea of Shiva, etc. This usually makes them malevolent. Ramuh is the only exception.

Well... Alexander is too, ironic given he was summoned for nefarious purposes in the first place. Or perhaps that's the twist?

As shown in 3.4, the emotions of the summoner or group that summons a primal will also influence a given summoning. It still maintains the core appearance due to that appearance being iconic, but the psyche is different - theoretically you could have a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh, for instance. Theoretically.

hmmm ok, but their conciousness seems to be more than just be based on an idea.

well, though that would mean if the idea dies (no matter how) the primal will be gone as well?!
and it also means that we could have multiple primals around all going by the same name but in the end they would be different cause they are based on different ideas? and even if the good amalj'aa would summon a different kind of ifrit, one that helps them to bring peace and prosperity to their tribe, we, the WoL, would still have to go out and kill it cause it would drain the ether out of the land eventually?
it just strikes me that the beast tribes just want the best for themself and we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

That would mean if the idea dies (no matter how) the primal will be gone as well?! We could have multiple primals around all going by the same name but in the end they would be different cause they are based on different ideas?

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Yes, that would be the case, and there is in fact an example from the game to support the theory.

In the finale of the level 50 summoner quest-line, the antagonist summoned the egi of the elder primal Belias. The egi looked like a bigger, darker version of the Ifrit-egi.

More importantly, Belias appeared to be a fire-based primal, just like Ifrit.

The implications are that Belias could be an older, and now forgotten, version of Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

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Sure, the Circle of Ash could summon a benevolent version of Ifrit if they wanted to, but they don't. They find the reliance on a god sickening and against everything that the Amal'jja stand for. That said, what you're getting at isn't unreasonable. The Kobolds, for instance only summoned Titan because they felt threatened by Limsa Lominsa breaking their treaty. And we did have to venture into the Navel and kill Titan, because as you said, he was draining the aether from the land.

Then you also need to remember that Tempering is not always a conscious act by the Primal. Ramuh mentions that the Touched were tempered by simply being around Ramuh. So far, Ramuh and Shiva (post ARR) are the only primals that have not been openly hostile to us, so take that as you will.

As I understand it, you need a soul for the foundation, belief for the blueprints, aether for the construction and yet more aether (or prayer, primals seem to use aether whenever possible though) for sustenance.

If I remember right, souls can't be destroyed.
So Ifrit gets killed, his soul returns to the lifestream, his thralls pray until all the fragments are drawn back together, they gather some crystals, do the summoning ritual and he's back.

One thing that I'm not sure has ever been firmly established, is whether Primals have any continuity of memory between summonings, or whether their knowledge and memories, like their bodies, are formed entirely by the beliefs of their summoners? For example, if you told Ramuh a story out of earshot of any of his Sylph followers, then killed him, the next time he was summoned, would he remember the story? Or even remember you telling it? Is there some core part of the primal that remains in existence in the Aether, or is the entire being snuffed out each time it's killed, and given a whole new set of memories every time it is summoned? If there is continuity of memory, does a primal still remember things from their first summoning, however many thousands of years ago?

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

it just strikes me that the beast tribes just want the best for themself and we are more or less the bad guys by killing them instead of helping them to achieve their goals in a different way...

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This is exactly the case, and pretty much blatantly spelled out in the conflict between the Kobolds and Limsa Lominsa. The Kobolds and Limsa have a treaty. LIMSA (not the Kobolds!) is regularly breaking that treaty, and encroaching on Kobold territory. The Kobolds are blatantly justified in expressing their ire with this - but due to the inherent dangers involved, we simply can't stand by and allow Titan to run around, sucking up all the Aether.

So, why don't we direct our energies toward smoothing things over between the Kobolds and Limsa? Simply put, it's not our job, and it's not our forte. We're not politicians or diplomats by training, and we can't afford to remain tied to La Noscia when there are primals springing up all over Eorzea. This is a job for the Lominsan leaders to deal with - and Merlwyb is doing her best, really. The people she's in charge of, though, are literally a bunch of pirates and hooligans, used to doing whatever they please, whenever they please. Keeping a tight rein on them is hard work, even for someone as badass as Merlwyb. They're working toward a solution, and optimistically may someday find a lasting peace with the Kobolds. Likely not within the scope of this game, however, as we still need an excuse to be able to kill Kobolds whenever it's convenient to. XD

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Originally Posted by Cilia

As shown in 3.4, the emotions of the summoner or group that summons a primal will also influence a given summoning. It still maintains the core appearance due to that appearance being iconic, but the psyche is different - theoretically you could have a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh, for instance. Theoretically.

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It is worth noting that a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh would still drain the land of aether if allowed to persist, so the Scions would still consider it to be their duty to defeat and disperse him.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

It is worth noting that a genuinely kind and benevolent Ramuh would still drain the land of aether if allowed to persist, so the Scions would still consider it to be their duty to defeat and disperse him.

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That's true, and is something that Ramuh himself is aware of.

It's also covered by Alexander who, using his powers of time manipulation, engineered his own defeat because of that problem in spite of his desire being to make the world a truly better place. He could have stopped the Calamity but chooses not to because of the problems with aether drain.

My point was that the Primal's mind has some baseline, but the wishes of the summoner(s) do influence a given incarnation's personality. Ramuh is a harsh judge, but if enough sylphs truly wanted "the wise man of the wood" there's no reason to believe they couldn't summon something like that. The problem is most primals are summoned as a desperate self-defense measure, and as such they are always violent towards us.

We don't know what makes an Eikon different from a Primal just yet. It's confirmed that each Eikon is stored in a proto-Dalamud like structure for the purpose of harnessing their powers, at least.

It seem like primal Bahamut was as strong, if not stronger than each Eikon, so raw power might not be that distinction.

Since each Triad's name is based of off religion's creation mythology in real life then maybe that could provide a clue?

Excluding the real life reference to their names so far we know that Sephirot was the 1st Sacred Tree and he claims to be the "incarnation of life itself." Sophia is obsessed with balance.

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Originally Posted by myahele

It's confirmed that each Eikon is stored in a proto-Dalamud like structure for the purpose of harnessing their powers, at least.

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The Triad, yes, but we have no idea when Odin was summoned. He might have had jack squat to do with the Allagans.

Wth regards to Odin: Sephirot's and Sophia's thralls needed to be killed like any Primal thralls. Presumably, without the thralls, once defeated, the Fiend and Goddess were gone for good. Odin seems capable of existing without any active worshippers besides the thrall on Sleipnir's back, and without any more belief than a vague rumor of a demonic horseman in the Shroud. Even when Odin is defeated and the thrall is killed...how does Odin survive until the opportunity to claim a new thrall presents itself? Does it have to do with the true form of Odin, the Zantetsuken blade, being an actual physical object? How does only one person's forced worship give Odin the immense power he has?

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Originally Posted by RahfaelFavinco

Wth regards to Odin: Sephirot's and Sophia's thralls needed to be killed like any Primal thralls. Presumably, without the thralls, once defeated, the Fiend and Goddess were gone for good. Odin seems capable of existing without any active worshippers besides the thrall on Sleipnir's back, and without any more belief than a vague rumor of a demonic horseman in the Shroud. Even when Odin is defeated and the thrall is killed...how does Odin survive until the opportunity to claim a new thrall presents itself? Does it have to do with the true form of Odin, the Zantetsuken blade, being an actual physical object? How does only one person's forced worship give Odin the immense power he has?

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I don't think Primals need prayer to stick around after manifesting. It seems to keep them from dissipating if no aether is around, for example with Bahamut and his thousands of sleeping dragons trapped in Dalamud, but so long as there is aether in the surrounding land to drain I think they're pretty much self sustaining after the summoning.

Edit: Bahamuts probably not the best example. He was trapped in a giant space solar panel for the Allagans, probably plenty of aether or equivalent power source available in that. Still, the Warring Triad trapped way up in the sky don't seem to have much in the way of external aether sources. They might make a better example? Not overly familiar with them tbh.

Anyway, my point is, Odin doesn't need thralls to keep him around and I don't think this is unique to him. I think either aether or prayer can keep a primal going, but draining aether for them is like breathing for us, you can't really not do it.

Being an Eikon, the Zantetsuken is probably absorbing aether while waiting for someone to pick it up, which probably doesn't take too long. Afterall, people are targeting the host while doing nothing to the sword itself.

It only takes one thrall to bring forth a primal, once that primal exists they can then absorb the land's aether to further grow stronger. Pure speculation, but when it comes to swords that possess people, there's usually that One warrior whom that sword deems worthy/strong enough to wield it to the point where s/he isn't possess. I believe that the real Odin was that person and Zantetsuken is merely recreating him from those who pick it up becuase the new hosts don't compare to Odin.

Trying not to spoil too much, there is a primal who's goal is to make things better, and realizes its own existence goes against this. (showing primals ideals are still slightly based on their original followers)

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Originally Posted by myahele

Being an Eikon, the Zantetsuken is probably absorbing aether while waiting for someone to pick it up, which probably doesn't take too long. Afterall, people are targeting the host while doing nothing to the sword itself.

It only takes one thrall to bring forth a primal, once that primal exists they can then absorb the land's aether to further grow stronger. Pure speculation, but when it comes to swords that possess people, there's usually that One warrior whom that sword deems worthy/strong enough to wield it to the point where s/he isn't possess. I believe that the real Odin was that person and Zantetsuken is merely recreating him from those who pick it up becuase the new hosts don't compare to Odin.

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The sword is a more advanced form of the Anima Weapons we use now. (most magic is just a hair width away from becoming a primal, so that thin line needs to be watched carefully so we don't make more primals)
(Example: we use Aether to make a physical form from it, and make a blizzard spell. In this case, we go a bit further to make the physical form (crystalized aether) but need to make the consciousness, and then intelligence, in order for it to become a primal. The difference between a golem and a primal stems from the constant prayer given to a primal, that in turn needs constant aether to fullfill the constant prayers of its followers, where a golem is content with the aether it was given. And you need multiple worshipers, except in rare cases, to give it more 'life like' consciousness/intelligence than a golem. Though idk why.)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't think Primals need prayer to stick around after manifesting. It seems to keep them from dissipating if no aether is around, for example with Bahamut and his thousands of sleeping dragons trapped in Dalamud, but so long as there is aether in the surrounding land to drain I think they're pretty much self sustaining after the summoning.

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The same cutscene says the sleeping dragons are praying to him/calling out for him in their sleep, which was an explanation as to "who is praying to bahamut?"

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The same cutscene says the sleeping dragons are praying to him/calling out for him in their sleep, which was an explanation as to "who is praying to bahamut?"

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I edited my post to hopefully make what I was trying to say a little clearer :).

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Originally Posted by RahfaelFavinco

The Triad, yes, but we have no idea when Odin was summoned. He might have had jack squat to do with the Allagans.

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The SMN relic quest mentions an Allagan Summoner who had Green Eyes and sacrificed herself in the fight against Odin so that her allies might defeat the Elder Primal.

If I recall correctly, Odin was fist brought into being yes, during a war with the Allagans. A rebel took up Zantetsuken to fight them, believing he could control it rather than the other way around, but ultimately succumbed to its influence and became Odin.

I can't recall who defeated him... though I believe it would have to be Urth or Wiyu. Probably Urth. I think.