[3.4 SPOILERS] Doomed unless Neutral?

SPOILER DISCUSSION! Beyond this line is the SPOILERS. YOU ARE WARNED!!


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So now we know the truth...

If Hydaelyn wins

She destroys all life in the world and fill it with Light.

If Zodiark wins

He destroys all life in the world and fill it with Darknesss

Neutral Ending for the win I guess or we end up F*** the world by continuing to help Hydaelyn.

Given some of the explanation from the story

Hydaelyn nor the Ascians want Voids of Darkness OR Light. Elidibus atleast doesn't want it because Zodiark apparently doesn't want it as such, though it still seems malicious anyways. If anything depending on how the whole thing with Hydaelyn and Zodiark went down (because we almost certainly have a lot more to learn about that conflict), Hydaelyn might even be okay with Zodiark not being sealed since that would probably help keep the new balance...though of course he might just try to take all the shards/realities into himself instead so who knows. Regardless Hydaelyn still seems to be in favor of life.

It does, though, give some justification for being a Dark Knight.

I must point out...

that it is unlikely to be permanent, lest a certain ghostly quintet's efforts would had been for naught. And that Minfillia offered to help stop the whole "cloud of light" screnario.

Still an interesting question, and one I'm certain Elidibus wants us asking with all of his talk of equilibrium

It sure is Shin Megami Tensei in here.

I now wonder if the Thirteenth is the "void" where Diabolos and co. are from.

The revelation of the Warrior of Darkness really puts the phrase "First World Problems" in a new perspective. :D
I think big Z doesn't want a void of either element because he wants to rejoin the fragments with the source and return everything to their original state. And you can't really join voids together.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

It sure is Shin Megami Tensei in here.

I now wonder if the Thirteenth is the "void" where Diabolos and co. are from.

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It's straight up said that it is.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

The revelation of the Warrior of Darkness really puts the phrase "First World Problems" in a new perspective. :D

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Oh God. Bad pun is bad... XD

I don't think its as clear cut as that. Hydealyn seems to be ok with Balance.

What she has told us is that she drove out Zodiark and thus created the 14 worlds (1 source and 13 shards) when Zodiark attempted to seize dominance. She also seems very aware that without balance mortals are doomed and she genuinely seems to care for the the mortals that dwell upon the worlds.

Regardless though It looks like this won't have such a simple solution as just beating someone up.

There is also the fact she's been so weak she hasn't been able to cause any tangible influence in the worlds, at least since saving Krile.

The WoD giving up their crystals gave her the power to free Minfillia up to exist separately, who will now take back the tsunamis of light back into herself, with Mini being a middle-man.

Hydalean and Zodiark don't seem to be the actual sources of Light and Darkness (since otherwise Hydalean wouldn't have needed help to stop the Flood of Light). It seems more likely that it's the other way around, Hydalean COMES from or is empowered by the Light and Zodiark is the same for Darkness.

I don't think light & dark equal good & bad. The light and the dark are neutral.

The WoD overused light as a tool, I definitely didn't get the impression that it was their good intentions that were to blame for the problems on their world.

I wonder what will the Scions and WoL do now with this knowledge? Will they allow "darkness" to win every once in a while, now? Because the base case scenario of killing Asciens, Primals and dismantling corrupt government will lead to yet another Flood of Light world.

Anyways, I think this type of scenario is what Hydaelyn have always wanted. Prior to her going silent, Hydaelyn has effectively primed WoL and WoL to "banish the darkness" and by the end of 2.0 she even says to "spread our light to all creation" So even without Her guidance, both WoLs will what they've been told to do unless another party tells them The Truth.

That said, I think she did what she did to placate both sets of WoL, since she really can't risk not having any warriors to defend/ do her bidding; especially one's that are so successful as the 1st and Source WoLs

The problem is that right now the Ascians have the winning hand. We are Hydaelyn's trump card and last hope so its not like we are in danger to create too much Light right now. She was only able to help after we gave up a crystal of Light so its not like we need to hold back (at least not right now). I think the WoD just warned us what might happen if we turn the tide too much but the question that remains is, how exactly are we going to get balance?

We cant just lay down once in a while and let the Ascians do their thing. First, we dont even have a balance right now, so not stopping them would tip the side even more to darkness. Can we also just stand back and watch people die? And lets not forget that the Ascians try to summon primals again and again thus weakening her further and creating more imbalance. So in a way we have to win right now to get even. And every big catastrophe, which is what the Ascians wants (the white one does not truly stop them) will destroy another world, which will kill millions of people. Maybe if we say that dieing is still better than turning into the void but it would still leave quite the bitter taste if this is how the story will go..How do we even know if we have balance or not?

And somehow sending Minfilia there to stop the Light from spreading might save the WoD's world from its fate, so do we even need Zodiark to have balance? Wouldnt it be possible to just power up Hydaelyn again and she will be the one that will create balance? I mean she does not want her children to die and she is able to take back the Light. Maybe that too easy or even impossible but the new patch at least make it sound like she was able to save the world on her own and did not need Darkness to stop the Light. Or maybe at the end we own crystals of Light and Darkness and we will use them to create a lasting balance without any Ascians being alive to destroy it and with Zodiark still being banished.

I think this will be the dilemma going forward for the Scions and the WoL. However I think that is Hydaelyn's intent. She has, since the start, pushed us to learn the truth of the world for ourselves. I think she realises she herself cant achieve a balance and so has sought to create a way in which mortals can find a way. Regardless, I think in the end the Ascians and Zodiark are going to be a roadblock. One way or another, the conflict between Hydaelyn and Zodiark seems to be one that isn't resolvable through negotiation which means finding another way.

That seems to be the WoL's way and the one that most appeals to me. Given a choice between two bad fates the WoL decides to find, and if necessary, make a third.

I supposed that depends on if Hydaelyn and Zodiark are so tied to the concept of Light and Dark that the termination of one would also be the termination of the respective element.

Think about how gods usually work in more polytheistic religions, instead of one almighty god that is responsible for all creation, we have a set of gods that are claimed to be tied to one concept. With that said, the key word is "claimed". The Primals themselves represent several concepts but their status of glorified tuplas means that their concept's existence is independent of their's (for example, no matter how many times one may slay Ifrit, Fire would still exist). We still don't know exactly what Hydealyn and Zodiark are, but they seemed to be painted as closer to actual gods than the Primals.

A alternate theory being that as Hydaelin is the planet, Zodiark's references in certain poems and exposition would make him...Menphina, the Moon. In this case if we are to assume that A), both star and moon are tied to the life of their respective entity and B), Moons work the same or similar to how they work in Real Life (which Dalamud's fall and its effect might be evidence for), then we can expect apocalyptic disasters (Especially tidal changes) if Zodiark dies and takes Menphina with him

This is how ffxi ended as well. There was no counterbalance to Altana (the Hydalean of ffxi) because Promathia (the zodiark equivalent) was killed/chained, so the Cloud of Darkness came to balance it or something to prevent a flood of light or something

I have nothing against taking some inspiration from the stories of other games, but I really hope that if FFXI really ended that way (never played it) that they will choose another way or this would end up telling the story twice just with other names.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I have nothing against taking some inspiration from the stories of other games, but I really hope that if FFXI really ended that way (never played it) that they will choose another way or this would end up telling the story twice just with other names.

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In FFXI the revelation of the imbalance didn't come about until long after the darkness (Promathia) had been defeated. Here in FFXIV we've been given that revelation well in advance of any sort of victory for the Light so I'm hoping there will be some major differences in how the stories play out now. The only satisfying ending based on what we know at present would, in my opinion, be for Hydaelyn and Zodiark to be restored to their original form somehow and thus end the polarity entirely.

Balance between light/dark is based on the Taoist philosophy of Yin and Yang.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The only satisfying ending based on what we know at present would, in my opinion, be for Hydaelyn and Zodiark to be restored to their original form somehow and thus end the polarity entirely.

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Well if this still allows us humans to exists than yes this would probably be a nice outcome. :) I am just happy if its not a uhm copy paste or if Hydaelyn ends up as the bad one because I like her and would find it sad if she turns out to be bad.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

In FFXI the revelation of the imbalance didn't come about until long after the darkness (Promathia) had been defeated. Here in FFXIV we've been given that revelation well in advance of any sort of victory for the Light so I'm hoping there will be some major differences in how the stories play out now. The only satisfying ending based on what we know at present would, in my opinion, be for Hydaelyn and Zodiark to be restored to their original form somehow and thus end the polarity entirely.

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It's been a while but I'm pretty sure that's not exactly how it goes down. Promathia is defeated at the end of the CoP storyline, but he is not destroyed, if anything it's more that there's the revelation that his essence is in every living creature and is kinda vital to how we are. In fact, Altana chaining him up was because he sought to destroy himself and she couldn't bear to let that happen, so she shattered the world so that he would remain alive in some way.

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Originally Posted by Shadotterdan

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure that's not exactly how it goes down. Promathia is defeated at the end of the CoP storyline, but he is not destroyed, if anything it's more that there's the revelation that his essence is in every living creature and is kinda vital to how we are. In fact, Altana chaining him up was because he sought to destroy himself and she couldn't bear to let that happen, so she shattered the world so that he would remain alive in some way.

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I think most of what people are referring to happened in Rhapsodies of Vana'diel and not the Chains of Promathia storyline.

Ah, didn't finish Rhapsodies yet

I found this reading the little boy's journal in regards to Sophia.

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Originally Posted by The Warring Triad Journal

The Goddess has fallen, and only one pillar of the Warring Triad remains. According to the records we discovered upon Sophia's destruction, the eikon had once schemed to bring the Allagan Empire to ruin from within. The histories also spoke of her followers, and how they perceived the ever-expanding imperials as anathema to the world's balance. Equilibrium is Sophia's domain. Her worshipers saw the righting of the scales as their sacred duty, and thus did they resist the Allagans' invasion with holy fervor. Never mind that the summoning of an eikon did upset their precious balance all the more. The concept of balance is, however, of great interest to my master. A world must have both Light and Darkness, and a sudden surge of either will endanger its very existence. Upon our first meeting, my master spoke thus: I am not the Light's servant, but for the present I must serve. One cannot arbitrate equilibrium if one is not fluid of stance. The tenets of our justice are found not in Light nor Darkness nor the grey shades in between. We but seek to enforce that which prevents the visitation of oblivion. To moderate the endless waves of war such that neither side claims victory...that is our charge.

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The balance plot gets thicker!

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

I found this reading the little boy's journal in regards to Sophia.




The balance plot gets thicker!

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I find it curious that in many respects Elidibus and Urianger are like two sides of the same coin personality-wise. Both are 'fluid in stance' in order to serve the greater good. I wonder if that parallel is deliberate and happens to be leading somewhere...

Both are fluid in stance, but the difference is that Urianger does what he does to promote peace, while the Ascians' goal is to perpetuate war; war brings chaos, and with it a means to tear down the barriers surrounding the Source.

This is what their true goal is. Darkness is nice, but it will not resurrect Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Both are fluid in stance, but the difference is that Urianger does what he does to promote peace, while the Ascians' goal is to perpetuate war; war brings chaos, and with it a means to tear down the barriers surrounding the Source.

This is what their true goal is. Darkness is nice, but it will not resurrect Zodiark.

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Whilst this is true don't forget that Urianger was promoting conflict alongside the Ascians in order to force the WoL and WoDs to confront each other. My point was that, despite having opposing ideologies, both Elidibus and Urianger are willing to use exactly the same means, seemingly in opposition to their allies, for their version of the 'greater good'.

It just seemed to me like the 3.4 MSQ was drawing some very deliberate parallels between the pair. To what end I don't know.