Theory about Sophia in Eorzea

Right so we got some new info on Sophia on the lodestone today. She was worshipped by a multi-racial civilisation of Meracydia and summoned in response to the Allag invasion.

This got me thinking. We know the miqo'te originate from Meracydia, so it's not a stretch to believe they made up a portion of the population of the Goddess civilisation. We also know that the Seekers of the Sun clan worship Azeyma, the sun goddess.

What if... And bear with me on this one.. Azeyma and Sophia are one and the same? In fact, did Sophia influence he moden day Ul'dah?

My theory is that during the Fifth Umbral Era, the miqo'te, specifically who would become the seekers, travelled to Eorza and settled in the area of what we know today as Thanalan. They built temples to their goddess there which were ultimately destroyed in the great flood of the Sixth Umbral era. Mages fleeing the war of the Magi found these ruins and built temples on top of them, eventually becoming the nation of Belah'dia, which I will come to in a moment.

The symbol of Azeyma is an orb with a winged line underneath, representing the sun. What If this is a very simplified symbol of the giant winged head that Sophia floats around on? Or it could reference the orb that she carries in the screenshots.

Sophia summons a set of scales of judgement that we see in the trailer. Where else do we find scales? Right at the beginning of Qarn and before the boss room. It's possible they could have been built by the Belah'dians but as we know Qarn was built on much older ruins, again it's to too much of a stretch. Maybe they found icons of scales in the deeper parts of the ruins and took these to be symbols of Nald'thal.

So these mages, refugees from nations that already worship the Twelve, find ruins dcorated with sun symbols and scales, and assume that these are representative of Azeyma and Nald'thal respectively, and time passes until these symbols become synonymous with these gods.

What do you guys think?

Emmmm....

Did you see the simbols that are in ruins of the catheral on Azys la?

It was a temple made to honor Sephirot, builded by a beast tribe of tree like beings that worshiped him.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Emmmm....

Did you see the simbols that are in ruins of the catheral on Azys la?

It was a temple made to honor Sephirot, builded by a beast tribe of tree like beings that worshiped him.

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Yes, which suggests the symbol of Azeyma is Meracydian in origin (or at least the symbol we have come to know as that of Azeyma) as these are the oldest known ruins with these symbols on them.

My theory is that the Ruins of Qarn, or rather the ruins that Qarn was built on, was originally used by Goddess worshippers who had travelled from Meracydia. I don't know if you were trying to make a point, that was just kind of a statement.

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Originally Posted by Griffey

Yes, which suggests the symbol of Azeyma is Meracydian in origin (or at least the symbol we have come to know as that of Azeyma) as these are the oldest known ruins with these symbols on them.

My theory is that the Ruins of Qarn, or rather the ruins that Qarn was built on, was originally used by Goddess worshippers who had travelled from Meracydia. I don't know if you were trying to make a point, that was just kind of a statement.

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There is an old thread were we had an answer from koji about this.
It was explained the relation between sephirot and its worshipers, and that simbol on the cathedral. It had to do with the sun.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

There is an old thread were we had an answer from koji about this.
It was explained the relation between sephirot and its worshipers, and that simbol on the cathedral. It had to do with the sun.

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Right. And how did that symbol get to Eorzea? Did the tree people bring it and build temples in Thanalan?

I'm thinking that the symbol of the sun and Goddess worship from Meracydia over the centuries became one and the same. Also, the symbol of the scales in Qarn. Whilst Nald'thal is depicted as a man carrying scales, his ancient symbol is the cowrie. So when the founders of Belah'dia found these ruins they assumed that these were built dedicated to the Twelve and not to a Meracydian goddess. Well, that's my theory.

Edit: I had to go and have a look at the stone scales right at the beginning of Qarn to check again. It's called The Warden. the symbol of scales has nothing to do with Azeyma or her legend so why would they be there? Eh, maybe I am putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5, but it's still a strange coincidence...

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Originally Posted by Griffey

Right. And how did that symbol get to Eorzea? Did the tree people bring it and build temples in Thanalan?

I'm thinking that the symbol of the sun and Goddess worship from Meracydia over the centuries became one and the same. Also, the symbol of the scales in Qarn. Whilst Nald'thal is depicted as a man carrying scales, his ancient symbol is the cowrie. So when the founders of Belah'dia found these ruins they assumed that these were built dedicated to the Twelve and not to a Meracydian goddess. Well, that's my theory.

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Well according to what we were told.
The allagans copy/paste the structures of meracydia. When their empire falled some of this structures survived by lack, and their models were used as a reference for the builders of Qarn and later Mhach, and after that Bela'hia.

On case you did not know, at the begining the allagans worshiped the twelve, they found the simbol on meracydia very similar to theirs. That imply a common origin.

We cant be sure if the scale of the goddess is related to the scale we found on Bela'dhia.

The theory I'd come up with wasn't so different, really.

Alas...

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Q:
Why are Meracydian ruins plastered with the mark of Azeyma, the Warden?

A:
So, as is documented in the adventure log entry for the Azys Lla's Cathedral, the structure was an actual place of worship in Meracydia used by the followers of Sephirot, until it was picked up and moved in its entirety by the Allagans so they could study it (in particular, study the ties between faith and primal summoning). So, if it is a Meracydian structure, why does it feature stone carvings almost identical to those found in the Sunken Temple of Qarn (including the repetition of a symbol that has an uncanny resemblance to the sign of Azeyma, the Warden)? We've officially stated before that worship of the Twelve is something found almost solely in Eorzea. Is this proof that Meracydians also worshiped the Twelve? Or perhaps that Azeyma is a transplant from Meracydia? The answer is, in fact, neither. However, there is an interesting connection between ancient Meracydia, the Sunken Temple of Qarn, and ultimately Azeyma.

As can be seen from existing Allagan artifacts (runestones (from 1.0) inscribed with the symbols of the Twelve), Twelve worship existed in the 3rd Astral Era (before eventually losing steam amongst the Allagans as their civilization became increasingly scientifically advanced). When the Allagans first visited Meracydia, they were surprised to find a symbol almost identical to that used for Azeyma, the Warden being prominently featured in various types of architecture. Further research, however, revealed that the Meracydians they encountered did not worship Azeyma, but instead a deity named Sephirot, the Fiend, and that the symbol was being used to mean something similar, but ultimately different.

The original Meracydian tribe which worshipped Sephirot believed him to be a massive tree. As all plants require light to grow and thrive, it was only natural for the tribe to believe that their god also came into his power by bathing in the brilliance of the sun. The tribe recognized the importance of the sun, and thusly adorned their Sephirotic temples with their people's symbol for it. This lead the Allagan scholars to conclude that the Meracydian symbol for the sun, and the Allagan symbol for Azeyma (goddess of the sun) must have both have the same origins, and that somewhere, countless years in the past, that symbol made its way to several different regions across the globe, the evolution of its meaning differing slightly depending on the location.

Now, as for the runic patterns seen in both the Meracydian Cathedral and the Sunken Temple of Qarn, when the Allagans lifted the Cathedral from its home in Meracydia and brought it to Azys Lla, they conducted extensive studies on the building and its architecture--much of that knowledge making its way (in limited form) to the Allagan populace (much like information on, say, the ancient Egyptians is available to anyone in rural Kentucky with a library card or Internet connection). There were even people who took to copying it in newer buildings (much like modern government buildings on Earth might use a decidedly Roman style of architecture). When the Calamity of the 3rd Astral Era hit and ushered in the 4th Umbral Era (a dark age of regression), much of that knowledge was lost, and only fragments lingered--fragments that the few remaining survivors were ill-prepared to fully comprehend. Knowledge of Sephirot? Meracydia? The Cathedral's purpose? All were lost. What people did see was that many of the buildings that were still standing amongst the destruction wrought by the Calamity were covered in these arcane symbols. Many superstitious people took this to mean that they were some kind of wards that protected these structures (not realizing that a lot of buildings with those designs also were destroyed as well). Millennia later, when Belah'dia was founded with the Warden as its matron deity, they naturally incorporated the symbols associated with the deity (symbols taken from much older concepts--symbols tied to what appeared to be the mark of Azeyma) into the architecture of their temples--the Temple of Qarn being one of those. (It also helped that Qarn was built atop the remnants of something much, much older than the Belah'dian civilization)."

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I may be misunderstanding, but doesn't that technically give credence to the idea that Sophia's and Sephirot's symbolism was an influence to Belah'diah?

Thus, also explaining the symbolism appearing all over Ul'dah? (and possibly Sil'dih?)

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I may be misunderstanding, but doesn't that technically give credence to the idea that Sophia's and Sephirot's symbolism was an influence to Belah'diah?

Thus, also explaining the symbolism appearing all over Ul'dah? (and possibly Sil'dih?)

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I agree, Koji's explanation for the proliferation of Azeyma's sun symbol actually fits in perfectly with the OP's theory. The Allagan conquest of Meracydia and then its subsequent downfall essentially assimilated and then scattered Meracydian culture across Eorzea. It's very possible that included more than just the sun symbol, and perhaps elements of the various belief systems themselves.

I have the suspicion, however, that there will be nothing as simple and off-hand as "Sophia and Azeyma are one and the same." I suspect that SE has plans for the Twelve in the future that are much more complicated and involved than just the occasional off-hand, "Oh, yeah - this one Elder Primal was actually one of the Twelve." It would be odd, too, for Sophia to be one of the Twelve, but the other two of the Warring Triad were not.

Not to mention the fact that, in theory, roughly a twelfth of the player population are technically WORSHIPERS of Azeyma, having chosen her as their patron deity. How are those people supposed to feel about the revelation that their deity was actually just another primal - and worse, that they have to fight and kill her?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I have the suspicion, however, that there will be nothing as simple and off-hand as "Sophia and Azeyma are one and the same." I suspect that SE has plans for the Twelve in the future that are much more complicated and involved than just the occasional off-hand, "Oh, yeah - this one Elder Primal was actually one of the Twelve."

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At the very least, that sounded like it was the plan under Team Tanaka.

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Originally Posted by Kenichi Iwao

Each of the twelve is related to an element, and that will most likely come into play. Whether or not you’ll be able to meet these deities is still under wraps (Iwao laughs). <...> there are some SERIOUS revelations about the deities during the game.

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Then again, that's a quote from an age where sorcerers in heavy armor was "We'd love it to be possible, thought it might not necessarily be useful." rather than "Even with glamours, we're going to rigidly control who can wear what." (one of few lingering gripes with the change in direction).

But I'd like to be more thorough that in my last post; while the Miqo'te diffusion bit was off (as we have a good picture of Allag's role in this now), it's definitely possible for Meracydian culture to have become uprooted, conflated, and refashioned from its original form in a way that forgets its own origins when emulated in Eorzea. At this point, I'm nigh certain that what we see after a Calamity is happening in reverse: people discover a depopulated Eorzea anew ... coming from places that were populated by migration out of Eorzea in the first place (our very own "Out of Africa" parallel). The seeds of faith in the Twelve, which were born on Eorzean soil, could have blown far and wide. Some faiths in distant lands grew from those seeds, and produced seeds of their own. What seeds return to us on the winds of time might have evolved, so to speak ... much like how Belah'dia is, but is most definitely not, of Meracydian design.

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Originally Posted by Griffey

Whilst Nald'thal is depicted as a man carrying scales, his ancient symbol is the cowrie.

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Where is Nald'thal depicted as a man with scales? Nald'thal is two people, not one person.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Where is Nald'thal depicted as a man with scales? Nald'thal is two people, not one person.

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Originally Posted by Character Creation (Guardian Deity)

Nald'thal is the single manifestation of the deific twins Nald and Thal. He is most often depicted as a discerning merchant holding a balance. His symbol is the cowry, an ancient shell currency.

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In-game, though, you get the two statues.

I'd like to go back to the "seeds of faith" issue for a second, though. We can go back and forth about how related Sophia and Azeyma (and Azim) might be until the catoblepas come home, but clearly the motifs found in these seeds of faith are flowing down through the ages.

Compare:

Sophia

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs5Jtr8XgAA_YgD.jpg

The Balance

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs5JuR0XEAAPQRS.jpg

The horns alone give me pause, never mind that Azeyma is theoretically based on Egyptian sun goddesses; pretty much anyone related to the Eye of Ra, especially Wadjet, Bast, Shekmet ... even even Maat, Ra's daughter, whom interestingly is associated with order and holds the balance scales. (Hells, even Qarn has a little bit of the Ancient Egypt thing going on.) And Egypt associated divinity and royalty with the winged sun. The big head could be a literal representation of the GODHEAD via the mofits of the sun disc, with the wings coming right out of the face.

Interesting, and of course the Balance is fire-aspected too and associated with Azeyma and Nald'thal.

Could this mean the gods of Meracydia have their origins in astrology? We also have the Bole and Sephirot tree motifs.

I find it interesting how her worshippers simply referred her as "goddess" yet now she's named Sophia. I can't help but wonder if her name was purposefully named "Sophia" by the Allagans in order to differentiate her from Azeyma, whom they once worshipped.

At the very least the belief of the concept of a goddess might have fueled her power. By naming her Sophia, people will at least know its not "their goddess"

And for the reason Anonymoose said, I do think that Sophia is based on the Egyptian goddess Ma'at. The skin color and clothing of both her and her adds look very similar to some ancient egyptian statues, too.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I find it interesting how her worshippers simply referred her as "goddess" yet now she's named Sophia. I can't help but wonder if her name was purposefully named "Sophia" by the Allagans in order to differentiate her from Azeyma, whom they once worshipped.

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There's a good chance this is largely a meta-joke back to the Warring Triad having names at all; in the pre-production phase of FF6, each god did have a name (Sephiroth/Sephirot/"Sefilos", Sophia, and Zurvan) but these weren't actually ever mentioned in the game as published.

It's possible it means something, but it may also just be an in-joke. I'd be wary of reading too much into it.

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Originally Posted by StarDrake

There's a good chance this is largely a meta-joke back to the Warring Triad having names at all; in the pre-production phase of FF6, each god did have a name (Sephiroth/Sephirot/"Sefilos", Sophia, and Zurvan) but these weren't actually ever mentioned in the game as published.

It's possible it means something, but it may also just be an in-joke. I'd be wary of reading too much into it.

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Possibly, but Sephirot is so likely based on Kabbalah's Tree of Life Sephiroth, and his adds and attacks are even named after it's spheres. I'm inclined to believe that SE is deliberately design the Triad based on real life ideals/deities, which may possibly shed some light to the true nature of eikons.