Add difficulty/challenge modes to dungeons

Hello,

I think that everybody should agree that for experienced players dungeons introduced in every patch are non challenging and easy even at release.

I would love to have similiar feature like for example WoW or Diablo has, which can increase DMG output and HP of mobs and bosses by selected difficulty.

+1 difficulty level = +10%dmg/+10%hp of mobs/bosses. You can increase difficulty by how many levels you want (like for example greater rifts in D3 or mythic+ in wow).

As reward it should be probably in game table with players with highest level completed and achievement.

Lets make dungeons which are already implemented in game challenging again by adding completly optional challenge future with adjustable difficulty levels.
Easy to implement with just simply modifiers of already included in game content.

Game is lacking pve challenges. Apart from 6(2 ex primals + 4 savage ) bosses every 6 months. There is no pve challenges in game at all.

Lets add something for players who wants to improve themselfs and like to compare themselfs with others.

Make this happend!

Thank you

Boosting numbers doesn't mean squat if the AI script is the same.

We will need more than bigger numbers to make these dungeons less sleepy. More frequent and varied AoEs + additional tank busters would be a good start.

Agreed bigger number doesn't change a thing
You want difficulty ? Add traps like PotD and it will be a lot more harder
Chnge mechanics nd adds new just like Alex easy mode and savage mode

And if reward only additionnal tome
Nothing more

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Boosting numbers doesn't mean squat if the AI script is the same.

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Actually there is AI, however when SE release dungeons there is so small dmg output that you can complete ignore all the mechanics the fight have, even you can skip lot of them.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

Agreed bigger number doesn't change a thing
You want difficulty ? Add traps like PotD and it will be a lot more harder
Chnge mechanics nd adds new just like Alex easy mode and savage mode

And if reward only additionnal tome
Nothing more

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Realese of Potd proven that traps are jokes and Potd is joke in matter of difficulty.
Also NO to your tomes, i dont need tomes, i need challenge.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

We will need more than bigger numbers to make these dungeons less sleepy. More frequent and varied AoEs + additional tank busters would be a good start.

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That would be awesome as well. But its hard to expect additional stuff from SE.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

Realese of Potd proven that traps are jokes and Potd is joke in matter of difficulty.
Also NO to your tomes, i dont need tomes, i need challenge.

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Trap are joke ? Tell that to the healer
Also do not fall in the same mindset of 90% of the player
PotD seems like an easy content
But everyone forget that it's only 1/4 of the content with the easiest part

I do expect real challenge from 100 to 200

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You need challenge go have a test of savage

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

Trap are joke ? Tell that to the healer
Also do not fall in the same mindset of 90% of the player
PotD seems like an easy content
But everyone forget that it's only 1/4 of the content with the easiest part

I do expect real challenge from 100 to 200

...

You need challenge go have a test of savage

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1. i am the healer, its braindead easy and i dont really have hope for top 100 levels.
2. cleared savage like 3 months ago

Not trying to be rude or anything, just curious is you are aware of:

Minimum Item Level

Settings in duty finder?

It doesnt make it "harder" per say, since a lot of dungeons have been seriously lowered in difficulty such as Pharos Sirius, and Amdapor Keep for examples.

It does however lower your HP, defense, and damage etc. Basically akin to raising the enemies HP or damage output but the opposite, lowering yours.

If you want to have it harder, gather some people and go into savage. That should make it difficult enough.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

If you want to have it harder, gather some people and go into savage. That should make it difficult enough.

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We want harder, but not static shatteringly hard. Please reread if you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Rennies

We want harder, but not static shatteringly hard. Please reread if you don't understand.

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exactly, this game still lacks the middle-ground of difficulty. especially harder content for 4 people would be nice, because it's way easier to find and coordinate 4 people than 8. that alone will make savage content for 4 people easier than for 8 people and could fit the middle-ground.

i hope for deep dungeon, but my expectations are low :x

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Not trying to be rude or anything, just curious is you are aware of: Minimum Item Level....

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You're right though, the minimum iLV does the same thing as doing it as a "+1 Dungeon" making this an option to put on but go into roulette would be fun. I say roulette only because that's where people go. Some incentive may be increased Tomes or XP. Along with some Achievement.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

Lets make dungeons which are already implemented in game challenging again by adding completly optional challenge future with adjustable difficulty levels.
Easy to implement with just simply modifiers of already included in game content.

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True, the dungeons are beautiful in my eyes (yes all of them!) so the ground work is there. On top of the +1 dungeon or the minimum iLV I could see all the suggestions here to make these dungeons fun but challenging.

* The minimum iLV or the ability to increase the dungeon level would take care of the basics: Using Cooldowns to compensate for the extra damage, extra healing power or reducing damage.

* You are absolutely right in your comments on how we can skip some mechanics and ignore the fights. Even in min-iLV. I think they have to adjust these to where it won't be a wipe, but do it enough and you will. Forgiving, but not too forgiving I guess? Not in dungeons either..I think of Guildhests too.

* Adjust the AoE indicators. Stone Vigil HM was a good example of how, if done correctly, we can see the mob performing the action and can try to adjust. Or the Vault, that shows that we can do indicators other than the orange, but have to watch out. (Maybe that's a QoL on my end and not needed?)

* Tank busters - Hullbreaker Isle HM and Vigil HM stand out in my mind with the tank busters. Heighten those so we know they're dangerous. As a healer, I remember when I first saw those dragons swipe hard at my tank. My mind went back to turn 5 where you had to have Stoneskin up at the right time. Properly timed buffs is a great little mental toolkit to have for later, so teach it along the way?

* AoE and debuffing. When I think of it, I remember Pharos Sirius. The elementals that would cast banish would make me heal, I always have my targets on that little guy. So instead of an intense tank buster, make a mid-heavy AoE for the group. Mix that up with stuff like healing reduced debuff (make me use esuna more?), then I have to do more than spam my dps and toss in a cure.

* Adds could always enhance each other in another way, think of the Wanderers Palace HM. Where the mobs were by a staff that boosted them. Well, to go with what you said earlier how we can ignore things and get by, we just move them out of the circle. But what if they were tethered and as a group they enhanced each other with Dmg -%, or another that gave them shock spikes..that could be debuffed.

* Alone, those traps for the most part in PotD are a joke, though sometimes..in the right situations it can be devastating. Still the % of bad is low compared to being able to ease through it. I would think with potent / unique traps mixed with everything else it would be helpful. Alone? Not so great..combinded? Could be something.

Then again to adjust for all of this, maybe we need less trash along the way. Toss in a heavy hitter along the way for the groups of 3. I think for a while, in lower dungeons, you gather these groups of mobs and do single target damage so much you're bored. You just did your rotation so many times and only took out 3 guys..doing it 30 more times it gets repetitive. 1.0 had an AoE toggle for spells so stone would be AoE. Melee had abilities that made their weaponskills LoS andother ways to hit multiple mobs. At a cost of course, higher MP / Casting time..

If it takes too long a lot of people will not care though. I fully agree that dungeons need to be more difficult, and there needs to be a learning curve so that when you hit 50 or 60 it's not such a giant gap. Ways for players to learn rotations on their own and ask "why is it so hard to heal/tank/kill?"

Instance challenge is a particular hot-button topic right now, I think, because generally in FFXIV content is either mind-numbingly easy or ball-bustingly hard. There's usually no middle ground. I agree that adding a WoW-style Heroic or Mythic difficulty to the table with each dungeon introduced would be a good idea, instead of the current method of re-introducing an older dungeon as a 'Hard Mode' in future patches (which isn't always a harder variant of it's older counterpart... glaring at you, Hullbreaker HM).

It'd be easy enough to sit down, design a dungeon, then create a few variant mechanics and mobs with greater stats to plop into the dungeon as a Heroic mode that gets introduced alongside new dungeons. That way veteran players who clear the normal content quickly have something else to do besides mindlessly farming tomes or bashing their heads against Savage content.

Would agree if thete was an extreme mode version of dungeons but make it with harder mechanics ive done dungeons at minimun i lvl it doesnt really make a difference its not like raid difficulty plustreasure dtops of 10 ilvls or higher of the current dungeon would be nice

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Originally Posted by Rennies

We want harder, but not static shatteringly hard. Please reread if you don't understand.

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Oh i understood you completly right, but i can tell you how it will be if you add an extra mode for the 4 people dungeons. One part of the people start to demand that the harder modes should have better drops or more tomes as reward, the second part will complain that this mode is to hard. And IF it would give better rewards for the harder version, people will start to complain about that too, because they want the higher rewards but they don't want to do it the hard way.

SE could make the comming dungeons harder, but people would start to complain that its to hard for casuals and others who don't want to spend long in dungeons for roulettes will complain about the 5-10 minutes that it will take longer to finish a roulette dungeon. I mean just take a look how many people complain that it is to hard and other people complain about "bad" players in there.

I understand your wish but the chance is most likely 0 especially since SE wants to make even the savage raids and the primals easier to keep the casual players at bay.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

One part of the people start to demand that the harder modes should have better drops or more tomes as reward, the second part will complain that this mode is to hard. And IF it would give better rewards for the harder version, people will start to complain about that too, because they want the higher rewards but they don't want to do it the hard way.

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I disagree with this. I don't think people are so unreasonable that they would think it's okay to demand higher tier rewards without doing higher tier content. If anything it may push traditionally casual players into a less casual mindset to try and achieve these higher tier rewards. Pushing dungeons out with a normal mode and a heroic mode is the best of both worlds. Casual players get gear aimed at casual content and hardcore players get better gear aimed at more hardcore content. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

1. i am the healer, its braindead easy and i dont really have hope for top 100 levels.
2. cleared savage like 3 months ago

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you could go solo savage now :)

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

Casual players get gear aimed at casual content and hardcore players get better gear aimed at more hardcore content.

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Shouldn't you give casual players far better gear so they can compensate their lack of skill with it and join hardcore content instead?

It's somewhat odd that people claim better players should better gear when the purpose of bettering your gear is to make content easier through higher DPS, more margin of error etc. That is exactly what less skilled players need in order to engage in harder content and exactly what better players prove they don't. Thus, in order to justify it, you need even harder content that requires this higher DPS and higher margin of error even for better skilled players. Even among the better skilled players however, there are differences - some would need better equipment for that content, but they cannot get it, whereas the even better skilled do get it by proving they don't need it. That in turn...

If you're consequent about it, it's pretty much a sieve system that can be done as often as you like until only one hardcore group remains, while a constantly increasing amount of people gets locked off content. Granted, in theory - in practice, SE probably wouldn't have the ressources to play the exclusion game all the way to the end. I don't think that's a very good system overall, though.

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

Casual players get gear aimed at casual content and hardcore players get better gear aimed at more hardcore content.

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The problem here is what do you define as casual content and what do you define as hardcore content in a game like this where we all have to do the same content to progress? EQII did this and it turned into the solo content and gear was for the casuals and everything else, even just basic dungeons, started to be balanced toward the more hardcore because the content wasn't challenging enough. There was even one expansion that was too hard for the solo fanbase when it first came out because it had been balanced toward hardcore gear in the beta. That got updated, but it was unpleasant just trying to complete the solo content in open zones when it first launched. If you're going to say the MSQ here should be balanced around more hardcore gear, then you lock the casual fanbase out of MSQ progression.

There certainly needs to be more mid-core content, if SE did something like revamp all old 50/60 dungeons so that the monsters were harder with not as many aoe indicators, like doing a extreme version of a primal fight etc. and had a few new mechanics for the bosses, i think they could easily make all the old dungeons into something special and fun to get a weekly reward on...something you do every week, but not spam grind it all week since it will still be fairly challenging and no one wants to grind challenging content all week. It will be like doing 24 man raid once a week.

It wouldn't be hard to revamp older dungeons, the assets are already there and i am sure players would look at these dungeons a lot differently if you weren't freaking over-leveled for a EXPERT LEVEL DUNGEON on RELEASE DAY making it push over easy for most parties never truly getting to appreciate the dungeon for what is...it ends up as just another boring grind instead of being fairly daunting challenge. Also they should make the rewards for these dungeons only accessible through a roulette or something to prevent players from just spamming the easiest one over and over.

I agree, a certain other MMORPG has implemented a system like that, and it almost made me go back to it, almost... It is something SE should really look into as it creates potential to create relevant content for when only 4 people in FC is on. Maybe 51-200 palace can fulfill that need, but it would really need to drop relevant gear for that to truly happen.

Removing the big red circle on the ground would make any new released dongeon much harder since no one would dodge anything.

I think you already have the power to make content more challenging if you wish without any changes being made - simply get a group, and go in using minimal gear, or just take 2 people into a dungeon, or choose an unlikely group of classes/jobs to do certain content - and if you think POTD is joke easy, go do it solo.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Removing the big red circle on the ground would make any new released dongeon much harder since no one would dodge anything.

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Mostly referring to the bosses, having too watch their animations/cast bars more than the aoes on the ground.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

Realese of Potd proven that traps are jokes and Potd is joke in matter of difficulty.
Also NO to your tomes, i dont need tomes, i need challenge.

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Try it again with 4 DPS on a no-regen floor and see if you don't care about having one person scout ahead to clear traps.

And why shouldn't the reward be proportionate to the difficulty?

And if number tuning is a good enough start, why not just allow players to run minimum ilvl and undermanned parties (to a cap of player choice) even via duty finder and receive bonus rewards based proportionately on the difference between their highest ilvl job and the minimum ilvl used for the instance, to a cap or following whatever non-linear exchange rate people would find balanced for time (including effort) vs. reward (including fun), or split the empty slots' share (+ a small further bonus), respectively?

Personally, I'm just hoping for means to make challenging versions of various dungeons relevant again, instead of being limited to two dungeons per patch.

The new dungeons this patch, at least in terms of dungeon design is great, the difficulty well, there is none really. They really should make away with the "Hard Mode" naming also, lol
Procedural generated stuff would be a way to go, POTD uses this (somewhat) but could be great to have varied enemies every time you go in.


Ok that is just my opinion anyhow, that is totally fine if some do not agree with me

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Originally Posted by Maero

The new dungeons this patch, at least in terms of dungeon design is great, the difficulty well, there is none really. They really should make away with the "Hard Mode" naming also, lol
Procedural generated stuff would be a way to go, POTD uses this (somewhat) but could be great to have varied enemies every time you go in.


Ok that is just my opinion anyhow, that is totally fine if some do not agree with me

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I am fine with any opinion I just not understand how can newly realesed dungeons can be considered as good difficulty. Atleast not good for everyone i think. I think its just same as old with new graphic. Nothing changed at all. Thats why I asked for option to be able to choose difficulty according of prefference.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

You need challenge go have a test of savage

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But now Savage is dumbed down. The reason is there isn't enough stuff to ease people into harder fights. You used to get either get face roll easy, or actual quality challenges. Now you get face roll easy, or kind of a challenge. Adding higher difficulties for dungeons wouldn't take too much money. The art assets are the same, and you would simply add maybe a couple mechanics. It would go a long way to smooth out the progression of difficulty of the game to help teach players their jobs. Which would make it so they didn't have to neuter savage.

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

I do expect real challenge from 100 to 200

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With the way palace of the dead is designed, I highly doubt it. It only has a chance if they design floors 100-200 for a 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps set up. If it is designed for 4 dps to be able to clear it again it will be a joke no matter what as long as you have a healer, tank, or both.