A Question to Endgame Summoners

I recently picked up SMN again after being a tank as it is by far my personal favourite amongst DPS classes and I consider switching to it for endgame (or at least “second-maining” it). Now after reading up on it on forums and watching YT videos, guides and so forth (thanks for the awesome summoner guide on here – I didn’t read all 148 pages though, so, sorry if the answer is somewhere in this thread) I often came across the notion that while being very fun to play SMN is performing poorer in the damage department compared to other DPS and if one really wants to be off well DPSing it’s not the best choice.

So, I wondered what exactly that entails. Does it mean that:

1) SMN is harder to play than other classes if you want to maximize your damage output but you can definitely get to top efficiency if you know how to play it well. It just takes more effort to learn and keep your performance up compared to other jobs.

2) SMN could be as efficient as any other DPS but its design calls for another playing style than what is currently favoured by the community. So it looks good on paper but is almost never translated into reality.

3) It is just not as good by design and no amount of skill can counter-balance it to reach the damage output of other DPS classes. It’s a balance issue that needs to be fixed on the development side.

4) None of the above. What else could it be?

I can definitely live with reason 1 as long as I know I can get there. Reason 2 would be sad but maybe I can find a group that takes the job’s differences into account and adjusts some situations to it. Reason 3 (and possibly 4) would be quite sad though.

I know that you are supposed to be able to clear content with any job and I understand the sentiment of “If you like it, just play it” but to me personally it would feel much better if you know your job is also as viable as others and you can contribute as well as everyone else. I’d feel horrible if others let me play with them out of sympathy while getting better results if other classes were involved if you get what I mean. (Not that it isn’t incredibly nice when people let you play what you want and don’t put results over playing by all means – but that a job would fall into this category in the first place would be sad and make you feel a bit like the fifth wheel.)

So, are my sorrows unjustified or should I be prepared for this to happen?


Thank you very much in advance!

SMN is fine.

If you want to be optimal just play BLM and SMN so you have the option to switch if one suits a fight better.

Generally people like BLM in prog due to Apoc and (to an extent) Manaward/wall. However, due to BLM's playstyle, they also usually require catering and specific strategies developed to optimize their DPS.

SMN provides traited Virus, Raise, mobility, and ~*DoTz*~.

Basically, none of this matters if you aren't shooting for world first, but I'd recommend leveling both just so you have the tools to help your group if they need it.

I don't think Summoner is underpowered at all, but it is perhaps the most cerebral of all of the DPS jobs to play. Since there isn't an actual rotation, you basically make a decision of what to cast on a gcd by gcd basis. So any imperfect decision lowers dps from what it could optimally be. Additionally, and especially from a raiding perspective, there are 2 major decision making factors that impact DPS.

1.) When and how to get into DWT faster than the perfect long game dps method to ensure you never lose a stack while maximing DPS. Also since we have a lot of AOE - many things can change based on how many enemies there are.
2.) Max DPS includes as many outside DWT Ruin3's as possible. Riding your mana aggressively while ensuring you don'r run out can be tricky and also changes on an encounter by encounter basis

Summoner is better than black mage at the moment in the majority of savage, so I'm not sure why you would be hearing that it is doing 'poorer', since black mage is its only competition for the caster spot. Maybe they are comparing it to melee? If so, that's pretty irrelevant in an 8 man group.

It's a very strong job, a little lacking in utility perhaps (unless healers die for some reason), but there isn't a serious raid group that wouldn't be happy to have one.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Summoner is better than black mage at the moment in the majority of savage, so I'm not sure why you would be hearing that it is doing 'poorer', since black mage is its only competition for the caster spot. Maybe they are comparing it to melee? If so, that's pretty irrelevant in an 8 man group.

It's a very strong job, a little lacking in utility perhaps (unless healers die for some reason), but there isn't a serious raid group that wouldn't be happy to have one.

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Simply put, BLM is better on single targets; SMN is the AOE king. Regarding utility, SMN is the only job outside of healers that has a battle raise. It also has Supervirus and Eye for an Eye. Although a SCH also has these, I wouldn't necessarily say that it's lacking in utility.

Our static's summoner is consistently one of our top dps. He's almost always at the top of the chart. Our AST frequently gives him an extended or buffed Balance card.

Summoner is very competitive, especially with other party buffs. When he does his serious burst when our ninja puts up trick attack, he really brings the pain.

In our group qe have both smn and blm and our amn beats our blm. Smn is very good at a a5s and a6s since alot aoe situations and where you cannot cast alot like during boost

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Originally Posted by Loggos

1) SMN is harder to play than other classes if you want to maximize your damage output but you can definitely get to top efficiency if you know how to play it well. It just takes more effort to learn and keep your performance up compared to other jobs.

2) SMN could be as efficient as any other DPS but its design calls for another playing style than what is currently favoured by the community. So it looks good on paper but is almost never translated into reality.

3) It is just not as good by design and no amount of skill can counter-balance it to reach the damage output of other DPS classes. It’s a balance issue that needs to be fixed on the development side.

4) None of the above. What else could it be?

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1) it definitely is more busy then any other DPS job with managing your pet, DoTs, Aethertrail stacks, pet buffs for fights it takes longer to ramp up your DPS compared to other DPS like Drgs and Blms but their sustain is really good. A lot of summoners just blow their load and don't know how to stagger their Aethertrails they see the 30 seconds and go "crap I have to use it now!" when they could: Aetherflow, wait for fester to come back from CD and then pop Dreadwyrm, Tri Disaster, Fester and finish your Ruin III Spam. A lot of summoners do not see that because combined with Contagion those DoTs tick in the mid 1500-1600s which is HUGE.

2) Smn is very rewarding and can compete with DPS like monks, drgs, nins etc it's all on the player/gear myself screwing around in Gordias Normal for a friend to get their relic on Gordias floor 1 I finished at 1776 DPS and i'm only ilvl 228 with a Nidhogg weapon. People want dynamic summoners instead of a DoT class which I understand but because of this fantasy class design that they want they're turned off of Smn from the start and never give it a chance.

3) The question comes down to: Do you like DoT dmg? Do you like controlling a pet? Do you want to strive and improve to be a better Smn? If you said yes to all of this and practice you'll surprise yourself learning the rotations and DoT priorities make the difference between a good and bad Smn. Deathflare combined with Foes can reach some insane dmg upwards of 12k and with all the crit stacking on a Smn and your pet with DoTs is actually kind of scary just how much dmg a Smn can really do, it's not as big number heavy as a blm but it's there in the DoTs and Ruin III + Deathflare crits before Ruin III used to be 120 potency now it's 220 which is huge.

4) All I can really say from my perspective as a Smn in A5S and A6S is that my dmg isn't mediocre I main Drk but this and Drg are my off DPS classes and in A5S in my current gear and knowing the fight in and out I can end at 1400-1500 DPS and sustain over 1700. To me Smns aren't a fifth wheel I enjoy it, does great DPS, and brings battle rez, Eye for an Eye and Virus which are great defensive abilities. Give it another chance and do the Stone, Sea, Sky dummies and if you can clear them and feel positive about it try EX Trials and see if you like it in an 8 man raid setting or even Midas normal if you want to do that as well.

Sorry for the huge post I hope you give summoner another chance it's the most underplayed job in the game and a lot struggle with it but with all DPS classes practicing and getting comfortable is the most important if you can DPS and do mechanics just by muscle memory and conquer that you'll be in the clear.

I just checked fflogs for Midas savage and the top 100 highest DPS are SMN's. Literally littered with them lol. The only savage instance where SMN does not have an overwhelming presence is the fight in A7S against Allthinks.

I think SMN is in a really good spot at the moment, if not one of the best DPS positions.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Stuff

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I agree with everything in this post as a Summoner main. One thing I have to ask, sorry if it's slightly offtopic, are Summoners really that underplayed?

Ontopic: Gonna keep this short since Awful covered everything well: Summoner is highly viable at endgame, the DPS they dish is up well with everyone else, however like mentioned, you have to put work into rotation, utility, your dots, your pet, mechanics, Aetherflow skills, Aetherflow Stacks, and probably other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm still in the process of working on my rotation.

They do require more work than other jobs I feel, however, it's so rewarding when you put in those smexy numbers, when you Virus that powerful attack and save the life of your party members, when you res that party member and go on to save the run. There's so much to Summoners that make them so fun; they're a casting class with a lot of mobility and Utility. Get a Bard to pop Foe's Requiem, Trick attack, and omg, I can attest to 12K Crit Deathflares with just Foe's up

Thanks Kuzo means a lot coming from a Summoner main! Literally took me a month to perfect my rotations and figure out in Savage and Nidhogg/Seph Ex to do the most dmg and it's been paying off immensely. To answer your question yeah Summoners are right there with Machinists as the most underplayed class it's really sad both are fun and have their pros and cons but overall I might switch to Summoner in 3.4 when it comes out as a tank main doing good DPS and having good DPS are far and inbetween.

Based solely on Stone Sea Sky numbers SMN is expected to do more damage than MCH and BRD and almost as much as NIN. That is on a stationary single target with no mechanics. Once you take into account that a SMN excels in AOEs/applying DOTs to multiple targets, DOTs can still tick sometimes even when things can't be targeted, and that SMN loses less dps while avoiding mechanics because DOTs and pet are still going .. it is a very strong dps class.

I think it does take more planning than other classes though. Timing your DOTs to get the most out of them .. There's nothing worse than popping DWT just as something goes invulnerable for 15 seconds so knowing the fight timing is vital .. Making sure Tri-disaster is ready for the add that will show up .. Do you swiftcast Shadow Flare or save swiftcast in case some needs a rez .. Timing Bane just right as things walk past each other ... It requires a lot of attention but it's my favorite class for that reason.

Sorry, I totally neglected this thread after starting it but I wanted to thank you all for your feedback! :) It was very encouraging and I feel assured now to progress further on this job as I really enjoy its play style. It is possible that my sources regarding SMN's dps were simply out of date (I picked it up from older discussions and YT reviews that compared BLM and SMN) or the people I got it from were just incorrect.
So anyways, thank you and cheers. ^^