I think Enmity generation in early content still needs tuning adjustments

Sword Oath and Shield Oath

WAR and DRK receive their +Enmity stance at L30, and it feels like content and DPS output is balanced around this inflection point in L30+ Duties.

PLD receives Sword Oath at L30, its DPS stance, and must wait until L40 to receive Shield Oath, its +Enmity stance.

Experienced PLD learn to handle being sync'd down to the L30-40 'hell levels' by using aggressive Savage/Halone tabbing and excessive Flash, etc. However, experienced players are not the focus of my concern.

I constantly encounter new players (Sprouts, or players leveling a Tank for the first time, etc) that struggle terribly in Brayflox, Qarn, and Cutter's Cry (and sometimes Haukke).

Multiple times I've tried to offer tips, and received apologies because they think they're a terrible tank and want to give up. I'm losing count of the number of fresh PLD I've had to reassure to hold out until L40, and that no, they're not just awful.

A new player learning to tank is often already struggling and intimidated enough, on top of being undergeared compared to sync'd-down DPS. Deliberately giving PLD a DPS stance, when the other tanks have their +Enmity stance, only further increases the pressure and confusion as DPS and Healers constantly rip targets away despite the new PLD's best efforts.

I see this as a pointless and unnecessary torment for Sprouts/new tanks, in a Role that already has difficulty attracting and retaining players. Please consider swapping Shield Oath to the L30 reward and moving Sword Oath to the L40 reward.

Low-level Tanks in general

Enmity generation at lower levels also needs to be looked at since the 3.2 changes (despite the adjustments made in 3.2x). Sprout or new tanks of all three Jobs are under enormous pressure from sync'd-down DPS and Healers before their +Enmity stance, and less-experienced players simply have Enmity ripped off non-stop.

It does not make sense to me that the Tanking role's task of holding Enmity is made so difficult at the earliest levels, when new players are trying and testing it. This leads to early frustration, guilt, or discouragement in a Role that needs more interest, not less.

I do appreciate the sense of progression designed in to the system currently. It is a triumphant feeling to struggle with Enmity at first, then figure out how it works and do better. It's also very vindicating to finally receive your +Enmity stance and begin effortlessly holding entire packs of enemies.

However, I think this sense of progression is not worth the cost, because the number of players it simply discourages completely very likely outweighs the number that stubbornly persevere through a consistently stressful experience for 15-25 levels.

And, if nothing else, it's just not a very fun experience for most players that do struggle through it the first time, especially while also struggling with being undergeared.

It doesn't. Low level tanks just need to use more Flash/Overpower/Unleash and not have gear 10 levels under their current level. They don't even make an effort to keep up with NPC gear.

Pld is proably easiest class to hold aggro. At lvl 40+ we don't need to make it super easy. It's a game its supposed to be challenging. Please stop posting these kinds of topics. We should't hand feed our tanks or hand feed our players

When I started the game a little bit before HW launched (I powered through all of the ARR storylines in about a month to get ready for the xpac because goddammit I wanted dark knight asap) I had a lot of trouble holding enmity as a gladiator in my very first dungeon run. I ended up asking the party I was in for help and some experienced players were very kind in giving me advice on how to play as a lowbie, i.e. spam flash and use riot blade to keep my MP up and it helped a little but they were still ripping off of me. When I asked if there was anything else I could do they said "if someone is ripping threat off of you but the monster is dying that fast, don't worry about it, just let them kill it and focus on the surviving ones."

The fact is that a brand new marauder or gladiator just getting in to dungeons for the very first time is not going to be able to hold threat off max ilevel (in the lowbie dungeons) brds or blms. I'd say the better thing to do in that situation is to tell the lowbie tank "hey, I'm pretty overgeared for this, if you can't hold threat off me don't worry about it." That being said though there is a possible solution I came up with, I'm about to make up numbers here but bear with me.

Let's pretend with shield oath a paladin generates 200 extra threat on all attacks and a Gladiator/Paladin without it generates 0 extra threat on all attacks. What if we adjust those numbers? Give Paladin and Gladiator (before shield oath) 100 extra threat on all moves and then once the Paladin receives shield oath the number goes back to 200. Now granted this might tanking in sword oath a little easier, but I always felt the risk you take for tanking in dps stance shouldn't be lower threat generation but the increased damage you take.

I'm not sure how it might work for Warrior or Dark Knight, but I think that idea above could easily work for paladin/gladiator.

the irony is that the dark knight - wich starts at lvl 30 - has probably the easiest job keeping enmity in low lvl before 30 xD

spamming unleash, and then using blood weapon to get the mana back while using the enmity combo.

the problem in low lvl is that only 1 of the 2 hits of your enmity combo have an enmity multiplier. once you have the 3rd hit it's 2 of 3 hits with enmity multiplier and things are getting much easier. probably they should take away some enmity generation from the 3rd hit and put it on the first? nah, even if it helps, i don't like this idea myself xD

btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

Warrior and dark knight never really had enmity issues unless you mess up your skills but aggro combos are pretty straightforward and for aoe, unleash and overpower do perfectly since they both deal damage and generate aggro.

Pld mby has the only issue but its not that dramatic. Single target combo finalizes at 26 with rage of halone and flash is the way to go until 40 (becomes better with shield oath).
But i believe if tanks marked their targets for dps and healers stop heal non-stop there is hardly an aggro problem in this game.

Pfft. It's pretty rare to see anyone in low level content take marked targets seriously. Half the time folks will actively go against it.

Even if it's sorta functional to tank at those levels, I would propose it's not a very fun experience. Whether various ideas to "fix" the problems would address that, dunno. But, "spam Flash for the next 10 levels" doesn't seem like a great way to draw in tanks.

Arguably, many classes can feel similarly rigid, so maybe that's a poor argument to make. Idk.

Tanking is basically a soft version of pvp - you need to fight against the enmity of other players.

The enmity generation isn't that bad for experienced and lvl synced players... but for the new undergeared paladins (tanks) it can be serious pain to play with overgeared players who have the habbit to get out as much dps as possible - and I can't say that having the choice between slacking or stealing the enmity is enjoyable for the dps in roulettes either.

It wouldn't hurt to put enmity modifier on the low level weapons tbh.

Honestly, while low level newbie sprout taking is hardly relevant to any sort balance discussion, in this case it is a serious problem. Tanking is serviceable at such level, but clunky. and I would hardly call it "easy"

I mean even as ilvl 233 tanks with more than enough experience in say... sastasha, it is actually difficult if not actually impossible to even hold single-target emnity. in my case using my emnity combo or Flash/OP/Unleash will have me steadily losing emnity to the DPS at those levels. it becomes a race. im not tanking. im DPSing as much as my level 18 butt can so the thing dies before it turns around. its rare that things last that long, but it can and does happen with another evenly "skilled" or synced DPS.... like a BLM or BRD.

I don't have a proposed change. its a delicate thing. But I also cant agree with one of the 3 roles of the trinity being impossible at best and outright useless and uneeded at worst, even at "irrelevant" levels. besides... how is that even fun for you? "let me just queue for this thing and be useless and expendable!"

Then again, we can keep this prideful mentality. weed out the weak so only the strong are in the DF! we need even LESS tanks to queue with! We want to wait longer than the time-out penalty because our rare and elusive tank bailed on us!

I'm all for good design that actually teaches newbies what the heck to actually do but trial by fire in such a way that theyre actually useless at best and actively scorned on top of that doesnt actually teach them anything either.

If the Bard unloads 400 potency within the first half-second of combat (Heavy Shot + Bloodletter + Auto-attack), you're not going to hold it with a mere Shield Lob unless you outgear the Bard. But, that's the Bard's fault if he then complains, and fails to take the ripped mob to your others. He can as easily wait for a following Flash, or bring the mob to it, to never end up targeted or get it off by the second GCD. Most issues you'll find with tanking in early dungeons are much the same, as long as your gear is up to level. If Sword Oath isn't sufficient, it's because your dps are splitting your output paths (one wailing on a single mob, which Flash might not be able to keep up with, while the other is only AoEing, or worse, each on a different mob); if they establish and follow a kill order together, extreme difference in crit rates are about the only thing that should pull of you.

I just wonder why this burden is considered to fall only on the tank when every party member is potentially responsible for mob positioning (see healer-based mob gathers, or ranged kiting). Early levels should be when mobs are being practically vaporized in series, and Fluid Aura still feels like a full-length CC, and no shits are given when a dps takes threat from the tank because he has defensive cooldowns too and is moving right alongside the tank.

As such, I caution changes made to make tanking easier by sheer numbers. It teaches the dps little to nothing about how NOT to rip threat. I'd be more than happy to see more game advice thrown in, though, without having to rely on the community who in a given run, may all be under-utilizing their tools.

If we do go the way of numbers though, I'd kind of like to see Flash and Overpower's massive enmity multipliers as being the answer to virtually everything, which can be done with a tiny bit of increased enmity on single-target combos. But that's just me.

I main healer and have a dps @60 as well, just now taking DRK up to 60 (I had PLD stuck at 50). Spending some time in the lowbie dungeons I think one of the main issues is that synched down players are playing their dps roles just as they would in expert: i.e. putting out as much dmg as possible without regard for the enmity meter since it doesn't matter at high level, usually. If a new tank comes into this type of player in Sastasha, Tam Tara, Halatali, etc., they are likely to have to fight more with the enmity of their party mates than the mobs/bosses, as others have mentioned.

I don't think the problem is enmity modifiers or such (though PLD could use just a tad more, maybe) -- I think the real issue lies with the party not playing the dungeon with a mind towards helping the tank. Instead of going all out because you think you're not being a proper dps if you don't put up the highest dps you can, why not look at the enmity meter next to the mobs and if you see yourself close to taking aggro, attempt to change target, use an enmity lowering skill, or something similar? We know that if you take aggro and will kill the mob in the next second or 2 it doesn't matter, but taking and keeping aggro will always be detrimental to new tanks who are trying their best. Sure, getting a little provoke practice in is all good now and then, but the way the starting dungeons are made, and the parties I've had with new tanks there as both healer and dps (and tanking them myself), the enmity "problem" is more to do with people not caring about how they are making the experience for the tank who is struggling to learn and/or even just hold hate.

As Aethys said above -- this kind of thing just turns people off from tanking and is one of the major reason there is always such a shortage. Who wants to always have an uphill battle in a dungeon against not just the mobs, but your own party? Of course people will choose the much easier route of dps or even healing instead of having to be responsible for pulling and holding hate vs. overzealous dps or healer spam. People just need to be more mindful in the starting dungeons about their own enmity, and adjust accordingly. Note that this doesn't apply to later and HW dungeons where tanks should hardly, if ever, lose aggro with their tank stance and more skills.

Honestly, I'm more against the principle than the actual numbers or situation.

The game has 3 roles. so any content that is DESIGNED for those 3 roles and doesnt fulfill them, or ideas or mentalities that encourage it, I am firmly against.

I agree to the extent that tanking shouldn't be so easy that no one learns. we honestly have enough of that, even at 60. the "perfect" sytem we have where everyone needs to just "git gud" already isn't working, guys. Lest we forget the quality of "DF Tanks".

However, i am firmly and adamantly against the current state of tanking entry. your FIRST REQUIRED GROUP ACTIVITY....... and youre dead weight. honestly and truly. theres not a single boss, mechanic, or otherwise that a DPS cant facetank as well as if not better than a dedicated tank- and they hit harder. That is just so... wrong in my mind. On top of being new, having little experience, and CLEARLY failing in the role you're assigned... I've witnessed on multiple occasions open redicule, not unlike the "git gud" mentality we have going on.

all this culminates to there being less tanks in general, and even then, the quality tends to be seen as sub-par. Alot of that could be mitigated if the very FIRST experience in the role wasn't such a barrier. healers dont need to be constantly healing, DPS really cant go wrong doing anything, but tanks? they need to have the best possible gear, they need to move fast enough for impatient DF players, they have little to no freedom in what to do, and the effective/only way to actually do their role? use 1 button. period. on everything. ever. even LANCER has more freedom than that!

fun might be suggestive. alot of you might play this game like a job. sastasha-haukke might be useless content. but it means the world to newbies, and has more repercussions than i think people here give enough thought to. having less tanks is bad thing when theyre required to access content. i mean, theres even a freaking post still being replied to here on the first page about how tanks leaving queues ruins things for the 3 other people. making it harder for newbie tanks to even WANT to tank and learn only makes that pool larger. makes that "horror story" much more common. there will be less tanks to go around and make the % of that pool that dont care that much larger as a result.

Whether or not you all agree with it, there NEEDS to be a smoother entry to tanking than there already is. "DF Tanks" or "impairment to fun" will only be more and more the norm if we cling to this mentality we have now.

I'm not saying give them every tool they need by 18. I'm not saying give them a tank stance that early. I'm not saying hold their hand. I'm not saying give them a grenade launcher that 1-shots everything in a 60y range. but there needs to be SOME padding. they at least need to COMFORTABLY fulfill their ROLE, even at such a low level

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Whether or not you all agree with it, there NEEDS to be a smoother entry to tanking than there already is. "DF Tanks" or "impairment to fun" will only be more and more the norm if we cling to this mentality we have now.

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Honestly they just need to include a quest/duty at lvl 15 for your class (glad/war/even drk if it's your first tank) to throw you into an instanced version of Hall of Novice that gives you a green weapon and off hand (if you're a pld). This would show tanks to use their enmity skills and how to utilize them in different scenarios, this would be equivalent to WoWs trial before you do mythics/heroics it serves the same purpose readying the player before their role.

There's only so much hand holding MMOs can do for people but my honest opinion as a tank main is that there's no issues with threat even with an alt that I had in Satasha with no Hall of Novice gear I had no issues with people who were sync'd. Yeah I have lvl 60 tanks, and I know what i'm doing, but being a lvl 15 gladiator in Satasha with no green items and 1 ring I still had an easy time so people that are that lvl/gear should be having the same time.

It doesn't really matter in pre-30 dungeons. You don't really need a tank at all for them to be honest.

If I lose something in those I tend to just leave it, I'm probably not getting it back before it's dead.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

It doesn't really matter in pre-30 dungeons. You don't really need a tank at all for them to be honest.

If I lose something in those I tend to just leave it, I'm probably not getting it back before it's dead.

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While its not fun, nor does it feel good, but this is honestly the best attitude to have when u dont have either your 3rd hit combo, or tank stance.

I second Fluffernuff's posts. As others mentioned if you are in a low-level dungeon with an overgeared crowd and you lose aggro it will probably not cause a detrimental effect. I love pld but those low-level dungeons sure feel even more like chores than when I play other classes. If you have an understanding group and you lose aggro they won't mind&just burn the mobs but you’ll feel a bit expandable. It doesn't bother ME but if you are new those dungeons are supposed to be your learning stage. I don't say "handfeed" people but making sth more approachable=/=handfeeding. If you are a new gladiator/paladin you will either have an extra layer of stress to an already relatively stressful role, when you maybe don't know your job well enough yet. Or your group is so good that you don't really need to go through your rotations/have fewer learning moments and you clear the dungeon anyways. Compared to other classes for a NEW player this might be off-putting, esp. if this lasts till 40.

Ehhh it's fine, it's the syncING that causes new lower level tanks to struggle. Even tho they are synced say to level 35 that person is still outputting more dmg then someone who is lvl 35

Here we go again...tank aggro is fine, get good.

People who are saying there's no issue here and that fresh tanks should "git gud" may not have started lvling up a tank from scratch after the changes made to tanks some patches ago.

They lowered the tanks' attack power (and they also made VIT contribute to their damage and at the same rate as STR, but that's irrelevant to this discussion). This would also lower tank enmity and instead of adjusting the enmity multipliers on the skills they decided to increase the enmity on tank stances (shield oath, defiance and grit). So because of this change tanking at lower lvls before you get your tank stance is harder now than it used to be back in the day, even if you're properly geared. PLDs get the worst of it. They already had a tougher job pre-nerf, now it's hell.

While tank vets may adjust to the current situation it's super harsh for new players as it is, and it's super discouraging to keep losing aggro every now and then. I've made a few alts after the change and I can testify that it's a lot harder than it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

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Some days ago, I did a low level roulette and I got into the level 17 Tam-Tara story mode as an AST (level 55ish synced down). The Gladiator was fairly well geared for its level but was constantly losing aggro to me, solely DPSing in C.Stance the whole time and just healed him when he was in the 10-15% HP range back to full HP with only 1 to 2 spells. In every single pull I was tanking at least 1 to 2 mobs, and during the final boss he literally STRUGGLED like HELL to keep aggro, sometimes he lost it, then got it back, then lost it again etc... So much that I kept standing in melee range to prevent the boss from moving. The guy was doing the correct threat rotation, he couldn't do anything more to keep aggro. Fast blade - Savage blade on single targets, spam flash and rotating fast blade - savage blade between targets on groups, and he used FoF on CD.

So yeah. I don't think that they just have to "Git gud". Since the tank AP change, it has become quite challenging to keep aggro for beginner tanks until they get their tanking stance, especially for Gladiators. A small tweak would be nice. Either give the tanking stance at level 15 (first dungeon ?), or add a low level small enmity boost as a passive trait to every tank class.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

People who are saying there's no issue here and that fresh tanks should "git gud" may not have started lvling up a tank from scratch after the changes made to tanks some patches ago.

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I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

The guy was doing the correct threat rotation, he couldn't do anything more to keep aggro. Fast blade - Savage blade on single targets, spam flash and rotating fast blade - savage blade between targets on groups, and he used FoF on CD.

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2x Flash generates nearly 50% more enmity than Fast Blade > Savage Blade (1200 vs 850). If someone is losing aggro through Flash/Unleash/Overpower spam even in single target, they definitely aren't "fairly well geared".

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Originally Posted by Launched

I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

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At this time the playerbase was still figuring the game out, so most of the players you got with (even the high level ones) most likely didn't play perfectly at all (losing GCD uptime, losing AAs by not paying attention to the character's orientation, etc). There still is players like this nowadays but generally when the tank loses aggro it is to someone who plays correctly and deals actually good damage, unless they are just not doing their job, but it's not the subject here.

I'd also like to add that if flash got a 20% enmity boost it is for a reason. Just because naturally skilled players such as you or myself never had problems keeping aggro at low levels doesn't mean that every single average and lower player should struggle like hell to do so, especially during lower levels. It's not end-game, or raiding we're talking about, it's the levelling system and the overall learning experience of the game. The difficulty of keeping aggro in this game is completely backwards. The first levels are much harder than the max level.

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Originally Posted by Launched

2x Flash generates nearly 50% more enmity than Fast Blade > Savage Blade (1200 vs 850). If someone is losing aggro through Flash/Unleash/Overpower spam even in single target, they definitely aren't "fairly well geared".

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Flash spam isn't unlimited, and to refill these MP you need to use a move with no enmity multiplier. I'm fairly certain that F.Blade > S.Blade deals more enmity over time than Flash spam -> R.Blade to refill MP, while obviously also dealing more damage. Overpower spam is really TP starving at low level since you don't have any free oGCD (IB/Cyclone/FC/Decimate) nor Equilibrium. Even on a group of mobs you'll rarely "spam" OP, you'll just use it 2-3 times and rotate single target enmity. Spamming it too much leads you into TP-starving and having to wait for TP regen each GCD, leading into less DPS and less enmity over time. I don't see your point here, it doesn't make any sense.

Actually correction, I leveled a tank after the changes on gilg and still keep aggro fine WITHOUT cross class skills.

Well problem is, sub-lv. 26 for GLD/PLD has horrid aggro-generation (lowest in-game - also note that Unleash 6x aggro and Overpower 5x aggro multipliers and it being AoE based crush 3.5x on Savage Blade (2 GCDs vs 1 for WAR/DRK) and a 0x multiplier on GLD/PLD only AoE w/ Flash), compared to MNKs who can only auto-crit Bootshine @ that point in the game, BRDs who have some of the highest crit %s and BLMs who just have ridiculous potency for their level. So of course, DRK/WAR have little to no problem with holding aggro at low levels, where as, as a GLD I can pull the last boss in Copperbell Mines - Shield Lob into Fight or Flight + Savage Blade spam and as Fight or Flight falls off, even though I'm spamming Savage Blade against a BRD and MNK doing their normal dps, I will lose, every day of the week.

Just another one of those classes who in reality, need a rework for lower levels, but will probably never get it. You just have to bare and grin through it until you get to 40+.

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Originally Posted by NRhodes

Well problem is, sub-lv. 26 for GLD/PLD has horrid aggro-generation (lowest in-game - also note that Unleash 6x aggro and Overpower 5x aggro multipliers and it being AoE based crush 3.5x on Savage Blade (2 GCDs vs 1 for WAR/DRK) and a 0x multiplier on GLD/PLD only AoE w/ Flash),.

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Flash generates 600 potency worth of enmity roughly equal to a non-crit Overpower (120 potency x5 enmity), Unleash (100 x6 enmity) or Abyssal Drain (120 x5 enmity) so the potency of the action is not the problem.

I support the idea of switching the level rewards for SwO and ShO. I think that alone would alleviate some of the PLD levelling struggles without potentially breaking the enmity system already in place (which works fine at end game, imo).

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

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A few days ago on my gladiator lvl 43, I had some i230 geared DPS in low level dungeons helping their healer friend. I never lost aggro once at any boss fight. Maybe during aoe splashes of mobs once or twice but never on bosses. If I can do it, that tank needs to learn to switch targets and pay attention to aggro meters and hit flash if he needs it. I don't even have poetic gear and can still tank.

I know some tanks that think if they use flash they hold aggro indefinitely like previous MMOs but that is their error. I agree hall of novice needs to teach tanks how to watch aggro meters and healers jot to over heal. I actually met a tank on my DPS that didn't know about aggro meters at Pharos Sirius... ridiculous. Most definitely a "git gud" issue. Especially if he is losing aggro to an AST. Even if you over heal it shouldn't be losing aggro so easily.

Level 43 paladin has FoF, Shield Oath, and Rage of Halone so it's just a couple of off-GCDs short of a max level character as far as enmity potential goes. Even if you weren't using the soulstone and were a gladiator (why), Rage of Halone is still way better than pre-26. Also i230 gear level syncs and isn't necessarily indicative of a stellar player. If anything, it's the opposite - at this point in a patch, if you're not full 240 from welfare upgrades then it's not your main class or you haven't been playing.

I don't really think paladin (or any tank) needs any low level enmity boosts, but it isn't that hard to steal hate from a newbie tank just by hitting a button every gcd.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I leveled GLA in 2.0 before Flash got a 20% buff to enmity generation and never had any problems, even though I'd never played an MMO before. Enmity shouldn't be a problem to anyone that's decently geared, and if it somehow is a problem then that's the player's fault.

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it was FAR greater than 20%.
The GCD for spells was 3 seconds (so 0.5s was added between abilities, allowing great single target DPS like MNK to land more abilities per GCD, you could never hold hate over a MNK if you used flash more than twice (pre RoH), unless that MNK sucked.)
(Also was 3.5s in beta)
The enmity modifier to AoEs was only x2 in 2.0, and was raised to x3, then x5, and currently PLD and DRK I believe are x6 (Might be wrong on the x6)
Unless your whole team was using AoEs, flash was a guaranteed way to lose all threat.
The ONLY reason you ever used flash, was because 1 flash was enough to hold hate over being cured, due to cure having almost no threat generation. (except regen for soem reason having the current threat generation of today) You landed a 2nd Flash, in case people spread DoTs, or the healer DPSed.


Side note, gear syncing down is higher in item level than the gear u get from dungeons.
As a Lv15 GLA in Sastasha (new character), higher geared MNKs easily raced me in threat with the Aetherial iLv16 sword that comes from there.
With the iLv15 sword from the quest, a good MNK would easily pull ahead in threat on a boss fight half way into it.

I received an NQ sword from the main story somewhere around Lv20-22, and when I synced down, my threat was MUCH higher, and the same MNKs werent even close to me in threat anymore.

So it's possible to be decently geared, and still not be "geared enough".

Also, Before the modifier to AoE threat, I could ALWAYS, 100% of the time, generate more threat than a pre-RoH GLA. (And any WAR who didnt maintain maim at the end of a fight, to carry over into the start of the next)
I'm not really sure if I could do it now, as the only people I've tested it on, were random people in duty finder (Still held hate over them). But I havnt requested any skilled players to sync down and try their luck.

Having recently farmed a few of the beginning dungeons?

Actually yeah, I can agree. Enmity is kinda scarce. Keep in mind, I know what I'm doing on all three tanks, but the last few times I've tanked pre-30 dungeons, it's felt like a struggle to keep my enmity lead (especially with an ACN/SCH/SMN or BLM that knows what they're doing). I think there should be some challenge there, and I can't remember if it was this way in 2.x or not, but I don't feel like I should be having to spam Flash/Unleash/Overpower half a dozen times to get a stable enmity lead. Asking people to wait for three sunders isn't going to work here. I don't think it should be a walk in the park, but I do feel like it's likely very unforgiving, especially to new tanks.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I don't feel like I should be having to spam Flash/Unleash/Overpower half a dozen times to get a stable enmity lead.

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I don't feel like I should have to use defiance in my level 60 opener but hey we all make sacrifices.
Spamming your enmity aoe is simply your low level rotation.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I don't feel like I should have to use defiance in my level 60 opener but hey we all make sacrifices.
Spamming your enmity aoe is simply your low level rotation.

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My only problem with this sentiment is that I was having to do this as a geared player in level sync, which means full blue quality gear. Even this level of spamming didn't quite feel adequate. For people in leveling whites plus dungeon drops and/or vendor stuff? They're gonna struggle.

I also feel like that's not a good way to think about it, as it seems like kind of a naturalistic fallacy. Yes, that's how it is now, but is that really how it should be? Shouldn't low-level dungeons teach you baseline skills for how to approach content at higher levels, rather than spamming a win button and praying to RNGesus that no one crits?

Low level tanking all comes down to gear and spamming the AoE threat skill.

I've assisted tanks who have had problems at low level and the biggest issues I see are:
* bad gear / wrong gear. The most common problem. Everything from gear intended for level 5 characters to caster gear on a paladin, etc
* not spamming AoE threat enough. Usually focusing too much on combos, but sometimes just having large amounts of downtime between skill activation.

When you get down to core combat mechanics, early level tanks need to spam 1 skill a few times and keep their gear up to date. And while this can be easier said than done by someone completely new to mmo, I'd have a tough time saying these requirements are too high. Even if they fail at this, the mechanical penalty is almost nothing. As a result, the new tanks are able to play in an environment without any mechanical pressure, which is a decent learning environment.

The problem I see with adding tank stance early, is that the issues are likely to be shifted to higher level dungeons where tank contribution (or lack thereof) has a bigger impact. For example, if a player hasnt updated their gear for sastasha and does just fine due to tank stance, i cant say i really expect that they will update their gear for copperbell, tam-tara, etc.

TLDR:
Does tank stance really fix the issue? or does it just move it to haukke manor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by winsock

For example, if a player hasnt updated their gear for sastasha and does just fine due to tank stance, i cant say i really expect that they will update their gear for copperbell, tam-tara, etc.

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Honestly as a tank, with a tank stance, 2 AoEs, and never touching my threat combo at all.. heck sometimes i can auto attack, and i have perfect threat. (mainly as WAR, as I tend to sprint more often than I should, to keep my wrath stacks up, I'm an overly defensive tank, rather than offensive)

As for the gear example, unless they dont do dungeons, gear is going to drop to them eventually, so its kinda hard to "not gear up" unless they are starting fresh, like Lv15, or as DRK at Lv30.