It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs.

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It’s also all but a given that the expansion will include at least two new jobs, probably three, and another level cap increase while we head over to Ala Mhigo.

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Now this is a fun line. Back with HW, they did hint that they might not be able to do 3 new jobs in one go again...

So... if 4.0 only has 2 new jobs, which role do you think is getting left out in the cold?

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While DRK has brought people into tanking, we're still short on them. In areas of the game, desperately short. So I think a new tank is certain.

That leaves us with... DPS or healer. DPS are the most numerous and biggest chunk of SE's audience, while long healer queues at 60 suggest that, although still in demand for leveling, there's an excess of healers at the top end. Hmm. Well, let's hope they go with three...

Hopefully healer. AST was a disaster that i would rather not have to see again.
Personally they should just focus on the current classes than add new ones, i even rather have more midcore content than 3 new classes that will play exactly like the ones we already have in the game except with a extra gimmick.

I saw a lot of people going all hot and bothered that we might be getting more tank in 4.0 ("Oh no, my favorite Job *cough*WAR*cough* might be getting shafted" "I want my favorite Job to be DPS! I will drop the game otherwise!) so I am expecting a lot of people to say Tank.

In my opinion, it's going to be healer that's getting left out. They already had hard enough time trying to balance AST, which in the end, ended up being a discount WHM anyway.

im gonna say 2 dps, and if not 2 dps/hybrid. We do need more tanks in the community but i dont think the jobs are the problem entirely, the trinity needs to loosen up a little, but thats my opinion. Also i personally would wait another year if they can make a unique healer and unique tank and bite the bullet for dps. Dont get me wrong what they need to do is focus on gameplay for all the roles with this expansion, not spit out two half of one and half of the other, and one might as well be the same but its sorta different. Glad to see my all time favorite get added, sad to see they tried to make it a half warrior half paladin, sorta. with spooky sound effects and some weird mana drain issue. Further on what i said, ninja came out when we needed a new tank or healer most, busted queues but when i think about it, ninja was done so good, i want to see more jobs done like this, with thought involved and not failing the tradition of the job in all of final fantasy history. They couldve kept bard unique and made mch the ranged full on dps that some brds wanted, they could of come up with a new type of healer that didnt have to shield OR regen and pick one or the other before combat, they couldve done something new, like a bubble/reflect/time mage as a healer. They didnt. Personally I think theyre smart enough to realize this, and will probably play it safe. for the next expansion. I really deeply feel like not getting 1 of each role is kind of a disservice, but id rather wait if they just cant do it at this time

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Hopefully healer. AST was a disaster that i would rather not have to see again.
Personally they should just focus on the current classes than add new ones, i even rather have more midcore content than 3 new classes that will play exactly like the ones we already have in the game except with a extra gimmick.

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While I also don't want another AST aka WHM reskin ... I don't want to entirely close the door on new ideas, either.

The same source you quote says probably 3. They'll be aiming for 3 because if you don't add one of each role df gets bad. They saw what happened when ninja was introduced.

They're just saying "at least 2" in case design-wise they can't get 3 working and ready in time.

If they do only add 2 new classes, I'm banking on a Tank and DPS.
While I would like a new healer (was so disappointed in AST) I just can't really see it going over well when they can't make something unique that is also effective.

They could make a HoT healer but that is incredibly difficult to balance as spike damage is a huge thing in this game and unless the regens have a burst initial heal, it's downright impossible for them to compete but that would just make them into discount WHMs again.

Damage healers might work, whereas they heal by doing damage but that seems like it might also be a challenge to balance considering that they would still need to be able to heal should they be unable to deal damage for whatever reason.

Blood Mage healers also would be a nightmare to balance as having the healer sacrifice their own health to heal others, especially in situations where they'll be taking damage as well, is just asking for trouble.

a tp healer wouldnt be godawful, be it damage/melee based, or something along the lines of a chemist really imo. It wouldnt be a caster though, and thats treading in new territory already. Again though, they "could". Im still looking at AST when i say "could"...

If they dare try to add yet another healer, it has to give SCH a run for it's money in some way (if they don't straight-up nerf SCH) or we're just back to SCH + one of the 3 remaining healers for "optimal" raiding stigma jazz.

I don't think they're capable nor want to bother balancing such a thing.

They should add a Tank and a Healer.
No DPS since we have enough of those already...

The queue takes too long due to the lack of Healers and Tanks

AST is a great class in my opinion

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Back with HW, they did hint that they might not be able to do 3 new jobs in one go again...

So... if 4.0 only has 2 new jobs, which role do you think is getting left out in the cold?

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People forget always there was a ninja just before...so yeah, they were working on 4 jobs at the same time, more or less.
Now for me, there are two options : 1 DPS, 1 Tank and 1 Healer for 4.0, or 2 jobs for 4.0 + 1 job for 4.2

If they release only two jobs, I can expect one or several rework for our actual jobs.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

If they dare try to add yet another healer, it has to give SCH a run for it's money in some way (if they don't straight-up nerf SCH) or we're just back to SCH + one of the 3 remaining healers for "optimal" raiding stigma jazz.

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My question to this is, would people actually accept some sort of SCH nerf to make them not required and add flexibility to healer combos (not to mention the devs giving themselves some breathing room design-wise)? I mean, the current design paradigm is barrier healer + direct heals healer. This is why AST was created to ape SCH and WHM instead of doing its own thing. You and I know this, but would people in general be able to work and accept it?

The game is ripe for another barrier healer to directly compete with SCH. This allows AST to find its niche as a HPS healer that has barriers + Mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

My question to this is, would people actually accept some sort of SCH nerf to make them not required and add flexibility to healer combos (not to mention the devs giving themselves some breathing room design-wise)? I mean, the current design paradigm is barrier healer + direct heals healer. This is why AST was created to ape SCH and WHM instead of doing its own thing. You and I know this, but would people in general be able to work and accept it?

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LV 62 skill : Wanderer's Bookworm - Cannot be used in conjunction with Fairies.
LV 64~70 skills : Can only be used while in Wanderer's Bookworm stance.

I will laugh my ass off if this happens.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

a tp healer wouldnt be godawful, be it damage/melee based, or something along the lines of a chemist really imo. It wouldnt be a caster though, and thats treading in new territory already. Again though, they "could". Im still looking at AST when i say "could"...

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Yeah, a chemist/item user was another thing that came out in interviews as something they considered for HW. So I think it's a decent probability. (OTOH, last anniversary events teased red and blue mage... wonder if one could end up a healer?)

But, as with what you and others say... the real challenge, whatever the lore flavorings might be, would be to make sure it's not essentially a WHM reskin again in its heal mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

LV 62 skill : Wanderer's Bookworm - Cannot be used in conjunction with Fairies.
LV 64~70 skills : Can only be used while in Wanderer's Bookworm stance.

I will laugh my ass off if this happens.

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The fairy is really only part of the reason, and pretty well got nerfed into the ground with Heavensward. That and the lustrate changes do mean SCHs can't spend nearly as much time in clerics, at least not so easily.

For another healer to be interchangeable... it would need to have strong barrier options as well as a myriad of mitigation options. Technically WHM and AST both have barriers and mitigation, just nothing on the level/variety of what SCH can do. (And even with the fairy nerfs, being able to essentially have a second GCD will always be powerful.)

If its only 2 then either the DPS of the Tank will be Samurai. I am all for seeing what they can do, lest just hope they payed attention to what they did with the Heavensward jobs because, frankly, they are a mess.

Its like they ignored the origins of the jobs and the what the job did in combat for something new that ended up being unattractive for many of us.

I think some of AST's initial difficulties came from it trying to fulfill the same two niches as WHM and SCH. There are far more creative opportunities than just HoTs and Shields, and I want to see FF XIV experiment with more diversity for healers.

I really want to see Dancer get introduced as a healing job. The way I see it, they could rely on an aggressive buff/debuff play style. Their core buffs heal apply bonus heals whenever the Dancer heals the target or uses other buffs on them, and a debuff that rewards the target's attackers with healing. The Dancer's aggressive side could be all about keeping debuffs on the target to provide more constant raw damage reduction at the cost of healing power. They could still have their emergency healing abilities, but they try and keep the numbers down across the board rather than blasting allies with healing, or shielding them to avoid that additional damage.

A little more information to throw into the discussion. It seems SE doesn't like that SCH is essentially mandatory (and WAR for that matter), so they'll be looking to address that in 4.0. ...but they'll be rebalancing jobs holistically so we may see changes across the board.

It will be interesting to see the full translation.

But anyways, I do think we can discuss new ideas without too much fear about "how will it fit in the current meta?", because it sounds like the current meta will not survive the next expac.

The source in the first post is basically like somebody's blog. We can make safe bets on the number of jobs or location of the expansion areas, but real info is under wraps until FanFest with regards to things that would be major announcements.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

A little more information to throw into the discussion.

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I think there's a major imbalance in tanks, with Warrior's high dps not balanced out by negatives because it also has good mitigation, self-healing, support. I would like to see Dark Knight catch up a little in single target dps and self sustaining ability, and it seems like Paladin could be given more AOE dps without causing any mixed identity issues between the jobs.
Nocturnal sect for Astrologian could be made stronger and the cards made stronger in some ways to compensate for RNG on drawing them.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

The source in the first post is basically like somebody's blog. We can make safe bets on the number of jobs or location of the expansion areas, but real info is under wraps until FanFest with regards to things that would be major announcements.

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Yeah, it's mostly just to have something to discuss. I mean... we have enough healer DPS threads, I think.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I think there's a major imbalance in tanks, with Warrior's high dps not balanced out by negatives because it also has good mitigation, self-healing, support. I would like to see Dark Knight catch up a little in single target dps ...

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the difference isn't as high as ppl claim to be. as MT drk probably pulls ahead anyway. war's biggest boost in this case is the ability to put up the slashing debuff by themself. all of it's attacks are on the gcd, it's kinda slow this way. also it's biggest mitigation tool is also on the gcd and requires wrath stacks. that sometimes means you have to hold back to survive.

on topic. as I said in another thread I'm expecting 2 DPS. they could add 10 tank jobs, but it won't change the fact that ppl don't play tanks...

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

the difference isn't as high as ppl claim to be. as MT drk probably pulls ahead anyway. war's biggest boost in this case is the ability to put up the slashing debuff by themself. all of it's attacks are on the gcd, it's kinda slow this way. also it's biggest mitigation tool is also on the gcd and requires wrath stacks. that sometimes means you have to hold back to survive.

on topic. as I said in another thread I'm expecting 2 DPS. they could add 10 tank jobs, but it won't change the fact that ppl don't play tanks...

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People don't play tanks that suck. And we only have 2 that don't as far as most roulettes go. #AddDamageToFlash

It could be interesting to see a DPS healer that uses Drain type spells that heal people in the party for a portion of how much damage they do. Then perhaps some type of spell that lets you lower your HP to increase the maximum HP of a target temporarily.

I mean there's plenty of design space for additional healers. The problem with Ast is they tried to make it a white mage and a scholar that switches with stances, but couldn't make it as good as either since Regen and Stone III would be broken on Sch while Shields and Bane would be broken on Whm so it ended up without the best of either.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

It could be interesting to see a DPS healer that uses Drain type spells that heal people in the party for a portion of how much damage they do. Then perhaps some type of spell that lets you lower your HP to increase the maximum HP of a target temporarily.

I mean there's plenty of design space for additional healers. The problem with Ast is they tried to make it a white mage and a scholar that switches with stances, but couldn't make it as good as either since Regen and Stone III would be broken on Sch while Shields and Bane would be broken on Whm so it ended up without the best of either.

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So you mean a healer that wouldn't be able to do anything unless people are fighting stuff? And diurnal AST ended up pretty fine compared to WHM.

Concerning eventual nerf for Scholar, what I think is we don't look at the real problem.
Scholar was already nerf and didn't get much useful skills for this extension (lvl58 and lvl60 are very very situational).

The real problem is White Mage with the skills he got from Heavensward can solo content most of the time, thanks to Asylum, Assize and Tetra (which cost no mana).
Without that, he would have problem of mana, what he had for Realm Reborn. That's why, in Realm Reborn Scholar had to help White Mage.
I must admit fairy help a lot, but for me, they give too much powerful tools to the White Mage and even Astromancien (who is even better for keep is mana).

In the end, Scholar is fine, Astro need a rework anyway for his cards and stances, and White Mage need a nerf.

They'll do the same thing to WAR and SCH that they did to NIN in HW, tone down the new skills so that at the end of it all, it's where they think it should be.

And neither SCH nor WAR are "fine" now. It shows not just in how everyone wants one of those for raid, but those are the 2 jobs you see soloing content other jobs wouldn't have a chance at.

In the Famicom interview yoshida stated the opposite
Sch and war might be a bit ahead
And they will push all the other at those 2 level

For the 4.0 of course nothing before

The only meeeh skill from HW sch is the 60 one...
All the other are awesome

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Originally Posted by Nekotee

In the Famicom interview yoshida stated the opposite
Sch and war might be a bit ahead
And they will push all the other at those 2 level
For the 4.0 of course nothing before

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So White Mage will have a better MP management and will do more damage than Scholar ?
It's not a good idea at all.
Instead, if they nerf MP management for the White Mage, Scholar would have to heal more than now.
But i think he should have a skill for reduction damages, at least, maybe allow Stoneskin II in combat with a 60 sec CD, something like that.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

A little more information to throw into the discussion.
But anyways, I do think we can discuss new ideas without too much fear about "how will it fit in the current meta?", because it sounds like the current meta will not survive the next expac.

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"Yoshida wonders why so many people are obsessed with their "own DPS" rather than the "Total DPS" of the party and he said the development team balances DPS based on the averaged out DPS of the whole party (Probably talking about Dragoon's BL and Ninja's TA)"

Hasnt the community been asking for a support/debuffer/buffer role for like forever?
as far as war and sch, kind of funny how dps-intended classes end up being incomparable in other roles? i have to admit it was pretty amazing how a dps gets 5 job skills and is still a very good healer job(by 50)

Edit: I see nothing wrong with war and sch being good, what id like them to do is look at what makes them good and bring the other jobs up in a way that shines, we dont need another barrier healer, but maybe one that does a different type of healing that makes it favorable: Drainstrikes from the drg 60 quest as a spell castable on tank, then bubble/reverse there are some nasty healing spells from ff12 i just absolutely love - stuff like this

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

So you mean a healer that wouldn't be able to do anything unless people are fighting stuff?

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-.-

...it's a two sentence example

I thought it would be redundant and unnecessary to say, "Oh and it also has a Cure/Physic/Benefic type spell like every other healer before it"...

and even if it didn't would a healer really not have any other healer to cross class from?

and even if that weren't the case is there absolutely no way to design it to work?

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Originally Posted by Supersun

-.-

...it's a two sentence example

I thought it would be redundant and unnecessary to say, "Oh and it also has a Cure/Physic/Benefic type spell like every other healer before it"...

and even if it didn't would a healer really not have any other healer to cross class from?

and even if that weren't the case is there absolutely no way to design it to work?

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I believe it could work

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Hasnt the community been asking for a support/debuffer/buffer role for like forever?

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Well.. With AST, we got one. Didn't work out so well at release. Turns out jobs still need to be able to perform their designated role as well as anyone else.

I think AST and BRD are the closest we're likely to get.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Edit: I see nothing wrong with war and sch being good

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In the full translation it's even clearer: They're not planning to "snipe" WAR and SCH (Translator's wording), but basically rebalance every job. So yes, no need for any panic along the lines of "oh no war and sch on the chopping block!", they aren't.

I would absolutelly love another healer...(maybe like the necromancer from the necromancer healer thread, that would be awesome, with some tweaks here and there of course)
BUT, knowing how SE dealt with the new jobs i'm pretty scared of it...
i would love another NEW and FRESH healer and not a WHM/SCH Wannabe.
SE does have the creativity to do so but, the balancing team?.....
ugh....

No idea where all the AST hate is coming from..AST is the better WHM actually :rolleyes:
So no, not a "discount WHM" at all.

But yeah, just for balance purposes, I also think if there only would be 2 new classes it would be tank and DPS.
Because DPS is a given at this point, and to balance it out a tank, especially since we still have a crazy lack of tanks but not so much a lack of healers.

Which is sad to me, because I'd prefer leveling another healer :/

Lets see Red mage (class), and Blue mage (job) are a possible combination for a healer and debuffer that would use auto-life instead of a resurrection spell, and be more DPS focused. well, they could just rename it Purple mage. And, the chemist Job from FFT is totally the candidate for a TP healer. Samurai is a job that could easily branch into both tank and DPS classes with slower but more powerful skills as a tank and a rally mechanic. I would really like a dancer class as either a healer or a DPS class, but mostly as a DPS. Oh, and Beast master and Puppet master should probably be tank classes. ...actually, Beast master is a no and pretty much PETA outrage bait. We seriously need more varieties of tanks and healers, because DPS are just way to expendable and it's totally the polar opposite with tanks and healers, which can make them a little egotistical sometimes.

BTW, wasn't it stated that 4.0 would be separate from the main story quest. They did say that they are working on a swimming mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

While DRK has brought people into tanking, we're still short on them. In areas of the game, desperately short. So I think a new tank is certain.
(Healers) although still in demand for leveling, there's an excess of healers at the top end. Hmm. Well, let's hope they go with three...

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I've always been a tank at heart. But DRK was easily the most fun, and it alone has made me resub many times, jut to taste its playstyle again.

But the bottom line is. It is NEVER worth joining a leveling party as a tank. (in comparisons to other methods of exp gain per hour, much less the treatment)
The "role in need" reward is nothing in comparison to the 98% of groups, who are complete and utter A****** to tanks.
I'll do Lv60 content, that's above entry level, as ppl are actually competent, and not jerks most of the time.

So I instead, choose to play the next "defensive" role I can pick, and that is healer. (Along with so many other people I know who give up tanking.)

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have another tank, but I still would NEVER join leveling groups as the new tank.
The problem isnt the lack of tank jobs, but people's treatment of them, and lack of consideration towards others, as they mindlessly watch netflix, and blame their mistakes on others.


-{ HoT Healer }-

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

They could make a HoT healer but that is incredibly difficult to balance as spike damage is a huge thing in this game and unless the regens have a burst initial heal, it's downright impossible for them to compete but that would just make them into discount WHMs again.

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To handle "burst phases/tank busters" you have a Cure2 equivalent, that heals more if they have the HotS up, takes 3.5 to cast, and takes a butt load of MP.
You need to start casting BEFORE the damage goes through, since it takes so long to cast. If you're timing is off, you need to move/cancel the casting, so as not to waste the huge MP cost.
You can also stack more than 1 HoT, but the other HoTs eat MP, so u need to balance how often you place the additional HoTs up. (similar to spamming medica2 or not)

Balancing these things is always easy. Lets worry more on what ideas are unique, rather than "it cant be balanced"

-{ damage/absorb Healer }-

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

So you mean a healer that wouldn't be able to do anything unless people are fighting stuff? And diurnal AST ended up pretty fine compared to WHM.

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Are you suggesting there is no way to make it possible to work? Because I can think fo plenty of ways to make it work, and Ive never actually given the idea the time of day till just now.
Unique way to heal. Summon a Test Dummy that doesnt attack back for a short period of time, u can drop it when bosses go immune, and DPS will love you, as they can keep their rotations up in the mean time. (But they lose TP, and need to switch off the dummy, to beat the DPS checks)

And it doesnt even have to be THAT unique of a fix, we could use more simplistic ideas.

-{ HP resource healer }-

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Blood Mage healers also would be a nightmare to balance as having the healer sacrifice their own health to heal others, especially in situations where they'll be taking damage as well, is just asking for trouble.

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DEV team said they already dont like the idea of sacrificing HP for DRK, THM, or which ever DPS did so in the past. (1.0)
But its easily addable, as it doesnt need to be your only source of healing. Simply put, use MP for weaker heals during AoE phases, and or HP when MP is low, which ever playstyle you go with. (THM healer in 1.0 had no issues healing with their HP either.)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

No idea where all the AST hate is coming from..AST is the better WHM actually :rolleyes:

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You answered your own question.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

No idea where all the AST hate is coming from..AST is the better WHM actually :rolleyes:
So no, not a "discount WHM" at all.

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At its core, AST is a (very pretty) WHM reskin. One that started out considerably weaker and ended up a bit stronger than its progenitor. WHMs won't get excluded from raids for as long as that initial perception lingers, and as long as they're 'close enough'... but I hope the problem with SE's design philosophy when it came to AST is rather self evident.

It's also why people fear that a new healer would lead to a SCH + (WHM/AST/new job) meta. Hopefully their rebalancing plans will put an end to that, but only time will tell.

What I think the new healer class(if there's one) in 4.0 will be:
A new mitigation healer to compete with SCH.
Instead of barriers, provides damage reduction buffs to players.

SCH changes I hope will happen:
DT + Crit adlo combo needs to be removed, place a hard cap on DT-ed shield HP.
Why on Earth does a Scholar GAINS MP when he spends more time DPSing?! (by virtue of Energy Drains).
Please provide a new DPS skill that uses Aetherflow stacks AND does not provide MP refresh.

New AST mechanic I would love to see:
Cleric Stance for Cards:
i) Able to use cards on enemies now.
ii) Example:
a) Bole on enemy= increase damage taken.
b) Balance on enemy= reduces enemy damage.
c) MP/TP card on enemy = silence/pacify enemy.

WHM :
For the love of god can WHMs get Super Virus already?
10 Min CD skill, allows ONE usage of Stoneskin II mid combat.

well AST has pretty much been hotfixed every major patch and some minor ones, which helped greatly, but steered it more into the whm area, At release i feel like AST came out the closest to how it was imagined, and by god, it needed some help, I originally thought that the lower potencies were there as a self balancing tool to be able to switch freely in combat to be able to shield and regen, Which I thought was what was going to make it work even if it literally was using both strengths, but weaker verions to balance both mitigation and HoT. But this was not the case even down the line so, give em whm potencies, keep the shields from stacking,have em get overwrit by adlo etc. I mean I could be wrong, but that was the impression i had when they announced it...not what we ended up with(i figured the cards would be weird or random anyway so I excluded them)