A DRG's thoughts on the Impulse Rush and Weapon throw nerfs

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This post addresses the effects of these changes in Feast contexts solely


Impulse Rush and Enliven:
I can kind of understand the crit rate % nerf to dragoon's Impulse Rush. However I strongly disapprove of SE taking away its positional nullifying trait to share it with NIN and MNK through Enliven without giving DRG anything in return. Here's what it implies to each job:

Dragoon: Basically, they split the old Impulse Rush in two abilities and nerfed its crit rate %. When DRGs will want to burst, they'll have to pop both Impulse Rush and Enliven instead of just Impulse Rush. Not the end of the world right? The real problem lies with how much NIN and MNK gain from now also being able to wave positionals.

Monk: The new Enliven is simply a straight buff to the very positional dependent monks who were already and arguably the easiest melee dps to carry with.

Ninja: Not only is the Enliven change a straight buff for them too, Enliven will greatly synergize with their abilities, giving them the biggest boon of all. Being able to wave off their positional requirements means they will never miss Trick Attack and they’ll be able to Duality-Aeolian Edge safely while vulnerability is still up for a huge combo. Pray they don’t DWAD right afterwards.

Weapon Throw:
One might think DRG has the best mobility out of the three jobs and they’d be right, provided you’re not constantly fighting and have a moment’s respite between fights. In a Feast context, where you’re constantly fighting and need your abilities on demand as much as possible, the Weapon Throw removal will affect dragoons the most.

Monks have Shoulder Tackle on a 30s cooldown and can use Fists of Wind to passively gap close. Ninjas have Overwhelm on a 40s cooldown, Shukuchi on a 60s cooldown, Hyoton (bind) and can turn off Kiss to gain their passive movement speed increase.

Dragoons have Spineshatter Dive on a 1min cooldown, Dragonfire Dive on a 2min cooldown and Elusive Jump every 3min. One minute is a long time to wait if you use SD to gap close and get pushed back, stunned, slowed, slept right after using it. If SD is down, we can fall back on DD, but that means we'll almost always hold off on its bursty 250 potency just in case we need it to gap close. Elusive Jump being on a 3min CD is nothing short of a joke as it is more often than not already on cooldown because we used it to break from a Bind or Heavy.

Conclusions:
Before 3.35, my personal score rating for each melee dps’s effectiveness in Feast's solo queue looked like this:

MNK: 50pts
DRG: 46pts
NIN: 43pts

After 3.35, it now looks like this:

MNK: 52pts (straight buff)
NIN: 49pts (straight buff and synergy)
DRG: 44pts (straight nerf)

I’m a SCH main in PVE, but I swear by DRG in pvp. It just feels right to me to weave 2 OGCDs per GCD. With all these weird PVP ability changes from SE, I think I might just drop the job and pick something else. I didn't think SE could disappoint me as much as right now.....

To be fair most jobs can weave two ogcd between skills. I wouldn't exactly say that's a specific to drg playstyle. Its probably more seen on the ranged jobs actually.. Ninja needed enliven but monk didnt

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Originally Posted by Cynric

To be fair most jobs can weave two ogcd between skills. I wouldn't exactly say that's a specific to drg playstyle. Its probably more seen on the ranged jobs actually.. Ninja needed enliven but monk didnt

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I know. I just wanted to let ppl know why I'm attached to DRG. I'd like to hear feedback on the post's contents though.

Petiteeeee I miss you. ; ^ ;

I do think that DRG burst definitely needed to be nerfed. The burst was ridiculously absurd if you actually used your abilities correctly. I'm half and half on the Weapon Throw nerf. In terms of catching up to ranged, tanks literally have nothing, DRKs have a gap closer and a heavy and that's it, add to that the fact that they're probably the weakest job in PvP atm providing little for the team. Ranged jobs literally had no counter play to melee once they pop Fetterward. It made it worse that you couldn't even escape from them with WT on top of all of their gap closers.

15 seeconds of removal for positionals, that's at max 2 abilities (Rotations?) for NIN and every ability for MNK. I think the Enliven for MNKs make them too crazy. They already have a 6 second AoE pacify, 20% AoE Healing steroid, on top of crazy splash damage and pretty decent burst. On top of that as you mentioned a 30s gap closer.

I really hoped that NIN was going to get some more buffs during this patch cause personally NIN feels the weakest out of the 3 and I have played all 3 a pretty decent amount.

Personally, after reading these patch notes I might just go to MNK over DRG now, that one buff from Enliven is probably gonna make that job completely insane, I feel like that's around a 20-30% damage increase already.

I find this stupid, it was hard enough to catch a ninja running away, now its impossible Without weapon throw.

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Originally Posted by Chaelyn

Petiteeeee I miss you. ; ^ ;

[...]

15 seeconds of removal for positionals, that's at max 2 abilities (Rotations?) for NIN and every ability for MNK. I think the Enliven for MNKs make them too crazy. They already have a 6 second AoE pacify, 20% AoE Healing steroid, on top of crazy splash damage and pretty decent burst. On top of that as you mentioned a 30s gap closer.

Personally, after reading these patch notes I might just go to MNK over DRG now, that one buff from Enliven is probably gonna make that job completely insane, I feel like that's around a 20-30% damage increase already.

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Miyuki! I miss you too ^^

My main goal in this post was to highlight the dynamic changes between the 3 melee dps and how I feel the Enliven change is such a buff to NIN and MNK that dragoon might very well now be much inferior to them in Feasts.

Potentially, it still has more burst than MNK or NIN but I still think the Enliven for MNKs was unneeded for them. :c

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Originally Posted by Chaelyn

Potentially, it still has more burst than MNK or NIN but I still think the Enliven for MNKs was unneeded for them. :c

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DRGs can still burst well Miyu.

Like I said, to have the same effect as the old Impulse rush (minus the -10% crit rate), you'll just need to pop an extra OGCD; Enliven. Therefore DRG got a direct slight nerf.

The true nerf is an indirect one and it's the fact that MNK and NIN can now wave off positionals whereas DRG was the only one who could do it before. Also, it's not like DRG's burst was leagues better than MNK's and NIN's as those two still had great bursts. Now theirs will be much higher while DRG's will decrease slightly.

Aside from Disembowel's piercing debuff and Litany, I struggle to see what DRG brings to the table that's better than MNK and NIN. Compared to the other two jobs, DRG is now lackluster.

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Originally Posted by Petite

The true nerf is an indirect one and it's the fact that MNK and NIN can now wave off positionals whereas DRG was the only one who could do it before. Also, it's not like DRG's burst was leagues better than MNK's and NIN's as those two still had great bursts. Now theirs will be much higher while DRG's will decrease slightly.

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Honestly I think I play DRG differently from everyone else. o_O I never actually thought that the positionals for DRG made a difference to me. It literally only buffed my Chaos Trust. I have never once used Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw on a player once in PvP since I started playing DRG. BotD was a buff for my Jumps and a Geirskogul proc for me. I never kept it up unless I was on the Ice crystal thingies in Shatter. o_O

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Originally Posted by Chaelyn

I have never once used Wheeling Thrust or Fang and Claw on a player once in PvP since I started playing DRG. BotD was a buff for my Jumps and a Geirskogul proc for me.

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That's a shame since Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw are pretty potent when combined with the old impulse rush (now enliven). I'm actually the opposite and would Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw to keep BotD up and would try to only Geirskogul when I was reasonably sure the move would kill or lead to a certain kill.

These changes are finally gonna force me to either stop PVP'ing or stop playing DRG in PVP even though its been pretty much the job I've been most synonymous with since I've started PVP'ing. I was fine with monk being superior to DRG before this patch (hell mnk is my main in PVE and has been since I started playing in 2.0 so I could have used that job at any point if I wanted to especially now with the constant streams of buffs it receives) as I enjoyed its playstyle, have never liked following the lambs with jumping to the latest flavor of the month in terms of jobs (i.e mnk, war, mch, brd), and liked that there were so few ppl using the job at one point relative to the other jobs. But now that the job is so much worse than monk its pretty much masochistic at this point to use it over monk. Case in point as great a DRG as link is for the primal data center its still no coincidence that not only is he the only DRG in the top 10 but he is also the melee with the lowest win rate in there as well with all the monks ahead of him (hilariously no nins in sight). Yet DRG gets hit with another nerf stick lol?

No idea what I'll use now in PVP as im loathed to use my BRD since i hate ranged (pvp wise I like to be in your face and on top of you when I kill you. not 15 yalms away attacking you where you may or may not notice me doing so), do not like the invincible feeling of being a WAR and do not find joining the faceless sea of MNKs already in the data center to be particularly appealing either.

I know this is about The Feast, but I can tell you in Shatter, Dragoon are far more powerful than Ninja and Monk from what I have seen with my Black Mage.
For me, this nerf is a good thing :)

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

I know this is about The Feast, but I can tell you in Shatter, Dragoon are far more powerful than Ninja and Monk from what I have seen with my Black Mage.
For me, this nerf is a good thing :)

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I could care less that we now get +20% instead of 30% crit rate. Its the fact they stripped the positional removal trait from Impulse Rush and made it into a separate ability that every melee dps can now use. As if DRGs didn't have enough OGCD buffs to pop during our burst rotation, now we get another one which was already part of Impulse Rush in the first place. Not only is it now a hassle to use on DRG, it buffed both MNKs and NINs. I would have been ok if only NIN had gotten this version of Enliven (because they needed a little push) and if they had let the trait remain a part of Impulse Rush, but MNKs definitively didn't need the buff.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

That's a shame since Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw are pretty potent when combined with the old impulse rush (now enliven). I'm actually the opposite and would Wheeling Thrust/Fang and Claw to keep BotD up and would try to only Geirskogul when I was reasonably sure the move would kill or lead to a certain kill.

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Maybe I just suck at DRG haha. xD I play weird. The thing about those 2 BotD abilities was just eh to me, I kinda just had my burst rotation and that was pretty much it for me.

Won't write a wall of text, will just let this here.

-DRAGOONS WERE OP. (And they still)

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Won't write a wall of text, will just let this here.

-DRAGOONS WERE OP. (And they still)

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Thank you for your most profound contribution to this thread sir. love that sig. Enjoy your enliven and seeing monk in every feast lobby if you haven't already.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Won't write a wall of text, will just let this here.

-DRAGOONS WERE OP. (And they still)

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Do you even PvP?

It's not all doom and gloom for DRG, I'm certain it's still gonna be really good in the Feast. As Petite mentionned however, setting up the DRG burst is already pretty long and compact, adding enliven to it is a bit weird. I guess it's just gonna be the first thing you do before even using heavy thrust. Anyway I have yet to try DRG again for Feast with the new changes, but I know it's absolutely pathetic and toughtless of SE to let MNK have access to the new enliven. It's like giving them a free blood for blood equivalent without the +25% dmg taken.I'm also a bit scared of what NIN is gonna be capable of if enliven does remove the positionnal for TA/SA. If it does NIN might very well become the new BRD of melees as Duality AE followed by Sneak Attack (no mistake on the skill) and Dream within a dream is an absolutely ridiculous amount of damage in like a 1 sec window.
Meanwhile SMN is still left unattended...
I would really want to know what kind of feedback the Japanese players give, that we get this kind of BS changes...

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Won't write a wall of text, will just let this here.

-DRAGOONS WERE OP. (And they still)

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Eh, you probably didn't even read the opening post given how its a wall of text so I'll forgive you for thinking DRG got a huge nerf. I feel like I've repeated myself enough already so I'll just say it one last time.

Bottom line is that DRG got slightly nerfed as Enliven has now made their burst clunkier and because Impulse Rush now gives 20% crit rate instead of 30%. No huge deal. The real nerf comes from the two other jobs getting a big boon through Enliven, making DRG now feel lackluster when compared to them.

If DRGs are OP to you, I don't even want to know what you think about MNKs now.

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Originally Posted by Petite

If DRGs are OP to you, I don't even want to know what you think about MNKs now.

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The guy is a monk and is just trolling, dont bother.

i feel completely useless as a Dragoon in pvp now.

Monks and Ninja's do it better.

i can be CC'ed so much, when i am not they can sprint away and kite me.

without thrown weapon i can't stick to my target for very long

some burst was the only thing we had. our Slow got nerfed last patch, this gets nerfed

Monk and Ninjas have wayyyyyyy better tools and abilities to outclass me in function and utility.

so much for even trying

Are you guys serious? Will you deny that there's an ultra-burst of DRG-BRD, DRG-MCH combo? There's a 50% damn chance you'll get a buffed ranged mate in your team. It's OP by itself, even more if ranged instead of casters. Giving a damn positional relinquish for 15s for a monk is not going to change the fact DRG is still OP...

Okay, will try not to write anymore or next one would surely have to be a wall text trying to resolve all this qquing (Don't forget the pegi3, come on)

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Are you guys serious? Will you deny that there's an ultra-burst of DRG-BRD, DRG-MCH combo? There's a 50% damn chance you'll get a buffed ranged mate in your team. It's OP by itself, even more if ranged instead of casters. Giving a damn positional relinquish for 15s for a monk is not going to change the fact DRG is still OP...

Okay, will try not to write anymore or next one would surely have to be a wall text trying to resolve all this qquing (Don't forget the pegi3, come on)

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Sheesh...

The way you talk about it makes it seem like a drg+ranged on the same team is equivalent of an atom bomb. DRG's utility consists of Litany, Disembowel and that's pretty much it. Even then, as you said, it depends on if you get a BRD or MCH on your team.

DRG has high burst, sure, but what comes after? It really doesn't have nearly the consistent damage that MNK or NIN offers even before the Enliven buff was given to MNKs. DRGs are also the squishiest out of the 3 melee jobs. There's high burst in those 2 combos yes, but it doesn't mean it guarentees you a kill. Even so, say you get a kill, alright what happens? Their burst is out and that was literally all of their damage.

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Originally Posted by l---------------l

Are you guys serious? Will you deny that there's an ultra-burst of DRG-BRD, DRG-MCH combo? [...] DRG is still OP...

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Yea about that again. DRG's burst got slightly nerfed, NIN/MNK's burst got buffed and still DRG has far less utility than the two others.
But God help us if a BRD/MCH gets paired with a DRG.

Melee DPS utility:

Ninja :
1. Hyoton (20s) : 12s Bind
2. Doton (20s) : AOE puddle applying Heavy to enemies stepping in
3. Trick Attack (60s) : +10% damage taken vulnerability debuff for 10 seconds
4. Shadow Fang* : -20% to target’s HP recovery via healing debuff for 20s
5. Dancing Edge : -10% to target’s slashing resistance for 20s (combos with all tanks)
6. Jugulate and Ill Wind (30s and 120s) : Two separate silencing abilities (way better than stuns to interrupt casting)
7. Detect: Reveal enemies under the effect of Hide

MNK:
1. Somersault (40s) : 50% slow for 15s (great for messing up healers)
2. Mantra (120s) : +20% to HP recovery via healing for self and nearby allies
3. Fists of Earth (stance): Damage taken reduced by 10% (great for carrying medals)
4. Axe Kick (150s) : 6s Pacification to all nearby enemies
5. Dragon Kick : -10% INT debuff for 15s
6. One Ilm Punch : Buff removal

DRG:
1. Litany (180s) : +15% crit rate to all nearby allies for 20s
2. Disembowel : -10% piercing debuff for 20s (must have a BRD/MCH on your team to combo)
3. Skewer (60s) : -40% INT debuff for 10 seconds

Wall of text I know :)

The Dancing edge healing debuff has been transfered to Shadow Fang.

idk how people call DRG OP and seem completely oblivious of how better MNK is.

All yer weapon throws are belong to me.

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Originally Posted by NoelNoel

The Dancing edge healing debuff has been transfered to Shadow Fang.

idk how people call DRG OP and seem completely oblivious of how better MNK is.

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MNK is the only Meele job without a range ability. In compares to DRG and MNK, MNK has higher skill cap, in which harder to master.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

MNK is the only Meele job without a range ability. In compares to DRG and MNK, NIN has higher skill cap, in which harder to master.

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fixed that for you. Monk harder to master lol?

http://i.imgur.com/ZD3Tasd.png
Seriously git gud drg

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

MNK is the only Meele job without a range ability. In compares to DRG and MNK, MNK has higher skill cap, in which harder to master.

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Haha! As if chucking Piercing Talons from afar was any help actually killing people. And although the difficulty to play MNK and DRG is relatively similar, MNK is much more forgiving towards the player if you make a mistake.

Having raided on all 3 melees and tried all 3 in PVP (NIN not so much) DRG is definitely the hardest to play. MNK is a lot more easier than DRG to play adequately. You literaly don't need to worry about anything for your CDs on MNK, it's just attack attack attack, whereas on DRG you need to pay attention to Blood of the Dragon to max your dmg, and depending on CC going you need to interrupt your rotation to go back to heavy thrust. MNK is very linear.
On top of that your 2 MNK offensive pvp abilities help you regain GL3 asap in case you'd lose it. Idk how to dumb down a job more than that.

Tried DRG in Feast a bit after the nerf, I really miss weapon throw...

Taking away Weapon Throw from melee DPS is stupid. It's not like we have so many tools to stop the target to begin with beside our stuns that last like 2 seconds or something. Ranged DPS can bind and heavy people for like 10 seconds.

Up to this point in time, haven't really cared that mnk was said to be stronger than drg anymore than mch was said to be better than brd pvp-wise as Im under the impression it simply matters in whose hands said job is in. As drg, numbers be damned, I got to wear heavier body armor as well as legally jump on lalas (secure- stairs where youre on the second set and one is coming up the 1st XD) so Ive just enjoyed the job for its own particular style. And while the Impulse Rush/Enliven thing is....annoying...at best, havent found it too bad to deal with. Whats finally gotten to me is the Weapon Toss removal. Mnk and Nin both have movement enhancement/ lower CD/ 'grappling tools" to ease the loss of this. If DF and SD are down for drg, kinda feels like youre in a dream chasing that person you can naver catch up with. Ive actually noticed, while playing brd, its gotten a LOT easier to kite drg in feast because of this. Its just got me wondering who the hell is making some of these decisions, and based off what? Instead of taking it away..why not just give it to tanks AS WELL?

Ultimately in feast, feels like you begin to fight the person much more than the job so largely, this chipping away at drgs abilities doesnt seem TOO scary. Still in some fights more than others, me am starting to feel it. I actually tried out mnk for about a week back when 8 vs 8 feast was going more and it felt pretty good, better than I expected, but I found I simply enjoy drg more. So Im just hoping they kinda lay off it for a while lol.

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Originally Posted by Vaeria

Ive actually noticed, while playing brd, its gotten a LOT easier to kite drg in feast because of this. Its just got me wondering who the hell is making some of these decisions, and based off what?

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If I had to guess I would say the reason SE removed weapon throw from the melees is the introduction of Wanderers Minuet to Bard (and the existence of Gauss Barrel for MCH) since 2.0 along with the spell interruption buff from last season. They probably noticed most BRD/MCH will full time the turret stances now with the spell interruption buff and with BLM being a turret job itself and SMN already nerfed they must have figured the melees no longer need the ability. I personally don't find BRD to be too difficult myself to keep on top of as DRG, since Blast shot has a pretty long recast and BRD's become relatively harmless if you force them to take off WM in favor of running, but MCH with that 30 sec recast 15 yalm knockback become a serious problem for DRGs.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

I know this is about The Feast, but I can tell you in Shatter, Dragoon are far more powerful than Ninja and Monk from what I have seen with my Black Mage.
For me, this nerf is a good thing :)

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The magic nerf to ice in Shatter also affected NIN. It's now more effective to throw a shuriken at the ice, and NIN is on top of the target.

I'll be honest with you guys, i was main drg in the feast in the first season, and drg were the most used melee in the Chaos DC and if you were smart enough you could 100-0 anyone (beside tank) in a few seconds. And you have to think that Impulse Rush was designated for the old drg that couldn't do his CT combo if he didn't get the right positional and now he doesn't really need it, while the mnk is heavily dependant on the positional to do dps or it's no match for drg, can't really talk about ninja because i rarely seen it in pvp and i don't really use it much so i won't even consider it. So this is a fair change for the NIN and MNK.

The only thing i hate is the Weapon Throw change which i don't really understand...

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Originally Posted by Rain_Art

I'll be honest with you guys, i was main drg in the feast in the first season, and drg were the most used melee in the Chaos DC and if you were smart enough you could 100-0 anyone (beside tank) in a few seconds. And you have to think that Impulse Rush was designated for the old drg that couldn't do his CT combo if he didn't get the right positional and now he doesn't really need it, while the mnk is heavily dependant on the positional to do dps or it's no match for drg, can't really talk about ninja because i rarely seen it in pvp and i don't really use it much so i won't even consider it. So this is a fair change for the NIN and MNK.

The only thing i hate is the Weapon Throw change which i don't really understand...

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SE probably believed that Fetter Ward + Weapon Throw is too much for meeles from their perspectives, especially when Ninja obtained Fetter Ward too.

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Originally Posted by Rain_Art

I'll be honest with you guys, i was main drg in the feast in the first season, and drg were the most used melee in the Chaos DC and if you were smart enough you could 100-0 anyone (beside tank) in a few seconds.

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This just means your data center is vastly different from the NA data centers and you have no decent monks in it (if you are legitimately gonna claim mnk is no match for drg). The best player in the NA is a monk on Aether and both Aether and Primal last season had tons of monks up and down the leaderboards. It was the most common melee by far in Primal last season precisely because of the superior tools the job brought to the table over drg and nin. Yeah DRG has the superior burst but it's on a longer cool down over monk who can burst more frequently, is not as obvious as drg, and now was helped out with enliven buff. DRG only having that burst going for them isn't that impressive when BRD and MCH exist still.

In Feast I guess it matters more than in frontline (obviously). If monk really was the best melee pvp job, removing weapon throw certainly is a nerf. I can already recall many situations -as monk- in both feast and frontline where lack of weaponthrow made target escape.

In frontline I can't see how this is a magnificent nerf to drg. There are too many variables too consider for me from the top of my head.