Why don't Tanks have attacks that can cleave multiple enemies?

With some attack animations you'd think attacks would hit an enemy and all those in the arc of your weapon at reduced potencies per enemy hit.

There are quite a few enemies and bosses that can cleave the party but as opposed to player controlled stuff it is practically nonexistent outside of concrete AoE only attack skills like Flash/Unleash/Overpower.

Attacks like Storm's Eye, Spinning Slash, Savage Blade should definitely hit multiple enemies based on the animation alone.

Many times I've noticed complaints about PLD's lack of AoE options, wouldn't the concept of attacks with a reduced splash damage effect help them out in that case?

Just something I've thought about.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

With some attack animations you'd think attacks would hit an enemy and all those in the arc of your weapon at reduced potencies per enemy hit.

There are quite a few enemies and bosses that can cleave the party but as opposed to player controlled stuff it is practically nonexistent outside of concrete AoE only attack skills like Flash/Unleash/Overpower.

Attacks like Storm's Eye, Spinning Slash, Savage Blade should definitely hit multiple enemies based on the animation alone.

Many times I've noticed complaints about PLD's lack of AoE options, wouldn't the concept of attacks with a reduced splash damage effect help them out in that case?

Just something I've thought about.

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Maybe with the new xpac RDM (or w/e new tank class) could feature this ability. Something with a short duration, but almost enough to make it worthwhile.

Would be nice, but I doubt it. Maybe for the next tank to come around at whatever point they implement it, but like drk with a much asked for gap closer, it wiould be their "thing". Things like an aoe provoke, etc they will probably just give to a new tank and keep tanking....the way it is. "Not a DPS sorry" seems to be the acceptable stance that's being taken of the role.

For the Warrior to have physical AoE exclusively, considering the game life, is something I think is a bit overboard. I would like to see Steel Cyclone buff'd though now that WAR has Decimate. Some added tanking bonus. 1.0 Cyclone stunned enemies who were critical'd with it, and 100% of the damage delivered from that crit was absorbed as HP. Abyssal Drain for w/e reasons doesn't feel as satisfying as that old Cyclone did, I suppose it's due to the stun.

Hopefully PLD will get their fair reward, and if it isn't simple AoE attacks added to their kit, maybe something new like a stance or CD buff, similar to what the OP suggests, that turns some of the combo-Weapon Skills into AOEs. cone Savage Blade, cone Rage of Halone, radius Royal Authority, rectangle Goring. I'd enjoy that, won't happen though ; ;. Expect another dull 100 potency GCD AOE meant to be spammed ; ;

DRK's design of magical only AOE I think is a good definition for them. But if they did have a physical AOE, Spinning Slash would be a cool candidate - however it would work. Spinning Slash was a key component for DRK in early FFXI (they couldn't chain Light until learning Spinning Slash, which wasn't until lvl 66. During progression DRK 'BiS' never even touched Great Swords until 66 when that Weapon Skill was unlocked). So I like the idea of buffing XIV's Spinning Slash, in any way - aoe or something else, just for that nostalgia.

*inb4 the FFXI QQ, DRK would use Greatsword occasionally at low levels, like 30 an below,

For PLDs they could bring back War Drum to give them an AoE when you block you send shockwaves in a cone in front of you for X Potency would work well with Bulwark and Sheltron or even adding a burning DoT on flash (20 potency stacks 3 times for 60 potency).

For Drks they have amazing AoE (Unleash, Abyssal Drain, Dark Passenger, Salted Earth) but as stated they don't have a physical one which would be nice like a line attack (much like Praetorium Gaius X shaped slash) would be interesting.

Wars could just add a cleave in Butchers Block to keep it's synergy going or when using Steel Cyclone/Decimate it leaves a tornado eventually sucking things in and doing wind damage. I don't really know how to "improve" wars when their toolkit is the best in the game so any ideas would be great.

In DC universe online, things like Gap closers, cleaves and single target attacks designed to build higher enmity than normal ( similar to provoke I guess?) became standard for all tanks. This game should be that way too.

Maybe next expansion they'll add in cleaves. Probably change the name of warriors fell cleave into "Fell strike" since I don't think its a multi target attack at the moment. Or maybe "fail cleave" since they failed to cleave and instead put all the force onto a single enemy.

Fell Cleave in Defiance for frontal AoE threat?


AWWW YISS!

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Originally Posted by Ragology

In DC universe online, things like Gap closers, cleaves and single target attacks designed to build higher enmity than normal ( similar to provoke I guess?) became standard for all tanks. This game should be that way too.

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This is very true, it is basically the standard in MMO's however, I don't necessarily think these are necessary in the current tank design, hear me out.

Gap closers- There aren't really any situations that I can think of offhand where the added mobility is really that useful, not to say it isn't useful. But I don't really see much point with current encounter design. In my experience, I'm better off using an unmend/tomahawk/shield lob on a large add and when I use Plunge towards a group of little adds, usually most of them run away from me and I have to chase them down anyway. I'd rather run to the adds and aoe them to pick them up on the spot or if they're moving immediately I'd rather sit next to the healer as that's usually who they make a beeline for.

Cleaves- Dark Knight doesn't need more AoE in my opinion, it's aoe is good as is. Warrior has Overpower which is essentially a "cleave" style attack, i.e. a frontal cone that builds threat and hits multiple targets. Paladin on the other hand, they could definitely use another AoE damage move, I'm all for giving Pld a cleave style attack.

Single Target threat attack- The threat combos basically cover this, but some sort of on demand oGCD single target, low damage, and high threat move isn't a bad idea. It could be useful as well.

Maybe give WAR a wide cone cleave or two that does much less damage to non targeted enemies. PLD, I think just needs one, if any, but I would prefer lower TP costs (because that is why you have a shield, besides protection) and more skills focused on dealing with enmity generation or just passing off their aggro in sword oath to another character or pet. DRK... I would really like it to be less frantic with, skills to handle unexpected adds like a wide area ability that shifts all emnity toward itself and interrupt attacks, and a few skills that would change when certain conditions are met (like deactivating Darkside would unleash Darkness and restore the players MP at the cost of their HP while damaging and staggering enemies).

Edit: It would also be great if PLDs to have a wide area cover, and for sheltron to be able to completely block most attack's damages against other players within a cone.

Same reason Vorpal Thrust don't cleave or push aside enemies, Disembowel doesn't actually have a parry/counterattack component, and Full Thrust doesn't launch even light enemies into the air—animations are mostly irrelevant to their effects.

Well I know most of you hate CC, but that is probably why.

You can't have random single target abilities in the rotation that do AoE damage. It's a nightmare to keep creatures asleep when you have AoE in ST spells.

Can't keep things asleep in content that matters anyway since players will AoE everything for DPS efficiency or it's flatout immune making said CC completely worthless outside of PvP and dungeons in between the levels of 1-50 and 50-60. 50/60 dungeons generally giving enemies immunity to basically any real status effect.

As a BLM it's rather rare for me to pop a sleep spell...except for bad groups in Dzemael Darkhold.

Whereas for a majority of content blind effects(cue DRK/PLD/SMN/SCH) when they work aren't negated when a bum is attacked and offer more mitigation then sleep would in the long run.

Just goes to show the only viable CC in PvE is just a bunch of stuns/silences. If BLM's were given something like Breakga for petrification(which would just be an AoE stun anyway kinda like Holy but no damage) maybe we would have some nice CC utilities but then people will cry how Class A has advantage over Class B in terms of utility. Which is why you'll see NPC THM/BLM fire Breakga/Drain at you and you get stuck with a Sleep that doesn't work and....Lethargy.

Freeze doesn't even apply deep freeze. Just a sissy bind...which also in content that matters doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Well I know most of you hate CC, but that is probably why.

You can't have random single target abilities in the rotation that do AoE damage. It's a nightmare to keep creatures asleep when you have AoE in ST spells.

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It's neither impossible nor unprecedented in other MMOs to conditionally nullify or ignore AoE components only against CCed targets.

Cleaves for tanks are unnecesary. All it would serve would be increased DPS in dungeons really, which is what Flash/Unleash/Overpower are for. Tanks already hold hate well enough on packs, and do decent damage (except PLD) on the groups.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Cleaves for tanks are unnecesary. All it would serve would be increased DPS in dungeons really, which is what Flash/Unleash/Overpower are for. Tanks already hold hate well enough on packs, and do decent damage (except PLD) on the groups.

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Whether they were necessary or not was never the point though. Aesthetics and/or gameplay were. Would it be so bad, for instance, for Overpower to have situational single-target use, or be able to act as a finisher rather than a singularly spammed AoE? It's not necessary, but it might make a lot more sense in terms of animations, and feel a lot better in terms of gameplay. That's all this is.

I think Dragon's Dogma gave 2-handed warriors cleave on their attacks. I don't really see much of a problem with giving DRK and WAR cleaves on their auto attacks and letting PLD do a higher potency auto-reprisal cleave with the shield that activates upon a successful block but cannot proc more often than an auto attack. It'd be a nice way of boosting their AoE damage relative to the other tanks since Flash is underwhelming in dungeons compared to what DRK and WAR bring.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's neither impossible nor unprecedented in other MMOs to conditionally nullify or ignore AoE components only against CCed targets.

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Lots of other games do lots of other things. FFXIV has it's fair share of CC-friendly mechanics. Like only the first tick of a DoT will break CC, etc... You can't just pretend it is common or easy to develop because it is in another MMO.

I'd rather them give PLD an AoE WS to use since WAR and DRK already have one. It could be War Drum and it wouldn't even need to be proc'd off of a Shield Proc. Just make it cost 120 TP, give it 140 potency, done.

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Originally Posted by Red_Wolf

Lots of other games do lots of other things. FFXIV has it's fair share of CC-friendly mechanics. Like only the first tick of a DoT will break CC, etc... You can't just pretend it is common or easy to develop because it is in another MMO.

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But neither can you ignore that many things people take as "(code) limitations" are in fact intentional design. Skills without direct damage didn't use to break CC, period, meaning that a Monk could Touch of Death (originally 0 direct potency) a sleeped enemy between AAs, etc., etc.. That was an intentional change on SE's part. Animation times and effect delays have been reduced on numerous abilities. Different abilities trigger at different times into or different delays after animations complete.

Monk Coeurl skills now generate hits and resultant GL before the animation even finishes. We already have client-side oGCDs in the form of Mudra signs. There are numerous QoL complaints that we already have precedent solutions to.

This particular one isn't on that list, but I don't think it beyond the range of coding when you simply consider that every skill with a CC component already checks for CC (heavy not only removed by bind but also impossible to apply while a bind is active, for instance, nullifying a component based on prior/existent CC). It may already be that every skill runs that same check, in which case there is already precedent in-game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Skills without direct damage didn't use to break CC, period

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In this game? I didn't know that.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Just goes to show the only viable CC in PvE is just a bunch of stuns/silences. .

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The only viable CC is more dps! When it's dead, it's controlled.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

The only viable CC is more dps! When it's dead, it's controlled.

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And that mentality is why CC skills were relegated to PvP.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And that mentality is why CC skills were relegated to PvP.

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Which is beyond frustrating for anyone that remembers MMO's that were challenging and required DPS to be aware of their surroundings.

Almost every wipe can easily be avoided with simple CC done by either of the two DPS players. But why bother? It's easier to just spam their damage abilities and blame the tank and healer for the wipes. I hate this mentality.

You can't argue with it because they're all used to being over-geared, playing with FC-members, easy linear dungeon maps, etc... God forbid someone in the group is new, under-geared, or just struggling that day. The new way is to wipe rather than using support abilities. It's sad. People think they're good players because of DPS parses... There used to be a lot more to these games. And like you said it really shows when they try to PvP.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And that mentality is why CC skills were relegated to PvP.

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Nah. It's this way because a majority of things aren't worth the effort and pose no real threat, unless you're paired up with a new / horrible tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Nah. It's this way because a majority of things aren't worth the effort and pose no real threat, unless you're paired up with a new / horrible tank or healer.

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Ergo in the long run the only 2 roles that matter.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Ergo in the long run the only 2 roles that matter.

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Tell that to things that have a soft and hard enrage. ;X

The only tank that desperately needs a rotational cleave is PLD. WAR has a monopoly on physical AoE, and DRK has an abundance of AoE options, even if all magic damage.

Royal Authority should have been a rotational cleave; same potency for a single target, but 70% damage if multiple enemies are hit.