"Doma" should not be "Pan-Asia"

Hey folks, just a thought about lore!

Basically, I am hoping and asking that S-E doesn’t make Doma into the “pan-Asian” culture of FFXIV, a big pot to dump everything “Asian” from kotatsu tables to shinobi to giant pandas to qipaos. I think it’s a bit disrespectful to the actual real-life cultures they’re taken from; and I think it would be a failure of imagination not to find different ways to fit those cultures into Hydaelyn, and instead just dump them into Doma-pan-Asian-land.

This is more an argument about sensibility rather than clear and distinct categories, so there’s of course some wiggle room here. It’s not that borrowing is bad. Garlemald clearly takes cues from Rome; Sharlayan from Greece. Nor is it that combining cultures is bad. Ala Mhigo, as an example, seems to me to combine aspects of (1) the Byzantine Empire (the name ‘Theodoric’, for example, and the role that theology plays in the government) with (2) the Germanic tribes that entered the Roman world so influentially in the fourth and fifth centuries, and which account for so much of the Germanic tribalism that we see in the Highlanders, and (3) bits of China, like the way that the Monk job abilities and artifact armor seem to use Chinese terms and decorative motifs; the Fist of Rhalgr seems so very Shaolin to me. Ala Mhigo is even very high up in the mountains—to the point that Highlanders have developed physiologically in response to the high altitudes—and that seems very Himalayas/southwestern China to me. So again, if my instincts are reading this rightly, Ala Mhigo is a sort of blend of Byzantine-Germanic-Chinese. It’s not that blending cultures is bad.

It’s that… with as much thought as they’ve put into lore like that thus far, doesn’t it do us a disservice to lump all the “Asian” things—whether it’s delicious Japanese sushi or a fashionable Mandarin qipao—into the “Asian culture”? They already have taken “Asian” things like yukata and Ala Mhigo’s monk artifact armor and spread them to other cultures. Why lump everything “Asian” into Doma now? Just recently, they put in a panda minion, and said it came from Doma! I thought they had established that Doma was being patterned on Japan, no…? So why are Chinese pandas now “Doman”?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...psdsaafdz1.jpg

If we get this qipao as a distribution—which was originally a Chinese-only item—I think it would be a bit insulting to the Chinese culture it was meant to celebrate to squash it into the game’s “Japanese culture” Doma. They already have a culture which takes cues from China—Ala Mhigo. Why not attend to your own lore?

Have they given any information on the origin of the Chinese only or Korean only Glamours? It wasn't something I thought to ask. Doma seems to be predominately Japanese themed, though technically Ninjitsu originates from an Island of the coast of Doma. I will be curious if Samurai is confirmed if it is Doman in origin.

Mm, I agree, in that lumping all east-Asian cultural artefacts together under a single banner is an issue born of ignorance, but it's primarily a WESTERN issue, and one I'd hesitate to accuse an almost-entirely-Japanese dev team of suffering from.

On top of that, as you yourself say, combining cultures isn't necessarily a problem, especially when they're being combined into a fantasy culture anyways. At what point would you consider it a harmless blending of real-world influences into a singular fantasy culture, and at what point would it become pan-Asianism?

Xaela are Mongolian analogues, but their females have the exact same emotes as the demure Raen (Japanese analogues).

Ahem.

It's not that they're lumping all Asian things into Doma, but that they're lumping all Asian things into Othard - the continent all Au Ra are implicitly from. Doma is just a nation on that continent, hence why they're Japanese (Japan is an island nation, but it is a part of Asia...). As such everything on Othard is likely some kind of Asian analogue - a qipao is a small matter compared to the above-mentioned Xaela women having the same emotes as the Raen. Just say anything that doesn't have clear Japanese influence is from Othard and it's fine.

As for Highlanders and Ala Mhigo, aside from the MNK having some cues from Shaolin monks there's very little Chinese influence I can see. They seem to be more based on the Germanic tribes before Europe was a well-defined set of nations, though to their credit Ala Mhigo was a kingdom.

Well, what we know is Doma is japanese based. So, if we get finally to that land in a expasion, probably will be japanese-like. YOu can see te doman gear (old Law gear), which is Samurai inspired clearly.

About china, probably will be more Ala Mhigo than any other (they even have the Monks).

I'm not sure you can accuse a country of ignorance or disrespect when it involves their own culture...

They've done nothing of the sort yet, anyway. Everything in-game so far with the "orient" label attached has been Japanese in origin. The panda cub is a mechanical one brought from Doma, there is nothing that implies the creatures themselves are native to Doma. We weren't even supposed to have these outfits/ minions in game anyway before the player base whined about how badly done to they were.

Well considering Doma in ff6 is based off of their own culture ....

You're complaining about how asians are represented to asians... good luck.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

You're complaining about how asians are represented to asians... good luck.

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You are dumping an entire race together with cultures that vary widely. Not to mention there is an extreme amount of racism between the various Asian cultures so calling it out is still legit. Lumping all people of one ethnic type, who don't even see themselves as one ethnic type and if you pay attention at all there are vast differences outside of culture anyway, together into one, however, is quite racist.

Good thing that racism doesn't seem to exist in the game lore between Othard nations, as far as we know.

This is a non-issue.

((This is a pretty unrelated noted, but I would love for there to be Philippine visual cues in Othard, as a half pilipina lol. ))
ETA: Think of it guys. THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...089a9a9b84.jpg
http://media.philstar.com/images/the...t-Province.jpg
http://vigattintourism.com/assets/ar...45wPHNW6NJ.jpg
http://i1.wp.com/www.relativityonlin...hilippines.jpg

Personally not really a fan of doma and the lore. I wish they did something more original.

This is the Ghost In The Shell political correctness type crap all over again. Let me enlighten you, the Japanese people don't feel bad about anime characters being played by white people, and they don't care if asian culture gets lumped into one game, which I doubt it will. Ala Mhigo is more monk oriented like Tibet, Doma is more like mainland Japan, and from the clothing styles we've seen, Ratz A Han is like the middle east, which is technically asia. So no, they will not lump all of asia in one game. Doma and Ala Mhigo have a chance at being together, as well as the Xaela homeland, but there's still Ratz A Han which probably won't.

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

If we get this qipao as a distribution—which was originally a Chinese-only item—I think it would be a bit insulting to the Chinese culture it was meant to celebrate to squash it into the game’s “Japanese culture” Doma. They already have a culture which takes cues from China—Ala Mhigo. Why not attend to your own lore?

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If I'm reading this right, you're trying to get preemptively mad over something that will probably never happen in the way you envision it.

FFXIV is developed in Japan, by Japanese nationals, and the English localization is handled by a dude with the surname Koji-Fox. I'm pretty sure it's safe to trust them on something like this.

To elaborate on my own earlier thoughts a bit...

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Not to mention there is an extreme amount of racism between the various Asian cultures so calling it out is still legit.

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You're not entirely wrong; there's seldom much love lost between the big East Asian nations, something which frequently results in all kinds of nasty prejudice, ignorance, and outright racism towards each other. The things is, the issue being discussed here - pan-asianism - is pretty much never how that manifests. Pan-Asianism is a very specifically Western thing, born of the fetishization of "the Orient" from colonial times and general human ignorance of cultures and places not right in our back yards. As difficult as things can get between Japan, Korea, and China, they tend to be pretty good about recognizing and acknowledging artefacts born of the other cultures as such.

So this brings us back to "harmless fantasy amalgam VS careless ignorance."

I'll be honest - I fully expect Doma (or at least its region) to be the in-game representation of East Asia as a whole, rather than Japan exclusively. Othard seems to be more or less Fantasy Asia thus far, true, but Real Asia is enormous and, as has been pointed out, encompasses a hugely diverse subset of nations and cultures. Southeast Asia has of course been mentioned, but it also encompasses the middle-east, Russia, India, and many others. If Othard is indeed meant to collectively represent a fantasy version of Asia, then it wouldn't be too much a stretch to expect it to work in regions, rather than specific nations, and that's gonna result in some broad strokes and fusing.

So is that problematic? Eeeh. Given the above, and given that it's a fantasy world anyways I think we'll be fine so long as it doesn't start infusing obvious real-world East Asian politics and prejudices into the proceedings (and frankly, an amalgamated Fantasy East Asia is much less likely to be problematic than one where there are distinct expies). Honestly, I think the only reason this has come up at all is the Doman/Raen naming conventions being explicitly Japanese; I have to wonder if this post would have been made if the nation with ninja had a more fantastic/original flavour to their names. I do hope that Othard as a whole will be more distinct from real-world Asia than not, but it's impossible to make that call when we know so little about them. I'll toss the dev team the benefit of the doubt for now, given how much leg work has clearly gone into making Hydaelyn a distinct world thus far.

(And that's assuming that much traditional culture still exists there at all, considering that the whole place was colonized by Garlemald after a brutal and costly war. I'm sure it will, since Othard will need to be distinct from Garlemald proper somehow if both places are explored in-depth, but still).

Before making comments about asian appropriation, I would advise that you watch this. At first I was really upset about the Ghost In The Shell Movie thing, but then when I realized they actually encourage us to make the movie, it opened my mind. Now, I'm sure that actual asian appropriation exists. If I were to put on a yukata, and host a Japanese ceremony with no thorough research, I would be a moron. If I did it with class, and actually learned the right way of doing it, no one would probably say anything. I also wouldn't go around saying I'm Japanese when I'm not. That's downright annoying, and disrespectful. However, Japan actually seems to like it when Americans learn about their culture. I think its great, and also important to remember that MMOS, and the anime subculure are a NATIONAL thing on a global scale. It's not just about Japan. Anyway, watch it. It will probably open your eyes a little, like it did for me.:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DhoBuU1Dtc

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Before making comments about asian appropriation, I would advise that you watch this. At first I was really upset about the Ghost In The Shell Movie thing, but then when I realized they actually encourage us to make the movie, it opened my mind. Now, I'm sure that actual asian appropriation exists. If I were to put on a yukata, and host a Japanese ceremony with no thorough research, I would be a moron. If I did it with class, and actually learned the right way of doing it, no one would probably say anything. I also wouldn't go around saying I'm Japanese when I'm not. That's downright annoying, and disrespectful. However, Japan actually seems to like it when Americans learn about their culture. I think its great, and also important to remember that MMOS, and the anime subculure are a NATIONAL thing on a global scale. It's not just about Japan. Anyway, watch it. It will probably open your eyes a little, like it did for me.:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DhoBuU1Dtc

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It's a bit off topic (the GitS casting is completely unrelated on a number of levels) so spoiler tags, but...

It's true that, by and large, Japan doesn't care about the GiTS casting, but of course Japan doesn't care; Hollywood is effectively foreign cinema to them, and them caring would be like us caring who they cast as Spider-man or who Bollywood cast as Super-man, or something. They have no dog in the fight because it doesn't effect them, their film industry, or their population. No, the plight is that of the Asian-American community. Hollywood has huge issues with representation and stereotyping racial minorities into supporting roles, and here, we have a character with a Japanese name played by one of the highest-profile white actresses out there. Can ScarJo pull off the look? Sure. Does the work itself support the idea that the Major could be white? Arguably! All else equal, it's not a bad choice. But all else is demonstrably NOT equal and, at the end of the day, a good chance to throw a bone to an under-represented American demographic was ignored for possibly the laziest casting choice possible.

So while the GiTS film has the blessing of the makers and whatnot, I'm not positive that actually addresses the real issue behind the casting choice in the first place. Even if the movie is good - and that's a huge IF - and ScarJo is brilliant, a chance for an Asian-American actor to take center stage in a culturally-Asian story was passed over because it could be. THAT'S why people are upset, and I think they have every reason to be.

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Originally Posted by AutumnHarvestwind

((This is a pretty unrelated noted, but I would love for there to be Philippine visual cues in Othard, as a half pilipina lol. ))
ETA: Think of it guys. THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES.

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I think this is aesthetic is already there, in a scattershot sort of way, in the South Sea items (specifically the talisman and the furniture). My lot's from Mindanao, mind, so I'd also like to see more items with a Malay aesthetic too.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

snip

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If you really want to go there...

A number of Japanese fans said they would be offended if the part was given to a non-Japanese Asian woman. Don't use the term "Asian-American" if you mean specifically people of Japanese descent. If you're using it to mean "any Asian would be fine, just not white," then you're actually touting an extremely narrow-minded opinion that only masquerades as acceptance. The GiTS movie is using a number of Japanese actors in major roles, actually, just not as the Major.

But this is getting pretty far from FFXIV.

I don't really see the problem, I mean Ishgard is clearly an analogue for a sort of victorian super-europe, what with all the ultra gothic architecture and steam powered contraptions, especially now that Ishgard has the exact same governance system as the UK: A house of Lords and House of Commons.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

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(( Really? Do you have screenshots/item names you can PM me? As I do not want to veer the main topic too off course, and made that comment in passing mention :)! It would make sense if it were "South Sea", as the Philippines are apart of Maritime South East Asia.))

I'm Chinese by ethnicity. By nationality, I belong in Southeast Asia. I don't find anything offensive or insulting about the presentation of East Asian inspired items in the game.

It seems to me that this is a problem only if one wants to make it a problem. For one thing, none of us have seen what Othard is actually like, and the Doman refugees just happen to be the only Othardian culture we have had contact with so far. How then can anyone jump to the conclusion that all of Othard must be like Doma? I would suggest that we reserve judgment until we have more evidence.

If anything, we have at least one substantial clue about the geo-cultural differences across Othard, and that's from what we know about Xaela and Raen. The Xaela are a nomadic people who roam the vast steppes of western Othard, and are clearly inspired by the Mongols. I'm sure we can easily agree that this counts as a distinctive Asian culture, unique and separate from the Japanese-inspired culture that informs Raen lore?

And as for maritime Southeast Asian inspirations, as pointed out by FJerome, it's already partly in the game. I visited a few of the islands of Okinawa in 2015, and I am struck by how much the far-flung island chain reminded me of Limsa Lominsa's geography. Vylbrand, the home island of Limsa Lominsa, is largely sub-tropical. You can see vestiges of Malay-style village huts in the more tropical east coast, while the west coast has a more temperate climate. And then there are clothing/glamour items that purportedly come from the "South Seas".

So, from my point of view, there is diversity. But I certainly can't help it if players choose not to see it even when it's there for all to see.

I mean... I don't want to detract from the original point of this thread but if we're going to complain about misrepresentation of cultures I'd like to point out that the only representation of my own culture in this game is through half-naked dancing girls, turban-clad salesmen, and a selfish and greedy city-state.

But back on topic, It's not like WoW's MoP that was rife with Chinese cultural stereotypes. We've barely scratched the surface of what Othard and Doma are. For all we know, Doma itself could be Japan, with other areas of Othard representing different east Asian cultures.

Every region of Aldenard is vastly different from the next. Whether it be island, desert, forest or tundra, each zone not only has a different climate and scenery but also a different culture and racial distribution altogether. Even the HW zones vary a bit. I sincerely doubt the entirety of Othard would just be one big cluster of the same Asian-culture stereotype stew in every region.

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Originally Posted by AutumnHarvestwind

((This is a pretty unrelated noted, but I would love for there to be Philippine visual cues in Othard, as a half pilipina lol. ))
ETA: Think of it guys. THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...089a9a9b84.jpg
http://media.philstar.com/images/the...t-Province.jpg
http://vigattintourism.com/assets/ar...45wPHNW6NJ.jpg
http://i1.wp.com/www.relativityonlin...hilippines.jpg

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Those images actually remind me a lot of different parts of La Noscea. The first three remind me of Raincatcher Gully on Eastern LN and the last one looks like a shot of O'Ghomoro in the background.

Like TinyRedLeaf before me, I'm of immigrant Chinese descent, born and raised in South East Asia. So far, absolutely nothing of the depictions of Chinese culture, and Asian cultures in general, have come off as offensive or ignorant to me. In fact, there have been very few examples of things that I can conclusively name as coming from Chinese culture, as opposed to Japanese.

The point being, so far, everything we've seen from Doma has been clearly Japanese in origin. You're assuming, based off one Mogstation item, that the dev team is suddenly going to start randomly mashing up cultures with no rhyme or reason, when nothing in the game's depiction of cultures so far has come off as truly lazy or stereotyped to me.

No, the qipao doesn't count when it's not even been released yet.

What I do find far more offensive is white Americans telling me I'm not allowed to make jokes about my own culture and heritage online, all because "someone else might get offended". I've been threatened with expulsion from an FC for doing this, and unsurprisingly, I'm no longer a member of that FC. It's amusingly ironic how, in their efforts to avoid racism and be all politically correct, people wind up being way more racist and offensive to me. I don't mind racist jokes, as long as they're clearly made in good humour. I don't mind ignorance of my culture, as long as the ignorant are interested and willing to learn about it. I do, however, mind active censorship of expressions of my culture.

But on the topic of cultures, I would find it interesting if the devs found a way to show off the effects that colonisation by the Garleans have had, on the places conquered. We've already had a few mentions of this, with the latest generation of Ala Mhigans all growing up under Garlean rule. With my own country being a former British colony, I would love to see something like this being shown in a fictional world.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Those images actually remind me a lot of different parts of La Noscea. The first three remind me of Raincatcher Gully on Eastern LN and the last one looks like a shot of O'Ghomoro in the background.

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Makes me wonder if the geography in Eorzea's regions were inspired by particular real world places.