So, I have an intellectual thought on the echo. If you die, and come back to life, are you waking up in a new timeline every time? Is your character eternally dying, and being reborn anew in a timeline where you aren't dead? Its been pondering my mind lately.
The Echo, and Timelines
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06-23-2016, 10:03 PMDamianFataleThe Echo, and Timelines
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06-23-2016, 10:21 PMFJerome
The theory I'm going with is the Echo is just showing you potential futures and you ping through them until you find the route to success.
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06-23-2016, 10:29 PMCipher_Zaabiz
It's like yetis in discworld. When u die, u just jump back to the last "save point" and try this anew so you won't die.
There are exceptions though, like the time, middy sealed your powers within you, it just overpowered your blessings of hyadelin. -
06-23-2016, 11:40 PMAnonymoose
Technically speaking, according to the game world, you never die, you just get knocked out and then your body auto-returns as a defense mechanism.
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06-23-2016, 11:52 PMNeophyteThis. Also Phoenix down and Ressurection spells only cure the status 'incapacitated', else we could've used a phoenix down/rezz to save Haurchfaunt. D:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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06-24-2016, 12:09 AMKalleraTwo things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
1. so if we use the echo to "look back into our own memories"(like with df runs or the anima's quest's version of the vault) is it kinda of like a lucid dream where we visualize what may happen depending on how we act? and where death/ failure/ eaten by fish is little more than say waking up from a dream? can duty finder play into this?
2. ok, technically we do not die right? What about the passage of time? if we get knocked unconcious or some similar fate happens, wouldn't time keep going? What resets the situation? or, are all df failures "using the echo", and all df successes real?
Yes, I understand there some gameplay story separation involved here. but I'm interested in understanding how using the echo in memories can result in different experiences. it'd be cool if it was like a lucid dream you can tap into. -
06-24-2016, 03:30 AMAnonymoose
DISCLAIMER:
None of the following is Truth. It is my speculative opinion, something that is prone to changing with more information.
EDIT:
Wow, that's way more than I intended to type. I get the feeling I'll be quoting bits of it for years, though, lol.
The way the Echo interacts with memories is its most apparent function, and thus it is often the first way its existence is noticed at all. By virtue of that, its interaction with memory becomes the default way we think of its being. That's only reinforced in English, where it was given a name that literally means "to experience again by reflection". It's as though it was named by the NPCs rather than the devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
But the Echo is so much more than memories and visions, and thus not everything the Echo has a part in must incorporate them. It does a great many things. Let's use the Japanese name: The Power to Surpass. You were unable to overcome your situation, but (because you have the Echo) you were granted the power to surpass that obstacle. How and why? I suppose we're free to muse, and we have way more options than memories and visions.
Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
We're well past the "lore singularity" here. The answers, should we come up with them, have no in-world bearing whatsoever. They reflect our experiences as players. The Warrior of Light doesn't see the user interface.
You mentioned the Anima quest, where we re-conquer the Vault. That's a good example, because Japanese, German, and French all leave it at: Revisit the highlights of your career! / Queue up! / Good job! English added this whole paragraph about how it's just a re-enactment in your mind, presumably because they foresaw: Why are the Heavens' Ward still alive?
Side note:
I'm actually kind of amazed, too. The same journal entry says that Gerolt wants you to revisit your greatest battles from "over the years"
and for the first time ever we weren't inundated with "SEE, THE TIME BUBBLE IS TRAAASH!!!1!"
Imho, we're spoiled a bit when they do backbends to avoid asking us to accept that sometimes things happen: Because vidya james! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We'd do well to keep in mind that we sometimes ask an unfair amount when it comes to preserving immersion on the player's side of the screen.
Trying to factor in that wipes happen, and the time it took them to happen, might be as futile as trying to factor in that, according to the game clock, you've eaten five whole cakes whilst in the midst of unceasing mortal combat for ten straight days. The community as a whole struggles so hard to "lore-out" the Duty Finder, yet is hilariously unconcerned (by comparison, I mean) with that we draw upon a metabolic wellspring from an alternate dimension where we're apparently storing all of our bodily waste (until one glorious day).
Alright. Weight off my shoulders. Let's go deeper.
WHAT IF, INDEED! Once we've Inception'd game mechanic lore into this many layers, I imagine that (much like the canon-ocity of Hildibrand), the player is free to come up with whatever they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Errybodeh
Maybe you were knocked out and returned to the entrance rather than an aetheryte becausevidya jameseven your subconscious is so damned determined to see this through that it returned to the last place it knew it was safe.
Maybe, canonically, you never wiped at all and are just out-of-world resetting to a save point, as Cipher said. Maybe only the successful run counts, and Hydaelyn just knew to hit you with the Echo like the Blessing of Light in Praetorium becausevidya jamesshe, being so deeply connected to the both corporeal world and her champion, can gauge what will overwhelm them. Like FJerome said, maybe you're just envisioning the failures.
Maybe your character does have walking, lucid daydreams. They did in 1.0!
What is a Roulette? Are you re-imagining it? Are you imagining those tomes? Wait, how am I carrying around thousands of tomes? How are they even considered rare at this point? And why is Rowena only interested in one subject at a time!? Why weren't Esoterics in Amdapor last time I was here!? Why are there more of them because I'm imaging running it with someone else who wasn't there last time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Personally, I confess that I tend to write off that whole top layer of player experience (over-simplifying it to basic elements). The grind, repetition, content recycling, etc. all gets swept into the bin with the improbable existence and behavior of mounts and minions, Triad Card depictions, crossover events, holiday celebrations, and that I change my clothes in public, carry hundreds of ponzes of fish in my pockets, and that the whole world is perfectly comfortable pausing after every sentence until I, the Warrior of Light, Press [A].
But maybe some snarky journal entries in Patch 3.4+ will establish new vistas of player experience lore explaining (even in a tongue-in-cheek way) minutia in the user interface and the duty finder and device input. I never expected the journal would say, "You reenanct / reenvision".
VIDYA JAMES!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -
06-24-2016, 04:42 AMCilia
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff ahead.
Ahem.
There are three possibilities considering this I have... considered.
1. Hydaelyn is our Observer.
-BlazBlue nerds will understand this well. Effectively, all of our deaths (and indeed the sequence of events that led us to the current state) are mere possibilities as to how things could play out. However, as the Goddess of the world Hydaelyn has the power of an Observer, essentially letting her choose the timeline and what eventualities are "real" while simultaneously preventing her from intervening directly. So we do die - or rather, other "us"es die - but the "us" that is currently alive and fighting the good fight is but one of many, many possible "us"es. It's wonky, I know, and complicated, but it's the best I can do.
2. We're Echo parasites a la the Sahagin Elder.
-Self-explanatory. It's kind of like how KotOR II incorporated gameplay elements into the story; seems unlikely though.
3. We just pass out and are reflexively / automatically teleported to our home point (or the start of the dungeon).
... or, you know, there's no complex lore reason explaining it. There isn't always one. -
06-24-2016, 09:05 AMAutumnHarvestwind
(( or we are pulling a silent hill 3 moment and
ValtielZodiark drags our body to revive it, we must give birth to our God. WE MUST. -
06-24-2016, 12:14 PMEnkidoh
Again, I'm just going to put it down to gameplay and story segregation - narrative wise you only ever travel into a dungeon or raid or duty once. Concepts like Duty Roulette are ignored by the storyline.
The only times you travel back into a dungeon a second time are for the hard mode version (the hard mode storylines are usually attempts are made to clean out or restore the dungeon after the player went into it, only for the authorities to discover we didn't really do a very good job and that there is still something evil in there, and we're roped into dealing with it). So narrative wise, repeating a dungeon is ignored by the game's storyline, you only ever fought through it once.
"BUUUUT ENKI!!!" I hear you say. "What about things like atma books directing you to do a certain dungeon? Or the anima weapon quests doing the same?" Well, again narrative wise that is not actually part of the story despite appearances. You're being told to enter it by a game menu, not part of the storyline. There are situations where sidequests involve a certain dungeon (specifically, some of the Grand Company quests coincide with a separate sidequest to unlock the Aurum Vale and Dzmael Darkhold), but those seem to be exceptions, and even they can be handwaved away that despite being separate stories, actually are concurrent in the narrative (in other words, despite accessing those quests separately, story wise you did them both at the same time).
This was confirmed back during one of the Fanfests when Ferne explained that the game's narrative does not flow according to how the player might play through content - it instead has it's own set narrative flow that ignores gameplay (this was specifically used to explain why a player could do the level 50 CUL quest featuring making a meal for a certain Sultana of Ul'dah, even after having done the 2.55 story where... you know.. she was kind of put on a bus for an extended period and considered for all intents and purposes, deader than dead (of course that particular bus came back, but we didn't know it at the time. ;)).
So basically, regardless of how you undertake content in the game, the game's storyline has a specific, structured chronology that ignores in what order players may actually undertake it, so a little suspension of disbelief is required here to make it all work. ;) -
06-25-2016, 04:24 AMThe_NPC
I'll take my personal headcannon: 1st time u win is "real" rest are just non-stop waking nightmares made from entering a "Dream Dimension" (mentally only) & only that which u "take" or "aquire" in said place can leave with u Aethericly recreated into u'r inventory (The Tomestones were never really there.... NEVER! well cept whatever tomes u origionally got when content was new). If u fail said 1st try & have to re-DF well congrats u just palayed out a "What-if" attempt in u'r head using said "Alter-Mind realm" unconciously (to explain random gear u got from the half-run that u just go "Uh when did I... maybe at the market from that trader I can't remember?") & thus all those ppl u meat in DF (Be it pre-made or full randoms is just a crap ton of Echo users have 1 big ass shared nightmare... the PTSD is real & causeing memory confusion). as for the open world tele's NPC's explained that nicely, just we're "Special" & can do it way more than a normal person (normal non-echo ppl maybe 1 a week, echo users 4-5 a day, WoL's un-frigin-limited), I wanna know who's taking my Gil every teleport -_-*
What due u expect the the worlds most adept, fast-learning, rich, badass, God-blessed, ever-reviving Hobo... pure wide-eyed impossibility 24/7 with short bursts of Normality -
06-25-2016, 04:35 AMMaikoRaines
Simplest answer...
http://i.imgur.com/UQodcgF.jpg -
06-25-2016, 03:30 PMShadotterdan
Those aren't canon
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06-28-2016, 04:13 AMTenkuu
Let me start off this post by saying that your replies are always great to read for either their speculation, facts, or entertainment value. Thank you for being humble and always being kind and respectful. You're always a fun read! :)
Simply go back to Minfilia's original exposition on the Echo, when you first meet her, for details on exactly what the Echo is supposed to give you the power to surpass/overcome. Among others, she names the barriers of people's hearts, the language barriers between different beast tribes, and the boundary between the past and the present. We also know from the Ascians that it transcends the boundaries of one's existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Duty Finder is the same as the Journal: it's all memories that you're reliving since you can't, in lore, clear the same dungeon more than once. Once a deadly monster has been killed, it can't be re-killed in lore, after all.Quote:
You mentioned the Anima quest, where we re-conquer the Vault. That's a good example, because Japanese, German, and French all leave it at: Revisit the highlights of your career! / Queue up! / Good job! English added this whole paragraph about how it's just a re-enactment in your mind, presumably because they foresaw: Why are the Heavens' Ward still alive?
I can't recall where I read this, nor was I able to find it again, but I'm pretty sure the passage of time is a normal thing in the game's lore. It seems to be that the only situation where a time bubble actually applies is within the same expansion. After all, NPCs' hair wouldn't grow if time didn't pass, nor would they be able to make speeches about certain events being in the past. It seems reasonable to assume that each expansion can cover a maximum of one year, but to be frank, events truly seemed to happen in much more of a rush in 3.0, as if it were all taking place over the course of a few weeks. In 2.0, crises were more separate with clearer breaks between them when we could easily, in lore, be doing nothing at all, with even Minfilia telling us to take some time off.Quote:
Side note:
I'm actually kind of amazed, too. The same journal entry says that Gerolt wants you to revisit your greatest battles from "over the years"
and for the first time ever we weren't inundated with "SEE, THE TIME BUBBLE IS TRAAASH!!!1!"
Given that we're the Warrior of Light, I would say that in lore canon, wipes don't actually happen. If they did, you'd be dead rather than unconscious. Your safe point argument makes sense though as far as explaining the dungeon respawn points and shortcuts.Quote:
Maybe you were knocked out and returned to the entrance rather than an aetheryte becausevidya jameseven your subconscious is so damned determined to see this through that it returned to the last place it knew it was safe.
Maybe, canonically, you never wiped at all and are just out-of-world resetting to a save point, as Cipher said. Maybe only the successful run counts, and Hydaelyn just knew to hit you with the Echo like the Blessing of Light in Praetorium becausevidya jamesshe, being so deeply connected to the both corporeal world and her champion, can gauge what will overwhelm them. Like FJerome said, maybe you're just envisioning the failures.
That was the Echo though, wasn't it? Ie going back to the whole thing about how the Echo allows you to walk in a person's memories and travel through time.Quote:
Maybe your character does have walking, lucid daydreams. They did in 1.0!
I like to think of the Roulettes as series of grouped memories. For instance, a certain set of dungeons all remind you of one another, so in your mind they all fit into the same "Roulette" of memories that you might choose to revisit at any time. As for the tomes, how big are they supposed to be? If they're the size of coins or USB drives, it should be pretty easy to carry thousands of them around in your invisible bag. Or, like with currencies, there are single tomes each worth values of 5, 10, 20, 50 and 100. You can think of these tomes of higher values as containing more data or something. As for Rowena, she essentially has the mindset of a teenager who's constantly finding a new trend to keep up with (some would say she's more of a businesswoman in that sense, but I don't like her enough to give her any sort of respectable title).Quote:
What is a Roulette? Are you re-imagining it? Are you imagining those tomes? Wait, how am I carrying around thousands of tomes? How are they even considered rare at this point? And why is Rowena only interested in one subject at a time!? Why weren't Esoterics in Amdapor last time I was here!? Why are there more of them because I'm imaging running it with someone else who wasn't there last time?
Triple Triad lore, as far as the matches go, should be something like that with every match you have with an NPC, you get a prize if you win and hand over something of your own if you lose. With regards to the cards, it's probably something like that there's a basic set of official cards, and then there are some fan-designed cards that get accepted as official cards. I mean, how would Godbert Manderville know of Calcabrina, for instance?Quote:
Personally, I confess that I tend to write off that whole top layer of player experience (over-simplifying it to basic elements). The grind, repetition, content recycling, etc. all gets swept into the bin with the improbable existence and behavior of mounts and minions, Triad Card depictions, crossover events, holiday celebrations, and that I change my clothes in public, carry hundreds of ponzes of fish in my pockets, and that the whole world is perfectly comfortable pausing after every sentence until I, the Warrior of Light, Press [A].