WAR vs. DRK: Philosophy

So some time ago, after my gushing (gushing!) on the well-done DRK 30-50 line, someone asked me if there was any correlation between the Inner Beast and "Fray" (your Shadow / Dark Side). Now that I've finally gotten around to finishing WAR 30-50, I can answer that.

Yes there is!

In the WAR 30-50 line, Curious Gorge is training you, or at least imparting techniques that he knows while you help him search for his brother, Broken Mountain. However once you fend off some monsters at Wineport during the 50 quest, Curious Gorge fights a berserked Broken Mountain in the city and crushes him by giving in to his own Inner Beast. Before the battle he rants about how great he is, about how he's the true Warrior, about how he's going to bring his village back to glory, etc. After you manage to overcome him, however, he admits to you that he was deluding himself - he knew all along that Broken Mountain had succumbed, and that the way of his village was wrong because it preached using rage to solve everything.

That self-delusion is the key.

Throughout the DRK 30-50 line, "Fray" constantly chides you for being heroic and self-sacrificing despite the fact you get nothing in return, as if you're deluding yourself into thinking that's what you want and/or that people are good. It comes to a head in the 50 quest, where your Shadow manifests independent of Fray's body and challenges you to overcome it.

It's very similar to Curious Gorge succumbing to his Inner Beast - the only difference is that your Shadow is an independent manifestation, while the Inner Beast lacks this ability. However if Curious Gorge was a DRK instead I can only surmise that his own Shadow would behave quite similarly to how he was after succumbing... with less implacable rage, but even so.

That said, there is a fundamental difference between what drives a DRK and a WAR: WAR is driven by the primal lust for blood and violence, while DRK fuels itself with hate and rage toward injustice. Their powers are also significantly different, but that's plainly visible in their gameplay mechanics.

So yes, there is likely a strong correlation between the Shadow and Inner Beast, even if that wasn't intended from the first.

Very neat. As a fellow lover of the DRK, I always enjoy your posts and insights.

I think another way to understand it is that the WAR way (rage) was wrong, as depicted by the fact that there's no longer any glory associated with being a WAR; whereas with DRK, the way (love) seems to have been the right one but known only to a few.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I think another way to understand it is that the WAR way (rage) was wrong, as depicted by the fact that there's no longer any glory associated with being a WAR; whereas with DRK, the way (love) seems to have been the right one but known only to a few.

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The self-delusion is different, but it's still the thread that connects the two.

Curious Gorge gives in to his Inner Beast before ranting about how awesome he is, how he's the true Warrior and you're just a pale imitation of one, etc. "Fray," on the other hand, admonishes you for being self-sacrificing and acting as if you're OK with it and the abuse people heap on you while getting nothing in return - again, as if you're deluding yourself into believing that, in your heart of hearts, is what you really want. Then remember that "Fray" is you, and it all becomes clear...

The key to mastering both powers lies in self-acceptance, but also knowing when to put away the "darkness." Where Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain fail is their inability to put away their pride and bloodlust, turning them into raging beasts - a fearsome sight on the battlefield, to be sure, but you're stronger than them because you know when to put the Inner Beast away and refuse to succumb. Mastering the power of darkness is rather similar - most everyone has the dark impulses Dark Knights channel, but because you know who to direct it at and refuse to give in to hatred, you're able to use that power without falling. (Of course, love is also required to use the power of “darkness” to its fullest extent, but that’s another matter. Sorta.)

In essence both draw from similarly "dark" emotions, but you're able to do what others are not by accepting that "darkness" as a part of yourself without letting it control you. DRK is a much closer shave, as you never show signs of succumbing as a WAR, but that's due to the soulstone reacting in an abnormal and unexpected manner.

I don't know why, but there's something so simple, and fluid about the dark knight class. I absolutely love it, and now that I see this, I love it more! Thank you for this wonderful insight. :)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The self-delusion is different, but it's still the thread that connects the two.

Curious Gorge gives in to his Inner Beast before ranting about how awesome he is, how he's the true Warrior and you're just a pale imitation of one, etc. "Fray," on the other hand, admonishes you for being self-sacrificing and acting as if you're OK with it and the abuse people heap on you while getting nothing in return - again, as if you're deluding yourself into believing that, in your heart of hearts, is what you really want. Then remember that "Fray" is you, and it all becomes clear...

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But Fray was not wrong in what he said, whereas Curious Gorge was. Actually, what Fray says is essentially the same admonition the Scions had for Thancred in 2.0, that he was taking too much upon himself alone and being too hard on himself for his failures (perceived or actual). Curious Gorge on the other hand is essentially just bad-mouthing you at that point.

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The key to mastering both powers lies in self-acceptance, but also knowing when to put away the "darkness." Where Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain fail is their inability to put away their pride and bloodlust, turning them into raging beasts - a fearsome sight on the battlefield, to be sure, but you're stronger than them because you know when to put the Inner Beast away and refuse to succumb. Mastering the power of darkness is rather similar - most everyone has the dark impulses Dark Knights channel, but because you know who to direct it at and refuse to give in to hatred, you're able to use that power without falling. (Of course, love is also required to use the power of “darkness” to its fullest extent, but that’s another matter. Sorta.)

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True, but my point was that DRK originated from a better place, ie righting a wrong. In other words, they had the right intentions from the beginning, and those who did not lose themselves were the few who knew the "love" secret to its power. With WAR, it seems to be the case that they all succumbed to losing control of their power because of rage. Though I'm actually unclear on whether Fray (the real Fray) is considered as one who discovered the secret to DRK power or whether he failed.

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In essence both draw from similarly "dark" emotions, but you're able to do what others are not by accepting that "darkness" as a part of yourself without letting it control you. DRK is a much closer shave, as you never show signs of succumbing as a WAR, but that's due to the soulstone reacting in an abnormal and unexpected manner.

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Well, but DRK in the first place comes from a place of seeking justice rather than glory, which is what WAR is more focused on. There is no glory at all to being a DRK, it is literally about doing what you alone feel is right. Even with the "dark" name attached to it, DRK still felt much more natural than WAR.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I think another way to understand it is that the WAR way (rage) was wrong, as depicted by the fact that there's no longer any glory associated with being a WAR; whereas with DRK, the way (love) seems to have been the right one but known only to a few.

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I am offended at even such a suggestion! Dark Knights have no great deeds to call their own, while my ilk has wrestles with BEARS! MOUNTAIN BEARS!

HULK ANGRY!11!!!!one1one!1

Cilia is now a roe, and that really threw me.... I'm used to that dark haired female... ( am I the only one that looks at the pictures rather then names? Probably!)

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Cilia is now a roe, and that really threw me.... I'm used to that dark haired female... ( am I the only one that looks at the pictures rather then names? Probably!)

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The number of lizard waifus running around was too high for my taste, and providing some fanservice for the ladies is a civic duty. Civic duty!

My only regret... is that I need new swimsuits...

Apropos of nothing, sparkling water tastes terrible. Like really, really watered-down soda.

Ever play the game Persona 4? I'm only at 45 on the DRK story but I always thought that the Shadows from that game are similar to Fray. Basically the concept is that your Shadow is the part of you that you reject, the parts of your personality that you don't want to admit exist. For instance one of the characters says he's on the adventure to get justice for a murdered classmate he had a crush on, but his Shadow reveals that he's actually doing it to stave off small town boredom. The Shadows can't be defeated unless a person accepts the Shadow as being a true part of them, but it's also important to realize that your Shadow isn't the whole truth. So while it's true that part of the WoL may be tired of everyone dumping their problems on him/her only to be taken for granted or betrayed it's also true that the WoL is doing this stuff because it's the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by SuperFlorinjin

Ever play the game Persona 4?

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Only about six times. (Naoto is my waifu.)

And I noticed the similarities after the big reveal quickly (even before then I had suspicions). I'd dredge up the old thread I made about it... but I don't wanna.

That aside, "Fray" is functionally similar to a Persona Shadow, the only difference being s/he possesses a human medium until the latter half of the 50 quest. Maybe. Possibly. Who knows.

Man I've most late on posting on so many threads this patch!

Ok, my take is actually a bit different. I'll be curious to see if your view changes at all when you get to 60. The 50-60 do share some similarities between DRK and WAR but I think there is a fundamental difference too.

First and very important point with the Inner Beast. The WoL has never lost control of it. The 50-60 WAR quests explain why.

On a fundamental level the key similarity between the two is emotion. DRKs fundimentally draw on and manifest 'darker' emotions such as rage, fear, hate, pain, sadness, etc and use it as a weapon. In the 50-60 DRK quests it shows the key is to understand what you are fighting for and what invokes those emotions. The 'Flame in the darkness'. You balance your darkness by finding something to anchor you something to fight for. This is similar with WAR.

However I think the fundamental thing with the Inner beast is that its a pure and primal and above all honest representation of the desire of the WAR. Its not so much as harnessing darker aspects of ones nature as much as channeling primal emotional reactions. The reason Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain couldn't control the Inner Beast is that their desires were about being the strongest and proving that strength, driven by fear and desire to prove themselves, not a desire to protect the town. The WAR is kind of like the Hulk. When he is fighting for the right reasons he can be a hero. When he is just angry and confused or hurt he can be extremely dangerous and destructive. There is a purity to motivation and reason just won't control that.

Im trying, somewhat unsuccessfully to dodge around spoilers. I guess my point is that with a DRK its about harnessing your inner turmoil and pain and channeling it while anchoring yourself by remembering what your fighting for. With the Inner beast its about being honest with yourself and clear on why you are fighting.

On a side note, didn't they hint a live letter back ago or two that they might have Fray make a reappearance in the future? I kind of hope so. Fray is a fantastic way of conveying the WoL as a character.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

I am offended at even such a suggestion! Dark Knights have no great deeds to call their own, while my ilk has wrestles with BEARS! MOUNTAIN BEARS!

HULK ANGRY!11!!!!one1one!1

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Isn't that the whole point though? DRKs take up causes that aren't their own rather than fight for themselves or to prove themselves to anyone. In fact, rather than trying to prove anything to anyone, they're risking themselves to do what they feel is the right thing. As Belhi was saying, DRK is truly the job that comes the closest to the defining parts of the WoL's personality.

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Originally Posted by SuperFlorinjin

Ever play the game Persona 4? I'm only at 45 on the DRK story but I always thought that the Shadows from that game are similar to Fray. Basically the concept is that your Shadow is the part of you that you reject, the parts of your personality that you don't want to admit exist. For instance one of the characters says he's on the adventure to get justice for a murdered classmate he had a crush on, but his Shadow reveals that he's actually doing it to stave off small town boredom. The Shadows can't be defeated unless a person accepts the Shadow as being a true part of them, but it's also important to realize that your Shadow isn't the whole truth. So while it's true that part of the WoL may be tired of everyone dumping their problems on him/her only to be taken for granted or betrayed it's also true that the WoL is doing this stuff because it's the right thing to do.

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The WoL is tired of people dumping all of their problems on them, but the reactions we've had even in the entirety of 2.0, in a few cutscenes, already showed that we're not just some placid doormat. Our reactions, few though they may be, have ranged from surprise and shock to fear, worry, happiness, anger, annoyance, and sadness (Edda, T12 and T13). There are probably even more that I'm forgetting. DRK didn't feel like such a stretch because the WoL is shown to have those feelings, just unvoiced most of the time. We definitely got more chances to voice personal annoyance with a situation with 3.0 in general though, especially in 3.2 where one of the possible answers to Thancred asking what we're going to do about the Grand Melee is literally, in the Japanese version, that we're fed up with the whole thing (I loved that answer). The WoL has reacted to several events but hasn't let those events affect them to the same degree as other people.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

On a fundamental level the key similarity between the two is emotion. DRKs fundimentally draw on and manifest 'darker' emotions such as rage, fear, hate, pain, sadness, etc and use it as a weapon. In the 50-60 DRK quests it shows the key is to understand what you are fighting for and what invokes those emotions. The 'Flame in the darkness'. You balance your darkness by finding something to anchor you something to fight for. This is similar with WAR.

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Technically speaking, all jobs involve some degree of darkness. With SMN, for instance, those who crave too much power end up drawing the attention of Ascians. Not to mention when you add in the 50-60 job storyline and the most recent auracite reveal, SMN easily feels like the job that's the most vulnerable to the appeal of its own power. When you consider the fact that unlike with the other jobs, a SMN is pretty much confirmed to be a primal killer, this is the job that has always felt the closest to the MSQ for me. You could even argue that as a primal killer, SMN is the most powerful job. Quick question: are Ascians considered the ultimate dark SMNs?

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However I think the fundamental thing with the Inner beast is that its a pure and primal and above all honest representation of the desire of the WAR. Its not so much as harnessing darker aspects of ones nature as much as channeling primal emotional reactions. The reason Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain couldn't control the Inner Beast is that their desires were about being the strongest and proving that strength, driven by fear and desire to prove themselves, not a desire to protect the town. The WAR is kind of like the Hulk. When he is fighting for the right reasons he can be a hero. When he is just angry and confused or hurt he can be extremely dangerous and destructive. There is a purity to motivation and reason just won't control that.

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I agree completely. This is exactly why I feel that DRK comes from a place of greater intentions than WAR. DRKs literally gain nothing from taking up someone else's cause and righting an injustice. They don't even do it because they want to be proven right, but more as a "fuck you" to the system. There is no glory in being a DRK, it's essentially about following your heart. BRD is probably similar in that respect.

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Im trying, somewhat unsuccessfully to dodge around spoilers. I guess my point is that with a DRK its about harnessing your inner turmoil and pain and channeling it while anchoring yourself by remembering what your fighting for. With the Inner beast its about being honest with yourself and clear on why you are fighting.

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Since we're delving pretty deep into jobs with comparisons, I think spoilers are to be expected and shouldn't be avoided in a thread like this. I think with both DRK and WAR, what you are fighting for is important to remember, otherwise you lose yourself in either selfish desire (WAR) or negative emotions (DRK).

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On a side note, didn't they hint a live letter back ago or two that they might have Fray make a reappearance in the future? I kind of hope so. Fray is a fantastic way of conveying the WoL as a character.

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I'm not sure whether you mean the actual Fray (the dead guy) or your darkside, but I'd be interested in seeing more of either one.

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Originally Posted by Tenkuu

I agree completely. This is exactly why I feel that DRK comes from a place of greater intentions than WAR. DRKs literally gain nothing from taking up someone else's cause and righting an injustice. They don't even do it because they want to be proven right, but more as a "fuck you" to the system. There is no glory in being a DRK, it's essentially about following your heart. BRD is probably similar in that respect.


I'm not sure whether you mean the actual Fray (the dead guy) or your darkside, but I'd be interested in seeing more of either one.

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And that is why I love DRK. As for Fray's return, they just mentioned revisiting the quest without being to specific, it was that last LL from Japan, I think, the one that had the scenario writer as a special guest

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Originally Posted by Grayve

And that is why I love DRK. As for Fray's return, they just mentioned revisiting the quest without being to specific, it was that last LL from Japan, I think, the one that had the scenario writer as a special guest

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I think I read that one, but I don't recall seeing anything about that. If you find it again, please show me a quote. I'd love to know the specifics of what was said.

I really need to level these jobs now.