There's a sprinkler analogy that exists for this issue.
Let's say you were to buy a new sprinkler for your garden and one day, you get told there's easily a better place to put it in which will make sure all your grass is correctly watered. Great!
Except you don't want to move the sprinkler because you put it there yourself - you instead look at the water pressure, the trajectory of the water, the type of grass you have. etc etc... when all you really have to do is move the sprinkler.
This is what's happening right now with class balance in PVP.
"MCH too strong in PvP? Buff BRD some more np they'll learn how to play" - SE
BRD can already guarantee a kill on someone in ONE GCD from 80% every 2 minutes if they have a single crit. If not - just hit Misery's End to finish them off. MCH takes more work but can perform even better in the burst if BtE crits.
Also - DRK still needs a damage buff, although in my opinion only for the small burst window. Sustained DPS is not too bad as they have other utilities but PLD has the utility advantage by far and WAR just outshines it with double FC's.
I would simply propose these changes for example:
Barrage hits 2 times instead of 3 times, given the current changes. Can still kill from 80%, more reliably from 60%.
Nullify BtE crit chance - MCH has a higher skill curve so I think no other changes are needed.
DRK Carve and Spit - Potency to 600 (PvP only)
The reasoning for the C&S potency change would be so they have a 1500 potency burst . WAR's have 2000+ potency, including the stuns and Storms Eye in beserk. These figures are not even including the vulnerability debuff - which actually gives a WAR a 2500 potency burst and DRK as 1700 burst. It's just enough to be able to harass a player.
I think the Sole Survivor buff is actually pretty good. With a DPS buff it will actually put DRK in a worthwhile position.
Class balance...
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06-03-2016, 11:30 PMitsoniClass balance...
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06-04-2016, 12:26 AMNalien
Doesn't matter how much damage you give Dark Knight, MP is its primary issue. Dark Knights damage and its mitigation are built around MP, but its MP costs/recovery are not built around PvP. I know SE is aware of this, because they fixed Darkside already, no idea why Grit and Dark Arts haven't received similar treatment yet... Moment MP dries up, Dark Knight is nothing, with Blood Price being fairly worthless and Blood Weapon losing a lot of its value due to how mobile PvP combat is and the nature of crowd controlling... Grit is the worst though, not only do you lose your only semi-useful means of MP recovery, but you pay a fairly hefty sum upfront too... Meanwhile Warrior can just switch freely and get a powerful self heal out of the deal, while the only self heal Dark Knight gets out of Grit is Souleater, which sucks... Drains in general just suck for self-healing, because one shield can completely deny you that...
Their attempt at fixing Dark Knight is pathetic IMO, Soul Survivor is nice though, actually have a reason to use it on people now, even if that means I'm likely not going to see MP returns on it... Still think SE has balanced Warrior and Dark Knight backwards... MP management is more complex than Abandon stacks, and prepping Dark Arts before most of your skills makes for a more complex burst... That should justify higher damage IMO, but instead Warrior has the highest and better utility... Would be nice if I could stack Dark Arts like Aetherflow or something, although then Dark Knights burst is as obvious as Warriors... Still, would make Dark Knights burst considerably simpler...
None of that even touches on utility, of course... -
06-04-2016, 01:46 AMGeologo
For DRK they should do something to his MP managment, someone proposed to allow him using Manadraw, but IMHO is is a lazy and not so effective solution, it need something like:
. enhance Bloodweapon MP regeneration (PvP only)
. While in Bloodprice the your skills require half (or a % reduction) of their MP cost (PvP only)
So you will have to use it mindful and if you do you will have a 20% costant damage buff, that with other side fix (like Sole survivor, carnal chill ...) it makes him a valuable class. -
06-04-2016, 01:57 AMGeologo
For BRD, I feel it as good as it was, when they buffed Farshot I was like "mh... not a big issue but even not needed".
Honestly I wont' see a nerf on the next patch cause of this PvE buff,
maybe I'm wrong but the DoT buff is fine as the Song ones, the true problem is the Blunt arrow, Sidewinder and Empyreal Arrow one :/
The potency is not so heavily changed (a 4,5% buff on EArrow) but it make his burst even more strong,
I wont' see my barrage modified in a damned Duality because of this -.-
Instead as BRD I would love to see my Shadowbind act fastly and not after the animation, maybe it is my connection problem, but if I use it I have to wait an entire second before to start my LB or I'll miss the target :( -
06-04-2016, 03:36 AMDimitrii
Ninja gets that awesome healing reduction ability back yet lowering something as trifling as evasive jump recast for DRG I guess is still overpowered (to offset if only a little our inferior mobility compared to the other 2 melee). Thank you SE for making DRG even less appealing than it already is to use over MNK and now even NIN. Only thing I find funnier is how they keep spitting on SMN's faces by buffing the other ranged classes further who still posses much more potent bursts yet SMN dots remain nerfed even though their burst abilities were also nerfed. Dark Knight still isn't scaring anyone either and is still unwanted in any party composition over the other 2 tanks.
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06-04-2016, 04:15 AMCleanse
Wth the damage that can be dealt with a string of crits, I do not see why classes are getting buffed *up* instead of normalizing them down. Unless the design intent is, "some things shouldn't be healable".
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06-05-2016, 08:25 AMNessaWyvern
I also think that PLDs should have a small nerf, because it isn't fun being a healer and being unable to heal for 10+ seconds, but that's just me.
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06-05-2016, 03:41 PMFebrus7 seconds, for the stun. 9 if they get a silence and knock back as well. The only time it could exceed that is if they have a Shield Swipe Proc'd (which is rare, due to the fact that casters don't proc blocks).Quote:
Originally Posted by NessaWyvern
That aside, I would agree with you if Pld's weren't already MASSIVELY nerfed by their own dps. As it is, that job is far too gimpy by it's very nature for SE to apply any nerfs to it in any content. I get that Pld's are annoying to play against, but pretty much the only thing that Pld's have going for them right now is their fluid stun lock rotation. If you took that away, there'd almost be no point to playing the job. War would be the only viable tank in PvP. -
06-05-2016, 05:58 PMNessaWyvernCombined with Whm/blm, you can be locked down for so long ;-; I kept being matched with PLD+WHM/PLD+BLM/PLD+WHM+BLM over and over. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep. Stun. Stun. Stun. Silence. Knockback "Healer, heal!" ;-;Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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06-05-2016, 07:50 PMZojhaI think the melee limit break and culling time speak a pretty clear message here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleanse
If all things were healable, well...the game would become a battle of the immortals, an eternal stalemate that ends without any kills when the timer runs out. Very exciting. -
06-06-2016, 12:53 AMExiraYou know Pacification doesn't work on healers or casters, right? Unless you are talking about physical jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Also, PLD has far more than just Stun locking going for it. -
06-06-2016, 07:14 AMFebrusI am well aware. I was referring to the odd time you have to shut down a physical burst. It can come in handy for wasting dps time on buffs like Berserk or Blood for Blood, etc. Though, again, the odds of shield swipe being proc'd is quite low, because melee Dps typically don't attack the tank and magic can't proc a block.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
And yes, Pld has a lot going for it, but the VAST majority of it's utility is in it's ability to exercise crowd control. That crowd control comes at the cost of a huge dip in dps. They do have better party defense, that's true, but Testudo, DV, and Cover are all on obnoxiously long CD timers. They can only be stretched so far, and they can be wasted if used at the wrong moments. They are also highly dependent on team coordination. By comparison, War's are far more self-sufficient and have consistently high Dps. They're far easier to use and are almost always an asset, regardless of the situation. There's a reason for why the vast majority of tanks in Feast play as War and not Pld. -
06-06-2016, 07:30 AMFebrusI feel your pain. I'm not gonna lie, there have been a few times where I've been slotted with a good Blm or Whm and I actually feel bad for the enemy healer. The thing is, that kind of coordination is rare and easy to screw up. If the whm or blm cast sleep before my maximum stun duration is over, then they wasted either their CC or mine (depending on if I caught it or not). Further, that lengthy duration is meant to compensate for Pld's abysmal Dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by NessaWyvern
A Pld cannot single burst a target in Feast. Unlike War, Pld has next to no burst potential. Unless the healer is asleep (and I mean the actual player, not their avi), any dmg a Pld can do is easily heal-able. So the only real threat that they pose on the battle field is in how much time they can buy the dps. Pld is designed for setting up the team with opportunities. Their stun rotation is, by far, the best tool they have for doing that. If you take away the Pld's ability to provide those opportunities, then they're practically dead in the water. Even with their increased party defense (which is also designed to allow the dps to fight harder and longer), the best they could hope to do is to delay the inevitable, because they do not have any other way of facilitating kills (which is the only way to actually win). -
06-06-2016, 08:40 AMExiraPLD is not there for their DPS. You are correct that crowd controlling and defending their party is their job. In which case they do exceptionally well. On top of testudo/dv/stun lock/cover PLD also has Clemency/Flash. PLD can answer every burst, WAR's burst being by far the easiest to disrupt. Healers have their own cds as well for burst that line up pretty well with PLDs, considering DPS have to wait on cds too to burst. Timing the usage of utility as PLD is it what differientes the good ones from the bad ones. WAR is a lot easier to use mostly because they don't have the responsibilties of a PLD/DRK. They're a lot of WARs in solo queue because of its potential burst and ease of use. However, a good PLD can negate/peel WAR burst every time. In team queue (what honestly actually matters) PLD is preferred. PLD and WAR are fine, WAR is not better than PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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06-06-2016, 08:55 AMkisada
you're either overrating pld or underrating war.
what matters is your team setup, not which job has better abilities in a vacuum. comp dictates preference. -
06-06-2016, 09:02 AMExira
I suppose saying that both jobs are fine is under/overrating them. I have no need to boast about what is great about WAR considering everyone on the forums thinks they are the best thing that ever happened to PvP.
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06-06-2016, 04:46 PMAviarsThey are the best for solo, which is what most people care about since party Feast is literally dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
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06-06-2016, 05:00 PMFebrusFirstly, I never once said that War is better than Pld, nor that War (or Pld) require adjustments (I am actually arguing for the opposite). All I said was that War was more self-sufficient, had consistently higher dps, was easier to use, and is universally an asset; whereas, Pld requires good party coordination to function properly ... All of which you've basically said in your own post, so I guess you agree with me ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Secondly, you have a few things wrong. Pld cannot answer every burst. That's flat out false, least of all when facing a Wars who can throw out Fell Cleaves roughly every 10 seconds (depending on personal Skill Speed). They can also use double Fell Cleaves every 60 seconds and triple Fell Cleaves roughly every 120 seconds. That's, potentially, 15 Fell Cleaves within their full burst period. Pld's, conversely, can rock a single Cover and DV every 120 seconds (for a duration of 12s or less, in the case of DV), and a Testudo every 150 seconds (20s duration). Even if they timed the perfectly, by some miracle, that defense can still be compromised by poor healing. Clemency can be used as a supplement, but it can only be used 3 times consecutively and takes a full 2 seconds to cast (during which time the burst may very well be over, since it is next to impossible to anticipate in advance unless you've got a stopwatch going). I'm not saying that they can't stretch that mitigation pretty far. They can, but there is no way in hell they can cover every burst that a War gets off, let alone an entire team's worth of bursts. After all, War is only ONE out of THREE potential targets who are bursting at any given time.
Another thing to consider is that every move a Pld uses is a double edged sword. Using it one way costs it's utility somewhere else. Stun locking potentially costs them the use of Cover, as they cannot follow a covered target and maintain their stuns at the same time. Their own dps (and yes, Pld's do, in fact, do at least a little dps) also takes a dive. Clemency is a 100% reduction in both CC and dps, as Pld's can't even move while using it. 100% is a pretty substantial trade off in any circumstances unless the CC timer is on reset. Testudo/DV can be used to save a target's life and cover a burst or LB, but doing that restricts it's usage during an assault, compromising their own teams kill efficiency. I could go into detail on this, but the short and simple of it is a difference between trying to help your team score a kill by giving them time to sustain their assault versus trying to help keep your team alive. There's a time and a place for both usages. Depending on the circumstances, one of those things will help win the match. The other will only delay the inevitable. Given that, to actually win a match, your team has to score kills, it's clear where the priorities should be, unless your team is already ahead in points. That fact alone is what makes Pld so dependent on good healing, because every defensive move they use to cover for a healer's shortcomings is costing their Dps team up-time. There's also a matter of efficiency, as saving the usage of any of those moves means less usages overall during the course of the match. There's only one way Pld's can actively make up that time on their own, and that's by using their stun rotation.
TL;DR: I could go on and on about this in more specific details, but in the end it really falls to party composition and coordination. The bottom line is that Pld's would be utterly crippled if they weren't able to work their stuns as fluidly as they can now; so, no. They absolutely, under no circumstances, should suffer a nerf just because healers find their stun rotation annoying. If SE ever did decide to nerf them, then they would most certainly have to buff Pld in some other area (likely dps) to compensate. -
06-06-2016, 06:08 PMSlyqc
The Bards buff was for PvE and not PvP, I think they might,ve just forgot about PvP when they decided to buff bard. Still considering MCH ability to burst even if Bard still got a pretty good burst combo (Barrage empy + Sidewinder + Farshot + Bloodletter + Misery end), MCH was still able to pull a pretty huge burst himself, in the end I guess that 4,5% buff on his burst (Empy + Sidewinder) will probably get them on par.
The problem might come from the blunt arrow, that +60 potency is going to be really good in PvE but might become a bit strong in PvP. -
06-06-2016, 06:38 PMExiraWAR might as well be the only viable tank... I suppose I may have misinterpreted your past post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
A single Fell Cleave is not considered Burst, and double cleave outside of berserk is low level burst. Triple Fell Cleave isn't 3 back to back Fell Cleaves. Infuriate: 60s CD. Stun DR: 60s Blind DR: 60s. Other cdsQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Use an internal stopwatch and single-target heals base cast time is 2s.
Please go in more depth.Quote:
15 Fell Cleaves within their full burst period.
I suppose I worded this incorrectly. PLD has the means to mitigate/disrupt/unsync/resist/heal/assist/negate/shutdown/re-direct majority opposing burst.Quote:
PLD can answer every burst
Their covered target can also follow/be nearby them instead. As a healer, I stay somewhat close to my PLD less they're in the enemy base. I'm also assuming the stun locking is going off on the opposing healer, correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
PLD's low damage is mainly just support damage, almost negligible unless assisting burst.
This applies to both teams, so preventing the other team from killing is just as viable. Making unhealable burst, healable is invaluably good.Quote:
Given that, to actually win a match, your team has to score kills
We both agree that no further changes should be done to PLD/WAR. We just disagree on their strengths and applications, I suppose. -
06-07-2016, 12:34 AMKittenJitsu
I still hold strong that SE needs to re-make DK resources. They have all the right skills, but changing their resource management would be a huge stride in the right direction.
This is why i propose that SE changes DK's resource management from MP to Darkness. (A lot like rage or energy) DK's use abilities that build darkness and allow them to enter Darkside. In Darkside Dk's are given abilities to wreck big damage like Warriors Fell Cleave or whatnot. This is how I thought it would originally work, but instead we get this bull crap MP resource like everyone else. It is terrible and needs to change.
As of right now, DK's are in a weird spot. I hope they change the classes mechanic because I really want to love this class. -
06-07-2016, 04:21 AMFebrusSigh ... You need to go back and read where this conversation started, because I was not originally discussing this topic with you, and you've clearly forgotten the suggestion that I was originally posting against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
When I said that War might as well be the only viable option in this game, I was addressing (and opposing) Nessa's suggestion of nerfing Pld stuns. I stand by that. If you take away Pld's stun potential, then, no matter how good their defensive CDs are, War would be the only viable tank in PvP. Period. As things are now, however, both Pld and War are viable; though, War is easier to use and requires far less party proficiency to use ... Drk's, on the other hand, can just go sit in a corner until SE figures out how to change something meaningful to that job.
That's cute, but no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
burst damage is exactly how it sounds: it's a burst in damage. Any increase over the average threshold is a bust, no matter how small. There is not magical damage threshold that needs to be met for it to be considered a burst. It just has to be a sudden increase. If this weren't the case, then certain jobs wouldn't even be considered to have a burst at all (Pld, for example ... and before you ask, yes they do. They just don't use it). Fell Cleave is a sudden increase in dps at a potency of 500 every 12-ish seconds. Considering that a single Fell Cleave can Crit for higher dmg then a full Storm's Eye combo, then yes. It is a burst, a small burst, sure, but it is still a burst.
That burst is also pretty damn fast if done correctly. Firstly, two of those Fell Cleaves are back to back, every time, without exception. Infuriate guarantees that. Secondly, if you know how to use your CD's effectively, then the third Fell Cleave is only delayed by roughly 5 seconds behind or in advance of your double burst. That means that, at best, a Pld can only mitigate ONE out of three Fell Cleaves, even with spot on timing. Most War's prefer to stack their double Fell Cleave at the end of the combo for this exact reason, so to ensure that they kill faster than the dmg can be healed. This isn't exactly a trade secret of the job. There's a couple of different ways to go about it as well, including pre-prepping your first burst with an early burn of Infuriate to reduce the total duration.
It took me a minute to figure out what you were confused about, but I think you're misunderstanding what I was getting at based on my wording. So, that's my mistake. It would probably make more sense to you if I said you get 15 Fell Cleaves in the cool down period, while you're waiting for the 120s cooldown to come back around. Even then, I might be being a bit too generous considering the average War Skill Speed is typically slower than Pld.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Regardless, finishing a full burst (triple Fell Cleave), a war can continue building stacks using regular combos. Sticking with they overly slow 2.5 second GCD, War's would build 5 stacks in about 16 seconds (that's overkill, but whatever). It takes 60s for Infuriate to come back around on CD. During that time, they can output ~4 Fell Cleaves. Then they get a double Fell Cleave which puts them plus 1. Berserk is only on a 30s CD, so a good War can typically push this to +2 Fell Cleaves in this time, where the final 2 are buffed. That's 5-6 Fell Cleaves within one Infuriate CD timer. It takes another 60 second for both Infuriate and Raw Intuition (Berserk will also prep halfway through). Without any bonus stacks in that time, you're looking at another ~4 Fell Cleaves, where the fourth is leading into another double. At the slowest possible skill speed for a Tank at lvl 60, that's a minimum of 12 Fell Cleaves during the full CD timer of War's longest wrath/abandon granting cooldown.
Sorry about that, though. Looking back at it, I can see why my wording would have made that very misleading. It probably sounded as though I was saying they'd get 15 Fell Cleaves within their actual burst window, which is only about 20s long. Not what I intended.
Not always, no. Majority of the time, a Pld will only use their full stun rotation on a healer, because it maximizes the Dps uptime. However, it can be used to completely nullify a dps burst window or prevent a target from fleeing in the event they are being pressured. To use their stuns to their maximum effect, Plds have to remain as mobile as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
I have to admit, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside when I see a healer like yourself stand close to me when I've executed Cover. In a perfect world, all players (dps included) would act in a similar fashion ... Unfortunately (and I think you can see where I'm gonna go with this) it's not a perfect world. Most teammates run around like mindless chickens when under Cover, often going straight to the healer, as if proximity somehow effects heal potency ... I have spent a lot of time chasing my teammates around the map (healers included) trying to save them from their own stupidity.
Further, Pld's dps may be for support, but it's still has value. The amount they provide is tiny compared to dps, but that tiny increase can make or break a kill. Not having it makes a surprising difference to the end game results, especially if the dps are lacking just a little bit. You should also keep in mind that a Pld's personal Dps, interruptions and damage intake contributes to their Adrenaline Bar. Meaning they can actively restrict their party defense by disengaging from the enemy.
We definitely disagree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
The only time playing defensively is the viable choice over playing offensively is if you're already ahead in points. If both teams have an equal score, then the most a Pld can do by playing defensively is put off the inevitable loss, or, maybe, push the match to a draw. The reason for this is that, regardless of how good Pld's defensive CD's are, no Pld can keep up the party defense for the entire match. The long CD timers ensure that there are always gaps. Playing defense might make killing your team harder, but, eventually, the enemy will exploit one of those gaps and score a kill, especially if the healer isn't on the ball or simply starts to drain mp.
I don't know about you, but I want to win my matches. Winning requires killing. Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate those kills. It can be used for pure defense, but using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead. Once you're in the lead, however, you can feel free to fall back and wait it out ... though that's still a gamble, as more limit breaks become available the longer the match goes on, and Pld's cannot possibly cover all of them. -
06-07-2016, 04:28 AMkisada
februs has it right. especially the last part.
there's no such thing as completely preventing kills from happening if both teams are playing optimally. smart players play around defensive cd's and execute properly. and LB's are a natural doom counter for death. -
06-07-2016, 04:40 AMXenosan
IMO PLD is good because they're the only job still prioritizing CC, even moderately. Battle high/fever, Adrenaline Rush, HW level cap, free-sprint, CC nerfs. It's probably just personal bias, but they've been moving away from CC focus since Frontlines Slaughter, and I wish they'd just stop it. I miss the days when coordinated CC more important than burst, (due to as much as a single Faerie heal was enough to throw a wrench in burst achieving a kill) but for the reasons listed and others too I suppose they are just not interested in that anymore, and are giving too many incentives to zerg instead of wage the war of attrition.
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06-07-2016, 05:54 AMExiraQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
You're hopeless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Also. Berserk CD: 90s. Raw Intuition: 90s
Why cover if you are nullifying burst? (Referring to double edged sword utility.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Players running from Cover is just like really bad players, they're just hopeless at that point. I wouldn't base your own power over others stupidity. lol
Yes, we can agree that PLD has support damage.
Being able to fluidly switch between offense/defense mid-combat is part of PvP. Preventing deaths while your team is pressuring with offense is excellent. DPS burst is more than enough to kill someone, especially when synced together, and the Melees(and MCH) can stun for themselves. Reducing the other teams offense (mitigating their burst period [usually buffs]) allows your DPS/Healer to live longer, prolonging your offensive push/getting kills. When a DPS dies, a huge chunk of offensive pressure is lost. When a Healer dies, more likely than not, you have to retreat less you risk the two dps dying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I can't even.Quote:
Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate those kills. It can be used for pure defense, but using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead.
Oh I missed the part in my post where I said every death can be prevented. My B.Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada
Smart PLD's react to buffs/position and don't prematurely pop cds for hopes that the opposing team doesn't notice. -
06-07-2016, 05:08 PMFebrusErr ... Sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Ah, my mistake. I confused one timer and mixed up Raw Intuition with Vengeance. Good thing that changes absolutely nothing about the War Burst rotation. It still works out exactly the way I said it does, with Berserk-prepped double Fell Cleaves followed by Berserk-prepped Triple Fell Cleaves every 120 seconds. No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of Fell Cleaves, and Pld cannot mitigate all of them, let alone the actual Dps bursts on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Three reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
- 1) Cover does not work on magic damage. Just because you are covered, does not mean you are safe. Blm's, Smn's, Drks, Dps Limit Breaks, and any hyper aggressive Healers can still murder a covered target. The only way to stop this is with stuns.
- 2) A Pld cannot effectively stun lock more than one target at a time. After the initial stun (4s), the diminished stun duration of the next immediate stun is roughly the same amount of time as a Pld's GCD (2s). This means that, after their initial stun, a Pld MUST prioritize ONE target, otherwise they will lose both.
- 3) To prioritize kills. Again, this follows the "I want to win" perspective of things, but Plds, like healers, have to prioritize targets. Not everyone's life is equal in the Feast. Say, for example, that my dps team is a hair's breadth away from murdering a target with 200 medals, but one of them is also about to die with 100 medals or less. I will prioritize assisting the kill even if it means letting one of my own dps die. Why? Because I'll still be up 100 medals on the enemy team. Assisting in that kill often means stunning the target, or stunning the healer (if they're not up for CC resist).
The short and ugly of this is that, even as a Pld, I cannot save everyone from death. My defensive CD's and CC just don't stretch that far. That's a fact. That said, I really don't have to save everyone as long as we are leading in points. The logic here is that, so long as you are gaining more medals than you are losing, you will win. With that in mind, the kill credit should always be prioritized over defense, unless you stand to lose more than you gain.
The most polite way I could think of to say this is that at least you got part of this right ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
A dps burst very strong. That's true, but that doesn't mean that they can score kills purely on their own, nor should they have to. By going purely defensive, a Pld is resigning 100% of the offensive work on the Dps. I really shouldn't have to say anything about why that is just plain bad, but expecting the Dps to do 100% of the offensive work without support not only puts a lot of undue responsibility on their shoulders, but it is also extremely optimistic of their capabilities. Further, Healers can, and often do, out-heal a Dps's maximum burst without the aid of extra defense. How do I know this? Because a lot of teams run with Wars. Wars do next to nothing to boost party defense; yet, their healers can keep the team alive, no problem.
Another issue is that you are still, dramatically, misinterpreting Pld's CC and utilty. Case in point:
You're inexperience with Pld is really showing through here, because if you actually understood a Pld's CC you would never, EVER, recommend any other job to use their stun for CC purposes while they have a Pld on their team, unless they had absolutely no other choice. The reason for this is that Pld's stun lasts longer. Any stun used by ANY other job (melee, mch, or even whm) is wasted CC, especially on the first hit. If you hit my primary target with a stun before my first Shield Bash, you just shaved 2 seconds off of the time during which they are incapacitated. That's a 50% reduction. If you hit my target with a stun during my stun rotation, you run the risk of initiating their resist early by overriding my stuns, making my last hit useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
The only CC that should be used in conjunction with a Pld's stuns is a caster's sleeps, and even then, those sleeps should come before or after a Pld's full stun rotation, not during it. Otherwise, they stand to cause as much harm to their own CC as they do to mine.
Another thing was this:
And yet, in the same breath you also said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
I ask you, what exactly do you think I meant when I said that "Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate kills" and that "using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead"? Further, what do you think your advocating for with the above comment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Using Pld's defensive CD's to sustain dps offense is EXACTLY what I meant when I said that their kit is designed to facilitate kills. It allows the Dps to push harder and longer. Using stuns effectively only makes scoring kills that much easier. The fact that Pld's party mitigation buffs are passive only strengthens this point, because passive mitigation does not actually prevent deaths. It only prolongs life (and yes, there is a difference). Without active mitigation (ie: healing), the target can and will die. So, again, reserving Pld's CD's for purely defensive utility is a waste.
And before you ask, playing defensively is TOTALLY different. You would know this if you had more experience with the job. There is a difference between burning Testudo to sustain an assault versus burning it to cover a retreat, for example. A Pld cannot use it for both. The CD is too long. So they have to chose what the best use is. The same goes for their use of Cover and their stuns. There is a huge difference between using them to try and support the healer versus trying to support the dps. That difference dictates the flow of battle. You can either spend that buff time pressuring the enemy, or you can spend it being willfully pressured by them. Choosing to play defensively is fine if you're already in the lead and are willing to play ring around the rosie at home base for the last 2 or 3 minutes, but if you're evenly matched or losing, you won't be doing your team any favours by using your CD's in such a manner.
If you want to see this difference first hand, then I would recommend you finish leveling your Pld and give it a roll in Feast. You'll see that things don't work out the way you seem to think they do. - 1) Cover does not work on magic damage. Just because you are covered, does not mean you are safe. Blm's, Smn's, Drks, Dps Limit Breaks, and any hyper aggressive Healers can still murder a covered target. The only way to stop this is with stuns.
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06-12-2016, 04:07 AMExiraThe fact that you believe that a buff that increases a WAR's attack power by 50% being on a 30s cd vs 90s cd makse no difference to WAR burst is mind boggling. The idea behind, "Any increase over the average threshold is a bust, no matter how small." is suspect as well. A Ninja using Jugulate must be considered burst from that perspective. Fell Cleave is part of the Warrior basic rotation, and an unberserked , no follow-up, solo Fell Cleave is not worth mitigating for obvious reasons. Its equivalent to trying to mitigate a DRG's every raw Full Thrust. No one is trying to mitigate solo, single Fell Cleaves, just waste of utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
1) The point is, if the burst is already being stopped/mitigated/delayed/peeled, there is no reason to cover in that time frame. It's common knowledge that Cover doesn't work on Magic. smhQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
2) However, a PLD can effectively peel with their stuns, which is another benefit of stunning pursuers.
3) It's refreshing to know that you are aware of an aspect of the Feast. Although, if like you said, CC is being resisted, and you have within your power to save your DPS (ensuring the death of a target) of meaningful 100 medals, it's worth, considering an alive DPS does more damage than a PLD.
As already confirmed of said knowledge in my past post.Quote:
The short and ugly of this is that, even as a Pld, I cannot save everyone from death. My defensive CD's and CC just don't stretch that far. That's a fact. That said, I really don't have to save everyone as long as we are leading in points. The logic here is that, so long as you are gaining more medals than you are losing, you will win. With that in mind, the kill credit should always be prioritized over defense, unless you stand to lose more than you gain.
More Basic Knowledge of Feast.
A DPS can score kills entirely on their own, that is a FACT. You may not be able to, or you may think those that do are hacking. Yet, time and again it is happening. Solo killing targets is how us DPS climb. The fact that DPS aren't known to solo kill is just bad. DPS don't depend on low-tier PLD's to logically stun healers, since more often than not, low gold or lower tier PLD's have the healer on Stun DR before the actual fight even begins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Being as though your rank is shrouded by obscurity, I'm assuming you are often paired with awful DPS who can't burst well. You seem to have low-expectations of a dps, and high-expectations of healers. I have a strong feeling that you are not aware of what the maximum burst potential for a particular DPS is. In the instance in which the healer had no issue healing a maximum burst, the assumption that the DPS were bad probably never crossed your mind.
Also, no one said anything about going 100% defense as PLD, I said switching between offense/defense, stop twisting my words.
Funny, because I'm 100% positive that my experience with and against PLDs far outweighs yours by MILES. You seem to have briefly forgotten that PLD's stun is limited by their GCD. In which case, stunning a Good Healer means an instant Purify if an opposing PLD is nearby with his DPS, thus making that first 4 second stun moot and leaving PLD to wait on their GCD for the follow-up. A monk doing the first (3s) stun baiting a purify allows the PLD to follow up with an immediate stun successfully locking-up for the kill on the healer. Also, Good DPS don't require 7s of a stun to kill a target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
As said by you, PLD's can't be everywhere at once or lock down multiple players for long at once ("otherwise they will lose both"), so peeling with a stun is not wasted CC. MNK/MCH (aoe stun)/ and even WHM have 3s stuns. Thus making your claim of 50% reduction flawed. Before you further misconstrue my words , stunning a healer is not the same as peeling a dps/tank.
By that logic, Healer's entire kit must be "designed to facilitate kills" because they allow you to keep your offensive push as well. Hence, the generalization of such a vague comment can be applied to a multitude of jobs, in such, requiring a better statement to describe PLD in its entirety. The act of stunning dps/tanks, flashing, clemency-ing teammates, and covering are all DEFENSIVE actions that should not only be used in your only forms of defense, Turtling and Retreating. Passive mitigation does save live's such as making normally unhealable burst, healable. Cover saves lives all of the time. Much like in real life, death is inescapable, but lives are saved everyday. Was not aware I had to make that clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Clemency. Also, your assumptions on what I am actually saying is so flawed. Never did I say PLD's CD should be reserved for Turtling/Retreating.Quote:
Without active mitigation (ie: healing), the target can and will die. So, again, reserving Pld's CD's for purely defensive utility is a waste.
Again, the experience I have with said job goes leaps-and-bounds. At this point you're giving me the impression you are just throwing out Testudo without taking into consideration CDs being used, or CDs already used. Your use of Cover and stuns is sounding suspect as well. Majority of PvP is play-by-ear since this isn't PvE, and players don't do the same thing every game. As a PLD, react to the ever-changing flow of combat, and adjust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I recommend that you get your facts in order before claiming someone hasn't played as or with a PLD.
Alt meet Presumption, Presumption meet Alt.
Alas, I'm bored of these walls of text. I must refrain from corroding intellect by seizing to entertain those that may be mistaken for simple-mindedness.
I take my leave from this pointless discussion. -
06-13-2016, 03:47 AMFebrusI'm really starting to wonder if it's even worth responding to you at this point, because you genuinely seem to be beyond help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Firstly, I never said that Berserk made no difference to War's burst. You want to talk about twisting words around? This was a nice job right here. What I actually said, if you had cared to read it, was that the timer being 90s doesn't change their burst rotation ... Because it doesn't. Even on a 90s timer, War's can still prep both their double and triple Fell Cleave. Short of writing out their full rotation, I'm not sure how I could possibly make this simpler to understand. This isn't rocket science, so I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.
It's comments exactly like this one that make me question your experience. You say that you know that Cover doesn't work on magic damage, yet you don't see the benefit to splitting a Cover and stun? Seriously??Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
Here's some simple groundwork for you: 1) You cannot completely stop a burst. All offensive buff timers last longer than the maximum CC. So, the best you can hope for is to delay and mitigate. 2) A Pld cannot efficiently stun multiple targets at once. I don't know why you're asking me to repeat this, because it couldn't be more simple. Even at max duration, a 4s stun is not long enough to stop a target from pursuing a party member, especially if they use purify. It also takes 6 seconds to spread enough stuns to allow a target to successfully escape. If there's only one target chasing, then a stun is fine, but if the entire dps force of an enemy team is chasing, then stuns are not enough to allow your target to Peel. Lastly, peeling is typically a stupid thing to do, and it IS ESPECIALLY USELESS SO LONG AS THE HEALER IS STILL BEING INTERRUPTED/PESTERED. You can peel as hard and far as you want, but that player will still die if the healer's cast bar is being interrupted or they're too preoccupied trying not to die themselves. Cover prevents physical dmg on the healer, but it does jack shit for casters. So, why use stun while the target is being covered? Because it's the only way to allow your healer to cast freely without being chased around the map. They can't heal someone else if they're spending all their time healing themselves. I really can't comprehend how someone with "miles" of Pld experience doesn't grasp that.
Oh, you have me there. I do have extremely low expectations for dps ... but you're completely wrong as to why. I know exactly what a Dps burst is capable of. I also know what a good healer is capable of. I expect neither when I'm queuing in solo-queue Feast, because Feast queues are random. Rank has nothing to do with it either. Some of the best Dps numbers I've seen were by Bronze ranked players, and some of the worst I've seen were in Gold. it's just the luck of the draw. If I expect every Dps player that I see in Feast to be excellent at their burst rotation, I'd be disappointed nine out of ten times. So, I typically take the attitude of "hope for the best; expect the worst," when queuing for Solo-Feast. Unless I recognize the names of the people I'm playing with, I assume everyone is mediocre until they can prove otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
That really is funny, because you're still spouting a bunch of misinformed nonsense. I'm also assuming that your "miles" of experience are on a different avatar then? Because the character you're posting with doesn't even have a Pld at 60. You can see why that might be grounds for confusion. Regardless, it's hard to take you seriously when you make bizarre comments like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
What in the world are you even talking about here?? There is literally NO PURPOSE to having a mnk initiate the stun unless you want to waste time that they could be using building their burst. Even if the healer purifies the first stun of a Pld on the first second, a Pld's GCD at that level is only 2s. The second stun will be off before they can so much as start a cast of cure. You're not waiting on anything, and even if you were, for some bizarre reason, Spirit's Within is a oGCD that can easily cover that time in the push of a button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
That's even assuming that the Healer purifies the stun in the first place, which also assumes that 1) they even have Purify up on CD at the time, and 2) they have the mind to use it. Surprisingly, a lot of them don't. They'll purify a sleep on the spot, but often they just ride the stun out. If they don't, or can't, use purify then they have to rely on their teammates to purify it for them. That happens next to never, so why waste time assuming it will? Even in the worst case scenario, if the healer does purify the first stun, you're not losing any more or less time if that stun was a Pld's or a Mnk's. That said, if they don't purify the stun then you just guaranteed a loss of at least 1s by planning for something that 1) might not happen in the first place, and 2) the Pld does not need help with. The fact that you could even suggest this, instead of just allowing the mnk to focus on their actual job (killing people as fast as possible) is mind numbing.
It is. The point of any competition is to win, not to drag it out into a draw. Healers keep the team alive to prevent a loss of points, that's true, but if that is literally ALL you are doing, then you will never win the match. Again, if you don't comprehend this simple fact, then I can't help you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
I'm not even gonna bother with this one. The idea of using a 2 second cast with a non-scaled potency during a Dps push in a party composition where you already have a healer is so asinine that I don't think it needs to be addressed. Clemency is a last ditch heal only, reserved for when there is no other choice. Using it in any other capacity is a waste of time and Mp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
At this point you've said more than enough to all but prove the exact opposite. Your limited and dramatically misinformed opinions about how Pld's utility should be handled has said it all. I stick by my first assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exira
If there's one thing I can agree with you on, it's that this discussion is pointless, because you're beyond reason. I've laid out the facts for you. Take what you want from them, or (more likely) take nothing at all. Feel free to rage away at my loss of patience and lack of tact as well. I don't care at this point. It literally hurts my brain to read some of this nonsense, so I'm just going to ignore anything further you have to say on the subject and assume that it's just as empty and baseless as the rest of it. Good luck to you in the next season of Feast, especially if you're playing as Pld. -
06-13-2016, 04:05 AMkisada
exira how many games of feast do you have logged on pld? solo and/or party
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06-13-2016, 04:21 AMDimitrii
Hopefully both just let the argument die already since they have each said they won't respond any further. It's clear neither will agree on anything with one another and it just seems to have devolved into a contest of who can show up the other (which is a shame given they do have legitimate points but given the length and undertones of the posts most people probably won't even bother to read the full posts). Not that it wasn't amusing lol.
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06-13-2016, 07:48 AMAtreusWell, when you start with posts like...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
and,Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
... then stuff like this is sort of inevitable lol. Not the first time it's happened here, certainly won't be the last. That being said Exira has the right of it. Without wasting time picking at quotes, PLD does very much have an answer to every burst. Whether your healer responds to the openings you give is irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs