Wanderer's Minuet Help

Just got WM on my Bard, and it is...jarring, as I read it would be. My timing for keeping dots and straight shot up feels really off.

My question is how and when should I be using WM? I'm reading a lot of conflicting information. Some people say all the time, some people say use for AOE only otherwise its not worth it- and most of the guides I am finding are over a year old, I have no idea what has since changed.

Thanks!

All the time... when you get to 60 at least. Don't worry about it too much before then, but I'd use it (if only to practice with it). Since I lvled Bard before the potency changes (AKA right as HW was released...) I can't give you much info there but I did keep it on pretty much all the time after I got Empyreal Arrow.
It's DEFINITELY worth it; people just don't want to use it and thus claim it's useless.

I have to disagree slightly. WM is good to have up MOST of the time, but not all the time. There are bosses that require too much movement to keep WM up. The casting timer can be ridiculous at times and constantly interrupting it in order to not take damage in these cases more than negates the benefits of having it on. Other than those instances, though, yes...keep it on.

As for maintaining your DOTs when Venomous Bite or Windbite (whichever you cast first) reaches about 4 seconds left, use Iron Jaws as it resets the timer on both of those DOTs. I normally have to pay attention to Straight Shot once and that's at the beginning of my rotation. I normally have the critical marker pop up before it falls off which also resets the timer once used.

Other than these things, every thing else like Blood For Blood, Barrage, Raging Strikes, etc. (essentially all of the OGCDs) should be reused once the cooldown is finished. Just be sure to pay attention to VB/W for IF and your SS timer.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

I have to disagree slightly. WM is good to have up MOST of the time, but not all the time. There are bosses that require too much movement to keep WM up. The casting timer can be ridiculous at times and constantly interrupting it in order to not take damage in these cases more than negates the benefits of having it on. Other than those instances, though, yes...keep it on.

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Which encounters make you feel this way?

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Which encounters make you feel this way?

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I can't recall off of the top of my head. I normally keep it on until I feel bogged down with movements interrupting my casting. Then I'll turn it off for the fight and back on afterward.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

I can't recall off of the top of my head. I normally keep it on until I feel bogged down with movements interrupting my casting. Then I'll turn it off for the fight and back on afterward.

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I can understand how getting a feel for an encounter might make you feel that way. The best thing to do is practice optimizing movement and character placement. You'll get more comfortable with each encounter with time and the more you can keep WM on and turret, the more damage you will do :)

Empyreal Arrow (52) and Iron Jaws (56) make using WM a blast!

Barrage + Empyreal Arrow is tons of damage! :)

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Originally Posted by Tango185

I have to disagree slightly. WM is good to have up MOST of the time, but not all the time. There are bosses that require too much movement to keep WM up.

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There have been a few fights where, in the beginning, yes, I did turn it off (while learning the fight).... the Arboretum comes to mind. That's nuts at first.
Though over time and after learning the fight, I find that I don't need to go out of WM.

Right now there are none I can think of... even Titan undersized or something (I was sort of surprised about that too....maybe my hatred won out).

Also Feint is great. If I think I'm only gonna move for maybe one, two GCDs, I'll use Feint instead of going out of WM.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

There are bosses that require too much movement to keep WM up.

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There are not; the key is to learn the movement timing that allows you to move during the end of a cast.

If Wanderer's Minuet makes you feel like you're moving any less than you were pre-52, you were habitually overmoving this whole time.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Which encounters make you feel this way?

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A7S ball phases (unless you have really mastered the marine walk) and Merry go-round (unless ur team gives u the BLM turret spot)

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

A7S ball phases (unless you have really mastered the marine walk) and Merry go-round (unless ur team gives u the BLM turret spot)

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Right, but the original statement was about turning it off for the whole encounter, not just particular phases. Although, that could be something to consider for sure.

Tango: If you think there is encounters that exist too much movement and cast times are bad on Bard, well blm would like a talking with you.
There is the small % of time i think turning off wm would be fine but it should be up most of the time

Why don't we try this as a solution: IT'S A ROLE-PLAYING GAME!!! Play how you want to play. If you like having WM on all the time, do it. If you don't, don't do it. This game has honestly turned into a massive group of elitists who refuse to accept any difference in play styles.

I don't HAVE to have WM on ALL THE TIME. It's my choice. I don't appreciate being told or having it implied that I'm doing something wrong just because I don't feel like conforming to everybody else's expectations.

I paid to buy the game and I still pay to play the game so I'll play how I'd like. If you have a problem with that, please send me $15/mo for the subscription charges and I'll play how you want me to.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

Why don't we try this as a solution: IT'S A ROLE-PLAYING GAME!!! Play how you want to play. If you like having WM on all the time, do it. If you don't, don't do it. This game has honestly turned into a massive group of elitists who refuse to accept any difference in play styles.

I don't HAVE to have WM on ALL THE TIME. It's my choice. I don't appreciate being told or having it implied that I'm doing something wrong just because I don't feel like conforming to everybody else's expectations.

I paid to buy the game and I still pay to play the game so I'll play how I'd like. If you have a problem with that, please send me $15/mo for the subscription charges and I'll play how you want me to.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.

/endthread

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Originally Posted by Tango185

I paid to buy the game and I still pay to play the game so I'll play how I'd like. If you have a problem with that, please send me $15/mo for the subscription charges and I'll play how you want me to.

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Well no of course you don't HAVE TO play like someone else wants you to, but one- the OP asked and two- you aren't playing to your full potential, and seeing others not try makes me sad. I'm not one to auto kick people from a party if they don't play like I want to, that's absurd, but really.... if you can use it just fine and you choose not to why are you holding yourself back? You should try to always play to your best ability, for your sake and your party's.

You're paying, yes, but so is the rest of the party. This isn't a solo game.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

Why don't we try this as a solution: IT'S A ROLE-PLAYING GAME!!! Play how you want to play. If you like having WM on all the time, do it. If you don't, don't do it. This game has honestly turned into a massive group of elitists who refuse to accept any difference in play styles.

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It seems as though my offers of encouragement and potentially specific advice hit a nerve. For that I'm sincerely sorry. That said, it is your decision to improve or not improve. I promise you will get used to keeping WM on more and more the more you practice. But why would you recommend to a player who wants to improve and is asking for help with using WM to forgo using entirely on entire encounters? No matter how you slice it, the truth is when you drop WM you are doing less damage, so advising to keep it off is simply bad advice. Better to say "if you feel overwhelmed, turn it off for a bit but don't forget to turn it back on and continue working at it."

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

You're paying, yes, but so is the rest of the party. This isn't a solo game.

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Right, but I'm not saying anybody HAS to play a certain way. Convenience shouldn't force requirement. Maybe I like moving b/c I find it boring to be standing in one place the whole time. Why should it matter if I use WM or not? If we're not KO'ing it shouldn't matter.

Like I initially stated, I usually have it up unless I have trouble with interruptions. I understand the extra DMG having it on. I understand that EA and IJ are useful skills but need WM on. I get it. But I HAVE been kicked from a duty for not having WM on and it didn't make sense to me. We weren't KO'ing and we weren't taking forever clearing. But halfway through the duty I was kicked. That kind of toxicity is not needed in the community.

In the rare instances I turn off WM it shouldn't matter if it isn't causing significant trouble to the party.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

But why would you recommend to a player who wants to improve and is asking for help with using WM to forgo using entirely on entire encounters?"

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I never said that. OP was already told by some to have it on ALL the time. Since they're new using it I felt the need to explain that there are instances where it may hurt. Yes, I should have included that it's a developmental issue and will be fixed with practice. But I wasn't wrong in what I said. Every class and skill has a learning curve and not everybody picks things up at the same speed.

For me, this is my first MMORPG. I main BRD and I learned quickly everything I needed to but I also learned it all in ARR where I was able to move around without issue. I'm not used to standing still so WM messed me up. I AM still learning to use and get used to WM.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

Snip.

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You forgot that this is a MMORPG. While you might think it isn't a huge difference other players might not like the run taking 10 extra minutes because someone refuses to play the class like it's intended by SE. Just like in real life, if people don't like the way you are and you refuse to change they are going to leave you. No one expects you to perform at the top percentile, unless you're going for world first. They expect you to perform as good as the game intended. WB is an intended mechanic for the class BRD, which is why it was given additional skills that makes it more or less obligatory.

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Originally Posted by Oohlalaheals

My question is how and when should I be using WM? I'm reading a lot of conflicting information. Some people say all the time, some people say use for AOE only otherwise its not worth it- and most of the guides I am finding are over a year old, I have no idea what has since changed.

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What has changed in the last year is they fixed WM by significantly reducing the cast time from when it first came out.
Additionally, IMO, do not bother with WM until you get Iron Jaws at 56. From 56 onward, WM is definitely worth it.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

Just like in real life, if people don't like the way you are and you refuse to change they are going to leave you.

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In real life reasonable people understand that everybody is unique and bring unique qualities and traits into any situation. They don't expect everybody to be a cookie cutter replica of how things were "intended". If that were the case then everybody would be 100% identical and life would be boring.

http://en.spongepedia.org/images/3/3d/Normal.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tango185

In real life reasonable people understand that everybody is unique and bring unique qualities and traits into any situation. They don't expect everybody to be a cookie cutter replica of how things were "intended". If that were the case then everybody would be 100% identical and life would be boring.

http://en.spongepedia.org/images/3/3d/Normal.jpg

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Uniqueness can both be positive and negative, but performing less than intended is negative. Nin wasn't played like SE was intended, people were outperforming what SE intended which was why they had to nerf it, that is positive. In real life it would be the difference between a group of people wanting to aim for a mid level grade, they wouldn't pick up someone that barely wants to pass.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

they wouldn't pick up someone that barely wants to pass.

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Who said I barely want to pass? You're the epitome of the toxicity that plagues the gaming community. You assume my wanting to have fun playing a game means that I barely want to pass? There shouldn't be anything wrong with wanting to have fun. I'm not intentionally trying to ruin anybody else's time, I'm just trying to enjoy my own and I'm getting grief for it.

Like I previously said, this is my first MMORPG. I've only played for about a year. I don't have the years of experience with these types of games as others have. I didn't play EQ or WOW or anything of the sort. I'm learning as fast as I can and trying to contribute the best I can given certain circumstances. Sometimes those circumstances are feeling the need to move around more often than WM makes me comfortable with. I'm still trying so give me a dang break. Being a jerk to players not as advanced as you is not needed.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

Snip

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I never said that you didn't, I commented on the "I pay so I play how I want", the majority of players with this view perform significanlty worse, most barely pass what people were doing at level 50. I'm not going to kick someone for not performing optimally, actually I would provide them with tips on how to improve, however I would kick someone for refusing to improve when they are doing awful.

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Originally Posted by Tango185

Sometimes those circumstances are feeling the need to move around more often than WM makes me comfortable with. I'm still trying so give me a dang break. Being a jerk to players not as advanced as you is not needed.

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If your problem is movement, then try...not moving (just hear me out).
Sometimes, I, too, also ran around like a headless chicken while playing Bard. Is this good? No, especially if you haven't locked onto the target; if you move and you aren't facing the enemy, your auto attacks do not hit (non WM obviously). So, too much movement is a problem BEFORE WM. Honestly you do NOT need to move so much as a bard (unless you've been tasked with something like kiting an enemy of course, but I'm talking about normal fighting). Everytime I see one of those bards I want to grab their shoulders and go "Sit. Still."

Of course you aren't born great at a game or a specific class. If people fault you for learning, then ignore them. But learning also means going out of your comfort zone. I died tons of times getting used to WM. "Oops cant stand there" or "gotta start stutter casting sooner, welp" or even "man I haven't actually shot off a skill in like ten seconds because this bullshit is chasing me. should i undo WM? or- (insert more overthinking)" or my favorite "sorry guys my laptop is such a piece of shit I can't get out of AOEs in time" (thankfully my new computer fixed that one...cough). Sometimes I still Repel Shot off a ledge.

This isn't my first MMO but it is my first MMO where I truly played with other people. It's a good "first" MMO. If you don't have a set group to run with you WILL run into jerks, it's inevitable. If they hate you for """slowing a run""" then so be it. Really, if you've been max level now for a few months, you should have basic dungeon runs and most content down with having Minuet up all the time. I know having fun is a big part of it, but don't you want to have fun AND better yourself as a player? If you're having trouble, then ask for help from other bards.

Sorry, guh, started rambling. There's no tldr for this.

Wanderer's Minuet should be up most of the time at level 60, however that is not because it is the best option for each GCD — it is simply because there is enough to be gained over the time you're locked into it for 15 seconds to make up for the lost auto-attacks over that duration. This will of course vary with interrupts that may occur due to necessary movement or damage taken. As such, it should not be applied with 15 seconds of any phase in which you are uncomfortable with or unable to sufficiently stutter-step, or have too few mobile GCD options (Straighter Shot and Feint, the latter a dps loss compared to dropping WM if no oGCDs are usable during that time), such as Sephirot Ex's blue pillar phase.

Even at level 60 it is a (temporary) DPS loss if you have no attacks available over the GCD (including oGCD abilities and the weaponskills both) that would gain at least 83 potency from the 30% damage bonus, essentially the amount of average AA damage lost during that time due to WM.

Actual AA damage will be a bit more complicated, as it occurs periodically rather than as a stream, of course, which means maximizing proximity to its particular nodes (such that you typically want to swap back into WM just after an AA). Your first AA should go off within a half second of entering combat or being able again to auto-attack (so, upon dropping WM), and then you will have another AA weapon speed interval before the next 33.3*seconds-delay potency hits. If you switch back to WM just before that second shot would go off, it is wasted. As such, keeping your weapon speed in mind can be beneficial in stance-dancing. Try to figure out how many GCDs + half-GCDs (oGCD animations, if you can double-weave) that would be.

So, over a particular GCD (the simplest way to look at it)
Windbite: 330 --> 429. 99 bonus. Worth it.
Venomous Bite: 310 --> 403. 93 bonus. Worth it.
Heavy Shot: 150 potency --> 195 with WM. 45 bonus. Not worth.

However, these need to be considered in terms of the damage that can be dealt over the GCD (or, better yet, over time). That means factoring in oGCDs as well:
Heavy Shot + Repelling Shot: 230 --> 299. 69 bonus. Almost worth.
Heavy Shot + Sidewinder: 450 --> 585. 135 bonus. Obviously worth.
Feint + Sidewinder: 420 --> 546. 126 bonus. Obviously worth.

Any time you're not using an oGCD during WM, you're essentially wasting 30% of its cooldown as far as damage over time goes.

As with everything, there may be situations in which it's worth it to do so. For instance, an 3.1-second auto attack at 103 potency could be worth more to try to fit within your CD window than a given Blunt Arrow. You might instead drop WM for a half-GCD (last shot was casted) only to fire the AA once and turn it back on, or because you only have HS and SS shots coming up and Bloodletter's being totally elusive, you might even pop Blunt Arrow while outside of WM, losing the 9s worth of its damage in favor of getting in more AAs until IJ or EA are ready to be used again, because there would be at least a few GCDs (almost the lost duration) before you'd be back in WM unless Bloodletter pops (the WM bonus of which is equal to an AA with Straight Shot, slightly better with Heavy Shot, and much better with any stronger weaponskill at the ready). Consider your chances on River of Blood (refreshed BL / RoD) procs, but be decisive rather than hesitant, especially if you're playing to your CDs.

The real bonuses to WM though are the unique abilities, Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaws. Whereas you want WM up for every Sidewinder, Flaming Arrow, Bloodletter, Rain of Death, Wide Volley/Quick Nock on more than 2 enemies, or pretty much any AoE or oGCD, you can't even use your two best weaponskills without WM.

Empyreal Arrow does 240 potency (312 in non-WM terms), but does it over a half-GCD, or if following a Straighter Shot or Feint (which have no cast time in WM) as an oGCD. (I'll let others cover how worth it it is to hold off on using EA in order to use it as a oGCD instead of a half-GCD. Just know that it's strong.)

Iron Jaws does 100 instant potency, same as Venomous Bite, but refreshes BOTH Windbite and Venomous Bite at once for a total of 580 potency (754 in non-WM terms), while freeing up an additional GCD, making a difference of yet another 50 or 90 potency by allowing a Heavy Shot in place of a Venomous Bite or Windbite refresh. It is in many ways the strongest weaponskill in the game.

WM must be up in time to refresh DoTs with Iron Jaws. Any exceptions to this rule are nearly inexistant and would require an earlier mistake. In some cases, you will even waste the extra Heavy Shot opportunity to refresh your DoTs regardless of their remaining duration to double-dip into your CDs (refreshing just after popping Raging Strikes, etc., and then again just before the CDs, and the DoTs, would fall off). And, of course you want to be hitting each EA as quickly as possible. As such, most WM weaves, if stance-dancing, will begin and end with an EA and/or IJ.


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Long, but I hope that'll be informative for you.

I actually did a macro for iron jaws.
/macroicon "iron jaws"
/ac "iron jaws"
<wait.14>
/e DOTS <se.7>

This way I hear a little ping (that only i can hear) at just the right time when it's time to use iron just again to refresh my bites.
It works for me because I don't have to pay as much attention to the timers.

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Originally Posted by nexas506

I actually did a macro for iron jaws.
/macroicon "iron jaws"
/ac "iron jaws"
<wait.14>
/e DOTS <se.7>

This way I hear a little ping (that only i can hear) at just the right time when it's time to use iron just again to refresh my bites.
It works for me because I don't have to pay as much attention to the timers.

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That's actually pretty brilliant. I'm stealing this. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

Which encounters make you feel this way?

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Sephirot Ex, 3rd phase -_- I toggled that off and on plenty during that part of the fight when it came out. Still maintained the dots, straight shot/heavyshot etc, but the gcd abilities may have had to wait until a mechanic that allowed me to switch modes.

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Originally Posted by LordPhantomhive

Sephirot Ex, 3rd phase -_- I toggled that off and on plenty during that part of the fight when it came out. Still maintained the dots, straight shot/heavyshot etc, but the gcd abilities may have had to wait until a mechanic that allowed me to switch modes.

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Off and on occasionally during an encounter is always acceptable. The player I was responding to advocated simply turning it off either for a whole encounter or for the remainder of the rest of an encounter.

If the encounter is an easy one with a large amount of movement required I will keep it off until there are large enough periods to be sure having it on wont become annoying to me. In those fights if someone whines about my not performing to the best of my ability, stressing myself out on what is essentially easy/casual content just because they want to shave thirty seconds, a minute, five minutes or ten minutes off the clear time then they can get stuffed. I am there for the clear and not for a speed run just because they lack patience and as long as it is not top tier content with extreme difficulty then I will go at an adequate speed but not stress myself out working my ass off just to shave a few minutes off the run.

If the fight is more difficult though it becomes more important to have it on as much as possible, more effort is required and so I do personally make sure to put forth such effort. I'm fine with WM on BRD, I prefer GB on MCH though (I only play BRD, MCH and MNK for DoW/DoM). My only complaint about MCH is mostly the annoying procs on main combo (slug, split and clean) instead of it being more stable and more reliable like MNK main combo, reload should be 'special ammo' and buff/debuff related like a manually turned on GL3 with GCD rather than proc related for example in my opinion. SE could adjust the potency's if such a change to the MCH main combo made it OP and I would be okay with them doing so as I would rather have more stability than being overly powerful.

On a side note I don't play BLM but I imagine enochian is similar to MCH wildfire burst which includes GB, in that with it you want to remain stationary as possible in order to push through as much of the skill rotation as can before wildfire ends. On BRD I don't feel like the same is required because their burst rotation is not such a big aspect of the class compared to wildfire and enochian, one of BRD's big aspects instead is the larger amount of DoT's rather than burst alone though they do have decent burst it doesn't feel the same as MCH or what I think BLM is like. I 'feel' like I still have more movement freedom on BRD even with WM than on my MCH in general but not by a huge amount, I imagine BLM is on par with MCH but much slightly worse than BRD movement wise if I was to guess.

You don't really need to activate your Wanderers minuet before lvl 56, you can use it for your opener, barrage empyreal arrow is pretty damn strong but it's both Iron Jaw and Empyreal Arrow that will make it that you just can't have it turned off.
But in the end, lvl 50-56 the DPS difference will not be too important, so like said previously you can start using it at lvl 54 (it's useless to use it before lvl 54) to start training to add empyreal arrow to your rotation.
Also if you're planning on mastering your bard you will need to level up your Dragoon to level 34, this way you will have Feint and Blood for Blood, both of these skills are a must for bards. Feint will give you the ability to keep doing some damage even while moving and casting GCD's. Blood for blood on the other hand will give you a 10% damage buff. (I don't really recommend it for PvP though as you will be taking 25% more damage.)

Just a quick rant, I got to lvl 53 yesterday and just discovered Wanderer's Minuet, and now I feel like I've wasted 1 month of my life playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Mephistobr

Just a quick rant, I got to lvl 53 yesterday and just discovered Wanderer's Minuet, and now I feel like I've wasted 1 month of my life playing this game.

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You're in luck. There is no reason to use it until 54 (Empyreal) outside of AoE spams.

It then remains marginal at best until getting Iron Jaws.

Still it's really sad, I even played a lot the free trial and decided to buy it because the archer class was everything I was looking for on an MMO and now I'm a caster, don't even feel like logging in right now. To make things worse I just bought the expansion 2 days ago on Steam and can't even refund.

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Originally Posted by Mephistobr

Still it's really sad, I even played a lot the free trial and decided to buy it because the archer class was everything I was looking for on an MMO and now I'm a caster, don't even feel like logging in right now. To make things worse I just bought the expansion 2 days ago on Steam and can't even refund.

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Don't really know what to tell you...sorry you feel that way.
You can still run and shoot if you really feel the need, you just have to learn to stutter step. Also, some other stuff I already mentioned in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Mephistobr

Still it's really sad, I even played a lot the free trial and decided to buy it because the archer class was everything I was looking for on an MMO and now I'm a caster, don't even feel like logging in right now. To make things worse I just bought the expansion 2 days ago on Steam and can't even refund.

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Lotta people felt and still feel (with ya brudda) that way. WHOO! It sucks, but you missed the worst of it. They've ironed it out pretty good but it can still be a janky mess. In the end you either learn to tolerate it or move on. I for one ended up learning MNK out of the fiasco. I like it, you get some nice movement and flow that pre-3.0 BRD had, sucks you gotta be melee, but whatevs. Still play BRD mostly because I worked my ass pimping it out in the past, and in the end its still a good dps with a solid enough kit. Keep at it for a bit and maybe you'll grow into it. If not, I'm tellin ya MNK is the way to go. It's good stuff, and not a DRG. :V

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Originally Posted by Tango185

That's actually pretty brilliant. I'm stealing this. Thanks!

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Thank you for your kind words.
And I'm glad I you like it ☺