Support Classes/Jobs (Looking at BRD)

I've been a fan of support classes, such as RDM BRD and COR from FFXI.
I've taken up BRD and RDM, but do to lack of time, never got COR to 75.

After playing other MMOs extensively, such as WoW, I would wonder why a support role class was never really added.

Well recently, Yoshida mentioned he didn't want food to become Too good, so people would be forced to use it all the time. (Aka even outside of endgame, just to kill monster of exp range, you would need food.)

This made me think back to FFXI.

When Kirin was 1st released, allot of people had trouble with him, but over time, he became more and more manageable.

Then one day, everyone heard about the defeat of Kirin, that took less than 2 minutes.

What was it? Stacking on the buffs, and of course 2hours.

But remember all those times, your "moderately geared job" would miss miss miss, hit for some seriously bad dmg? (before updates)

If buffs that raise Attack, Accuracy, or Defenses are too good, they require all enemies to be balanced, so no one does a "Kirin Burn".

Now SE just makes more enemies have higher Evasion, Attack, and Defense, which makes you NEED that single buffing class.

This wouldn't be so bad, if it weren't for FFXIVs lack of classes atm. (Eventually jobs)
For the moment, things are decent, but upon the release of Bard, will this tread begin all over again?

Will every group be required to have a BRD?
What if balances are made, so it can buff, but only 1 BRD is needed? then what about all the other people who play BRD?

The current classes, can all at least DD, if someone else is elected to be the healer or tank role, except GLA.

Based on the fact ARC is becoming BRD, I would imagine SE is making BRD into a DD/support hybrid, like COR was in FFXI.

Now, this leaves us with the question, what happens if you have more than 1 BRD? Can they group together, w/o ruining the party?
Are their support abilities weak, and tied to their DD abilities? or are the strong and solely used to buff, like protect is?

The best options I could come up with, to keep as much balance as I could, w/o requiring enemies be made stronger, would be buffs equal to WHM or debuffs equal to BLM, and do not stack. (Which makes you wonder why have it?)

OR give them "Haste" (yes I know ppl don't wanna see TP burns again)
TP+ regeneration,
or HP regeneration. (weak, so as to not NEED a BRD, in order to keep a group alive in all endgame fights.)

Hitting often from haste, can make up for any lack of dmg the BRD does/does not do, it doesn't raise the attack per hit so much, that high defense is needed.
Maybe high HP, if SE ever wanted a potent Haste.

Over all, I would also not want to see Parties turn into NEEDING a support, like how FFXI required 4 roles, rather than 3, just to get exp.
(Granted we can solo, and grouping is easy, so this is most likely never going to happen, even if BRD WAS identical to FFXI BRD)

So out of all the class/job changes coming, (beating out my questions of "will GLA/PLD ever get an option other than to tank, in case of 2 friends both wanting to play the same class/job?" "Will PGL/MNK ever be raised back to optional tank status?" "Will MRD/WAR lose its tanking options come WAR?")
I figured this was the MOST important matter to address now, before its too late. (I'm sure it is, after this late into development.)

I know SE doesn't want to spoil anything, which is why I don't bog down the forums with the other questions I mentioned above (which I actually want to know about MORE, but it's nothing worth bringing up now.) but I feel this is too important to mention later than I already have.

Last but not least, Sorry if I missed any interviews on other websites, or missed anything in general, that makes anything above inaccurate.

EDIT: For Mantastics organized version of this post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post422308

I'm also curious as to what people think in general.
(So to do this, Thumbs up this post, if you are concerned over this possible problem, and thumbs up the following post, if you are not concerned.)

Thumbs up this post, if you are not concerned over this possible problem. and thumbs up the previous post, if you are concerned.
If not, explain why? Do you liek the old system regardless? Anything stand out why you did? Did I miss some info? etc.

EDIT: link to TL;DR http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post422254

It depend of what all the capabilities of a bard are. If they have any battery type songs (regen of MP and perhaps TP) no group will go out without one.

So actually, you are concerned about..what?
Bard becoming too important? Or not important enough? Or mobs getting too strong? Or buffs being tied to DD? Huh? And what has food got to do with this?

Also, TL;DR version please.

Yeah, bard will become a requirement for content that community considers 'hard'. SE will design these events so that bards are needed.

My only concern is that the job doesn't have enough appeal. I think people are looking for something more akin to COR with CC capabilities when they think of being buffers, not a sub-healer.

If they decide to give nukers a distinctive role as compared to dps jobs, there could be five archetypes total. I don't believe that it will become much of an issue in the long run though, as it's pretty easy to level in this game and people generally have access to multiple roles at all times.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

So actually, you are concerned about..what?
Bard becoming too important? Or not important enough? Or mobs getting too strong? Or buffs being tied to DD? Huh? And what has food got to do with this?

Also, TL;DR version please.

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He's concerned about Bard buffs being so potent that they are deemed needed for nearly every encounter and also concerned that the Bard buffs may not overlap with each other in a way that would make more than one Bard in a party useful. Like... say there's an attack buff from Bards that doesn't stack with itself or something, would you really have any use for two Bards?

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

He's concerned about Bard buffs being so potent that they are deemed needed for nearly every encounter and also concerned that the Bard buffs may not overlap with each other in a way that would make more than one Bard in a party useful. Like... say there's an attack buff from Bards that doesn't stack with itself or something, would you really have any use for two Bards?

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Thanks for explaining.
Well, I'm not concerned about that. I don't think balancing will lean into a direction where you will need a BRD for EVERYTHING.
But I hope they make this job needed for at least end game content. After all, we have jobs for players to use them, right?
And I guess BRD will still have Archer skills, so if two BRDs are in one party, one can play nice songs and one can shoot mobs to death as a DD.

At the end of the day, if Bard is actually useful (which is, a no-brainer) the content needs to be balanced according to the assumption that it will be used in it. Otherwise this game will have no difficult encounters at all, as everything is balanced below the skills of an average group.

This is why I partly liked WOW's approach to class balance. Buffs were homogenized across classes so that you only needed 4-5 different classes in a group to get all the important raid buffs and debuffs.

Having just one class with a powerful, game-changing buff or skill is poor design.

Generaly I'm against forcing people to take specific jobs to do content but we have healers, tanks in this game so I guess one more person to look for during party creation doesn't make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Thanks for explaining.
Well, I'm not concerned about that. I don't think balancing will lean into a direction where you will need a BRD for EVERYTHING.

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It's already happened once with a Square-Enix MMO so... I wouldn't be too surprised. And well, while they aren't NEEDED in FFXI, it's kinda like the whole ARC for Darkhold pre-1.19 and the LNC for Ifrit situation we have now. Sure, you don't need to do it that way but it's so much better than the other options we've come up with that most people will consider it a necessity.
We'll see what happens when jobs come out.

EDIT: holy karp this thread got quite a few replies between the post I'm responding to, till this.
Well for the TL;DR version. (I'll try but shortening it changes what I'm saying.)

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I would like to point out issues in MMOs where a group of friends might have a tank (Choices of GLA MRD or maybe one day PGL) and a healer (Choices of CNJ or maybe THM). But will the choices of support be JUST BRD?
Now will BRDs buffs be SO good, that all end game enemies Require BRD? So one of us has to play something they don't enjoy?
What if we have friends who want to be a Ranged DD like Archer, but found BRD to deal no damage, was all that time spent wasted?
What if there is 2 friends, both ARC, originally thinking, "There's nothing wrong having 2 DDs in a group." and now BRD is set up, so only one is helpful to have in a group?

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That is the best I can do, to TL;DR it, but it leaves out all the meat that would make it seem worth posting, rather than just waiting for the news to come.

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Now will BRDs buffs be SO good, that all end game enemies Require BRD? So one of us has to play something they don't enjoy?

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Obviously not, but if you only play whatever you want the community will not be as eager to let you participate.

It is very common that tanks are the most wanted of the archetypes, while dps are less so. You can get by, but it will be harder to prove yourself.

As far as ARC turning BRD goes, the ranged DPS concept doesn't work and needs to be changed. Those it affects simply need to deal with it one way or the other. The game balance it at stake.

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Having just one class with a powerful, game-changing buff or skill is poor design.

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One class or 5 classes, there won't be any more of those who prefer playing the archetype. At best, it comes down to preferences. "Do I want to look like a Ninja while I tank or a Paladin?" Diversity can be a refreshing thing but it's by no means a requirement. The game could get by with 3 classes for each archetype easily.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

As far as ARC turning BRD goes, the ranged DPS concept doesn't work and needs to be changed. Those it affects simply need to deal with it one way or the other. The game balance it at stake.

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Wait what? Ranged DPS doesn't work in MMOs?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Wait what? Ranged DPS doesn't work in MMOs?

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Not in this game.

You can have ranged DPS but it can't be the primary function behind the class. I don't think this is different in any MMO.

Thanks Claire, I think it's way more understandable in the shorter version:)

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

It's kinda like the whole ARC for Darkhold pre-1.19 and the LNC for Ifrit situation we have now. Sure, you don't need to do it that way but it's so much better than the other options we've come up with that most people will consider it a necessity.

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And that's what I think is fine.
As long as it is basically POSSIBLE to do something without BRD, it's okay.
The moment content is no longer POSSIBLE without a certain class, that's when I see a problem with it.
Ifrit-Lancer example:
Many are lvling Lancer now just because Ifrit is easier with 5-6 Lancers, okay.
Looking at the forums, it seems like nobody is trying a different approach anymore.
But if you take a look at the parties ingame actually fighting Ifrit, most of the time people just play their favorite class they are comfortable with. Because that way Ifrit may take longer, it may be harder, but people are having fun by fighting him in their favorite class.

If BRD buffs are useful, BRD will be used.
It will make things easier, and it's basic human instinct to take the easy route.
So every exp party will soon have a BRD in it.
But as long as exp parties are still possible without Bards, some people who don't like the class will play without.
I'm all in for freedom of choice.

Now for endgame content..I think BRD should be needed. Because after all, other classes will be needed too.
It won't be possible without a tanking job and a White Mage, so why should it NOT require a BRD too?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Not in this game.

You can have ranged DPS but it can't be the primary function behind the class. I don't think this is different in any MMO.

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Tons of other MMOs pull it off just fine. It requires more balancing effort, of course, but it's been done.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Tons of other MMOs pull it off just fine. It requires more balancing effort, of course, but it's been done.

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I do like that you are specific. Makes it easy to agree.

You lost me. I'm not sure if we're agreeing right now or if you're making fun of me.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I do like that you are specific. Makes it easy to agree.

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I tought most mages in games are ranged dps characters. In like.. every mmo I played.

I was being slightly sarcastic there; forgive me for that.

Any specific examples of successful primary ranged DPS mechanics?

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I tought most mages in games are ranged dps characters. In like.. every mmo I played.

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Yeah, there's usually a downside to that. Archer doesn't have such thing as mana costs or anything of the sort. Unless you run out of arrows.

The fact that you are not in the close range while you still deal comparable damage to those who are is what makes the situation unsustainable.

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Obviously not, but if you only play whatever you want the community will not be as eager to let you participate.

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I more so mean, just me and 4-8 friends. (edit, obviously not 8 friends as that's 9 ppl lol)
My RL friends play with me in MMOs, and I'm usually the only person who plays supports, but personally I'm currently not really interested in playing ARC to take up BRD. (I might change that)
Outside of my friends, I usually play Tank or Healer willingly.

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"Do I want to look like a Ninja while I tank or a Paladin?"

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Actually, MRD and GLA have different play styles, same with PLD vs NIN in XI.
(Even more so in games like WoW, you would be surprised how drastically different the classes feel. I end up picking which class to play as, based on which play style is more fun, and better suited for my style of "Thinking in a Panic". Plus any issues that arise from my Carpal Tunnel. Aka mashing the mouse button to switch targets too often as WoWs WAR vs PT member targeting as PLD)


edit
Also I kinda agree that Ranged Damage Dealers tend to be 'unfair' (imo) in that, they are supposed to have the safety of being out of AoE range of the boss, yet they deal just as much damage as the melee?

BUT there are ways to balance it, and now that I think of it, lowering dmg, for buffs, that raise others offense, does seem like the reasonable trade off.

But regardless, using WoW as a typical example, Melee (in PvP) have 'anti-CC' to help fight ranged, and some bosses are designed to make melee have an advantage sometimes...

Over all I won't touch too much into this subject.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

I was being slightly sarcastic there; forgive me for that.

Any specific examples of successful primary ranged DPS mechanics?

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Every ranged DPS in WOW?

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

None of those options are especially appealing to me.

If you go with option 1, content will be too difficult for a group lacking a buffer, excluding portions of the user-base and creating situations where content is underused due to difficulty. That's bad for everyone, because it means that resources will be diverted away from developing all those big raids. Square-enix is running a business, and that means keeping as many people happy, and paying, as possible. If only 2-5% of the playerbase sees (insert raid boss' name here) die, you can bet you'll see less of bosses like that in the future.

With option 2, we have more accessible content for everyone. Raids would be doable in a group lacking a bard, but would be made much easier, or worse: trivial, by groups that do have a buffer. Time and time again, communities in MMO's have gravitated towards the most efficient means of accomplishing tasks. So while a raid CAN be cleared by a group sans buffer, you can bet the vast majority of those who actually do will still take one with them. So we'll eventually arrive at the outcome of content is too easy for the majority of players that do it.

And the final possibility: downplay the bards' buffing capabilities. We would then find ourselves asking "a bard that doesn't buff well does what, exactly?" Given that archer is the base class for bard, presumably it does DPS. So why be a bard in this case? What makes a bard mechanically different than other classes? Even from the archer's standpoint, why should he choose to be a bard over a class that already does damage? Not to say the current class situation is the shining example class diversity, but I don't think this hypothetical situation would do anything towards fixing that.

If I had to pick my poison, I'd probably lean towards option 3, and hope they can come up with fun gameplay that's unique to the bard without impacting balance in other areas.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

None of those options are especially appealing to me.

If you go with option 1, content will be too difficult for a group lacking a buffer, excluding portions of the user-base and creating situations where content is underused due to difficulty. That's bad for everyone, because it means that resources will be diverted away from developing all those big raids. Square-enix is running a business, and that means keeping as many people happy, and paying, as possible. If only 2-5% of the playerbase sees (insert raid boss' name here) die, you can bet you'll see less of bosses like that in the future.

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The best way to imagine this already is;
We get too much exp right now (or so people say)
Add a BRD who lets us chain endlessly even FASTER.
people get to Lv50 in 1 hour. (exaggeration, since we have no idea.)
SE has to nerf BRD into the ground, and be another FFXI DRG, until 5 years later, when they find the magical way around this problem.
If it's properly set up from the start, this avoids allot of problems.
Over all I agree with mantastic, and Favor a COR like class.
EDIT: put a link to his post on front page.

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Originally Posted by MANTASTIC

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

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The question is, if you swap your buffer out of the party for X is the group stronger or weaker or neutral? I like specialized roles that make for groups significantly stonger than the sum of their parts. But hopefully at the end of the day the makeup of a strong party reflects the distribution of classes people play.

One problem I ran into with buffs in FFXI was that the buffs themselves can discriminate among classes. Haste was a great buff... for melee. So the ideal parties had melee. Tough luck for rangers and pet classes or black mage. It sucks when a good buff homogenizes what could otherwise be a diverse party of damage dealers because the buff favors some classes over others.

Anyway, GO BARD! But I hope they can be implemented while avoiding some of the pitfalls of FFXI bard.

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One problem I ran into with buffs in FFXI was that the buffs themselves can discriminate among classes. Haste was a great buff... for melee.

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Very good point.
Something that may,or may not, hurt BRD come 2.0.
If the buffs take too much time, as most currently in the game do, (and worse, the time they took up in XI) this can become rather annoying quickly, spamming different buffs, to buff different classes, leaving you with no time to have fun with the class.
(Again looking at BRD in XI, and just sitting there waiting for something to happen, because songs took so long to cast.)

Melee classes always seem very popular. Multi-player skill combos, like skill chains or battle regimens, are a way to let groups of melee buff each other. We'll have to see what self combos and battle regimens 2.0 look like when they get implemented.

Maybe a dedicated buffer class could work in a battle regimen system by using skills that do little or no damage themselves but are able to stand in for combos from any another class. Like the dancer ability from ffxi.