instead of 3.35? The top 100 of all datacenters seem to be stagnating with people more interested on sitting on their rating than actively playing, same applies to the top 10. Whenever I que it pretty much always the same 10 or so people being cycled over and over again with little variety and with the new frontlines coming out I can only imagine how more disinterested people may become to the feast.
It's hard to think that The Feast will be worth doing for another 2 or so months until 3.35 when a lot of people are just hunkering down for the ranked rewards and playing frontlines instead. TBH I think it would be better to have shorter seasons, we'll have the best of competition for rank in the beginning of the season and right when you would start to see a slowing down in a longer season(now) it would instead have more activity of people trying to get in or people trying to keep their spot due to it being near the end of the season.
There just doesn't seem to be a reason for people to play, especially when currently the end is months away.
Should they end the season on 3.3
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05-27-2016, 03:06 PMAviarsShould they end the season on 3.3
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05-27-2016, 03:12 PMYawnie
I feel like it's always like that with PvP.
It's like a shiny new thing when it comes out and people rush to do it, get what they want/need and that's it.
Then when something comes out it'll get active for a while and then die out.
Rinse and repeat. -
05-27-2016, 03:14 PMDimitrii
Idk I kinda was under the impression 3.35 would be 2 weeks after 3.3. But perhaps I'm wrong. Granted I only assumed that since feast started (or at least was supposed to start) 2 weeks after 3.2. So I kinda assumed the season would end 2 weeks after the next major update. Anyway I doubt the seasons end is 2 months away.
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05-27-2016, 03:26 PMAviarsWe have a little under 2 weeks until 3.3 from what everyone else thinks. The difference between 3.2 and 3.25 was about 5 weeks. So there is probably a little less than 2 months left in this season assuming the same pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
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05-27-2016, 08:09 PMZojhaSeems like a good thing to address in the meantime, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviars
As it is, the Feast ranking meta is to solidify your rating until you qualify for reward X, then play the absolute minimum amount needed to keep that reward. Those are the incentives set by the ranking based rewards. The top 100 right now have literally no reason whatsoever to keep playing, because they only risk losing the reward and they can get their PvP fix elsewhere.
People who are not currently in the top 100 do have reason to play, namely to get in there for the rewards and with the RNG nature of solo queue, the more time you have, the better. Except many know they won't qualify for rewards (in time), so there's no reason to bother at all in the first place.
Whether short or long season, you'll see that exact same pattern for as long as you keep the reward structure the same. -
05-27-2016, 08:41 PMaeoncsExactly this. What really surprises me is why this is even a thing - pretty much every other ranked system I know of, and this is especially true for solo queue, punishes you for not playing at least somewhat regularly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
They really need to fix this in the upcoming season. -
05-27-2016, 09:09 PMZojhaAnd even that doesn't help much, because people will still only play whatever SE sets as minimum requirement. One game a month? One a week? Both are common activity requirements. And they only really change something for the people at the bottom who might fall out due to that one game per X. LoL has had such an activity requirement ever since, that never stopped people from buying elo boosts and getting their diamond reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoncs
One would be inclined to base the reward on the highest achieved placement so people only have something to gain but nothing to lose by playing, but that just invites "trading" in a small PvP community such as FFXIV's:"I got rank 1 already, I'll lose games for you now so you can get there as well."
Doing extrinsic motivation right is haaard. And as you notice, I'm not making much of suggestions, because I don't have an answer I couldn't pluck apart myself either. -
05-27-2016, 09:21 PMaeoncsHonestly? I would say at least ten games a week; anything less than that would probably change nothing. But I'm also 99% sure that they would never do this and I really can't think of a fail-proof and permanent solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
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05-27-2016, 09:53 PMNalienTie it to rank; Right now Gold is where the stagnation is, so introduce rating decay at Gold. That forces everyone on the top 100 to actively participate, arguably people would just do their X/week or whatever and stop, but lets not forget why they stopped queuing in the first place... If they lose they're going to need to play more than those "required" games to earn their place back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
That's really only part of the problem though... The rewards, the rating and matchmaking system, even basic PvP mechanics are arguably part of the problem... The current combat dynamics are turning a lot of healers away, for example... Matchmaking is a tough one, we don't have to population to make it really tight, but when it's this loose we end up with matches that are simply unfun, thus people turn away... Same thing with rating, when I get -31 for losing and +19 for a win it enforces "Get a high rating and stop", not to keep playing... The rewards are arguably the worst though... The trophy for first place is pathetic, can't even really be shown off... The crown for the top 10 is lackluster, the gear for the top 100 is the real reward, I think very few people care about anything beyond that, thus people stop once they're in the top 100... The accessories for rank are not only pathetic in concept, but we've not even been shown them... Who is going to push for Diamond for a bleedin' accessory? Personally, I'd have gone with rank based trophies, top 100 get full gear except the body, top 10 get the body, top 1 gets a token to exchange for a unique weapon... -
05-27-2016, 11:20 PMZojhaIiindeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I don't quite get what you're trying to achieve with gating the more desirable rewards behind a higher rating. You only make people lose interest because let's face it: Only very few people have what it takes to get into the highest rankings and people who realize they are not part of these few quickly lose all incentive to keep playing. The reward will only lure those people who consider it within their reach, everyone else will just not bother, so chances are you'll reduce rather than increase participation if you put the carrot too far away. I'm, uh...not sure that's what you want, all things considered.
It's all pretty tricky. To be perfectly honest, I find the idea of ranking based rewards quite cute in the first place, because if anything, trophies for active participation would be needed, not for high level play. But I hear JP datacenters got quite the active PvP scene, so I dunno. Might work out for them somehow. -
05-27-2016, 11:31 PMEdgyLatinName
Probably, I'm getting longer ques time the past two weeks and I can't imagine what another 5 weeks (assuming that's what it will be) after 3.3. Also queing into the same handful of people with and against over and over isn't fun.
On another note the new trailer up has a good picture of the rewards if anyone still wants to see it. -
05-27-2016, 11:59 PMFodemhouse
1) Achievements with rewards...
2) Punishment for Non Players... Example> ( less than 10x week = -300 points )
3) Create pvp unique items, make pvp materia work in the feast... New mounts, minions etc that u can earn only participating on pvp...
4) increase lore/esoteric rating...
5) Separate pvp on 2 matchmaking tiers ( Unranked + Bronze ) // (Silver + Gold + Platinum + Diamond)
And of course END OF SEASON... Make the SEASON periods shorter... This will be a great incentive for new players and to have old players back to fight... -
05-28-2016, 12:37 AMNalienWell, that's the problem with the current rewards; Beyond the armor there just isn't anything even worth considering... As a result, people don't even bother... If you make the top 100 rewards worthless, you get the same problem though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Ideally, I'd rather see rating be Job based... Been saying that since the start though... Rank the Dark Knights against the Dark Knights and the Monks against the Monks... Balance issues become somewhat less problematic with that, and I think rewards become somewhat better and things become more competitive... You can effectively make the top 100 rewards "worthless" like that, because getting in the top 100 with Job based rankings is incredibly easy... That allows for more competition around the top 10 spots, of which there would be 130 in total given there are 13 Jobs, so if we push the armor to top 10 we're technically getting 30 extra sets... I think we'd have a lot more competition like that, more meaningful competition too... You'd be fighting to be the best Ninja, for example... Bonus points if you can climb the ranks for multiple Jobs... Then, rather than looking at my rating and sitting on it by no longer participating, I can perhaps participate on another Job...
Perhaps need a few adjustments to things with that, might need to scale it back to role based rather than Job based, but I think that would be a much better system than the current system... Right now though, I just don't think the current rewards are generating any real interest... That number one spot should be something everyone wants, even if they're realistically not going to be able to reach it, and the trophy really just doesn't do that... I'm doubtful most even have a place to show off such a thing, and even if they do you can hardly show it off without being incredibly needy... I think a minion would have been a better reward... Not as something the #1 player gets exclusively, but with SE immortalizing them in minion form... That's the kind of reward that would keep me queuing to try and get #1, though as we've said, the rewards alone aren't going to do that... -
05-28-2016, 01:16 AMAviars
Something great Blizzard did for WoW arena was add elite gear that you can start to buy as you get to a certain rating or perhaps a tier in this game. Another thing blizzard does to keep people playing is basically having weekly Lore tomes specifically for pvp in order to get armor and rewards. Obviously getting armor right now means nothing due to level sync but they can do this point system perhaps for other rewards like what many of you have suggested, maybe even create a incentive for raiders to play to increase the population.
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05-28-2016, 01:51 AMSynestra
Tbh they should focus more on getting peoples to do light party instead solo, afterall that is the true arena mode. What i have heard light party is pretty dead atm and that is kinda sad imo as i would love to see some competitive matches being played and recorded, maybe do some kind of tournamet mode for premades with unique rewards or something.
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05-28-2016, 04:11 AMFodemhouseParty Arenas are dead because we dont have enough players for that , and we cant play with friends from other servers....Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
To help Party Arenas we need to be able to play with people from other servers... Cross Data Centers for PVP would be great... We would be able to play against lots of other people and nationality... -
05-28-2016, 04:44 AMkisada
once they announced shatter, feast had no chance. just too many things wrong with the mode which the team isn't really addressing.
imo end it at 3.3 and put it out of its misery. -
05-28-2016, 05:02 AMZojhaMe neither. But it doesn't surprise me - the first reaction I got from people when they heard only the top 100 per data center are getting anything cool was to say:"Well, not gonna bother then." The current rewards already seem out of reach for the vast majority of potential players and consequently, they don't bother queuing up in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I think focusing on the top rewards simply targets the entirely wrong audience. We don't need rewards to get Nex to play PvP and I dare say the same holds true for the vast majority of the current top 100 in any of the data centers. What you do need rewards for is to get people who do not already live and breathe PvP into it. And that simply doesn't go over top end rewards because those are not top end players and many of them are well aware of that fact. -
05-28-2016, 05:08 AMaeoncsEven WoWs Arena wasn't particularly popular during its first season back in TBC. Obviously much more so than The Feast, but PvP in general was considerably more sought after.Quote:
Originally Posted by kisada
I think it still has a chance, if (and that's a big if) they take the time to reflect after the first season ends and address some of its biggest flaws before the beginning of the second. If they don't, then I agree, it's done for. -
05-28-2016, 05:19 AMEorzean_usernameSome kind of Skirmish or Training or something would help a lot with keeping a stream of new participants flowing in for each one that gets bored or satisfied and drifts out.Quote:
Originally Posted by aeoncs
I honestly really like Feast (which surprises me, because I've always loathed Arena PvP in other worlds). I want to do more. But I'm just not comfortable sacrificing serious PvP'ers hard-fought ratings so I can experiment and learn. And 8v8 feels like a goofy side idea that doesn't really teach me much about 4v4 (and also matches me against and with Gold+ players, the former which smash my face into the floor, the latter which politely try to work around me / pretend I'm not there).
Maybe other players aren't so concerned about others' happiness as me — it really bothers me to think someone can play games for hours, then get me on their team and lose all that work due to my inexperience — but there must be other interested players who also back off, due to pressure, stress, salt, etc.
I just think SE should consider that not everyone who's a potential PvP participant will conveniently stumble into it during pre-season free-for-all periods, and discovering this mid-season is currently a little rough and discouraging due to a lack of options for effective training and catch-up. -
05-29-2016, 09:08 AMSynestraWell i hope they will do something with this, its sad to see that main mode is dead while majority bitches about public mode(solo que). I want to see 2 awesome coordinated teams fighting for glory and cheer for personal favorite, i just love sprorts no matter if its real or e-sport :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Fodemhouse
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05-29-2016, 11:25 AMFebrusThat exclusivity is also part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind of person who thinks that everyone should get a gold star just for participating. Rewards have value because they are exclusive. The problem is that there is a point at which people come to the ultimate conclusion that they aren't even in the running for them based on time alone. Currently, to get any kind of reward outside of your standard tome bonuses, you have to be ridiculously active. We're talking hundreds of matches per season. Not everyone has that kind of time to play. With an hour of log time a time a night, you're looking at only one or two matches, and that's if you ignore all the other content in the game (roulette's, raids, etc.). If you're down to the wire on your weekly caps, then you are even more pressured to split your time doing other things that have a higher payout. So, whereas you're still climbing ranks, you're not going to get any of the abysmally few PvP rewards that are only available to the top tier players.
Ideally, the alternative would be to have other incentives in the form of currency exchanges, but the Wolf Marks's system is also, tragically, out of date and offers nothing of any use or value (aside from a money laundering alternative using desynthesis). If they had a real, useful, purpose to our Wolf Marks, things would be different. Casual players might not have a snowballs chance in hell at getting the PvP exclusive rewards, but at least they could spend their marks and have a reason to actively collect more. If they split up what goods are available between the ranking brackets (ie: lower value items at Unranked-Bronze. Higher value items at Silver - Platinum), there would also be more incentive to actually try to rank up. Even if you knew you'd never make it to the top 10, you'd still have an incentive to play your fair share of matches. -
05-29-2016, 09:20 PMZojha...frankly, no. Rewards have value because you ascribe value to them for one reason or another. Character progression (for example via experience points/level) is by no means exclusive, but XP are nevertheless a reward whose value motivates people hundreds and thousands of times over in video gaming. And an exclusive turd is still a turd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
The time argument primarily is one for longer seasons. If you have less time per day, you need more days to get to do the same as someone who can manage more games in less days. But that's about it. Currency rewards technically are a good idea, but that's already been debated in other places - the issue of what exactly to offer remains. -
05-30-2016, 04:30 AMFebrusOn that we disagree. Firstly, exclusivity most certainly does ascribe value. No one gives two cents for an armour set that literally everyone can have. Why? Because people want to feel special, and there's nothing special about being the exact same as everyone else. Secondly, not all rewards have the same value. If the prize for getting last place was the same as getting 1st place, then there would quite literally be no reason to even try to get 1st. I don't even consider something as insignificant as experience points to be a reward, because quite frankly it's not. It's just progression, and it's available to everyone. The rewards come at the end, if you can carry that progression far enough. It's even worse if you consider the actual value of exp, which is abysmally low in FFxiv. You're not even, technically, progressing, because exp doesn't actually unlock anything new, so much as just improve the tools you start with by tiny amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Gonna have to disagree with this, as well. I'm not making an argument for longer seasons, and making such an argument is utterly pointless. Why? Because the length of the season changes nothing. Say you have two players. Player 1 gets 6 hours a day to play. Player 2 gets 1 hour a day to play. By the sheer difference in play time, Player 1 will always come out on top in the leader boards. It doesn't matter if the season is longer if player 1 is still playing more games. The only way a longer season would be a benefit to the casual player is if the hardcore player gets lazy and decides to take a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Currency exchange isn't a way to somehow offer rewards to casual players, or make a half-assed attempt at balancing casual and hardcore players. Frankly, that's impossible. Currency exchange is to offer incentive to continue playing, even when you know that the exclusive rewards are beyond your reach. As for what kind of items to offer, that's simple. You just have to ask yourself what gets, and keeps, people in the game? What content is lacking from PvP that might pull willing players away to other content? Materia? Crafting materials? Relic items? Gear upgrades? Mounts and Minions? I can probably think of about 100 different items that I can only currently get by not playing PvP which would be awesome to see at a WD vendor, and that's just with existing content. If we're talking about speculative content exclusive for PvP Vendors, then the list is damn near endless. -
05-30-2016, 06:03 AMZojhaExcept everyone who simply likes the look of the armor. Or, the stats. Or anything else that might make it desirable to you. And due to this, rewards are indeed not equally valuable - you might like the look of X item, but not Y item. So X is more valuable to you than Y.Whether X or Y is exclusive is irrelevant. That's why I said: An exclusive turd is still a turd. It's not valuable and no amount of exclusivity will make it so. Meanwhile, oxygen is very valuable, but not exclusive at all (yet, luckily). Exclusivity objectively has no value and creates no value - it has subjective value to you as a person because you believe it does. But exclusivity has no innate utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
That's...kinda the reason I brought it up. It's a reward, you don't get it for nothing. You get the XP for killing enemies, FATEs or doing other tasks and you get the abilities for reaching certain XP milestones (aka: Levels). It is objectively a reward. You do something, you get something in turn. The fact that it's a reward available to everyone does not make it any less of a reward. And that's the point. Not every reward, especially not every desired reward, is exclusive. And not everything exclusive is desirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
You are currently arguing that the leaderboards have nothing to do with skill, only with time. Otherwise, the better player would end up on top given enough season time, not the person who plays more. I'm sorry, but if that is true, leaderboards and rankings as such are complete and entirely pointless and we should get rid of them ASAP. Uhm...yeah. I don't know what to do with such an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I'm not sure that's a good question to ask, because it's trying to substitute every other content with PvP. Trying to answer this question, I can name everything from crafter leveling over MSQ to Gold Saucer points and Savage Raids. And truly, if I asked the same question for gold saucer players, pure crafters or pure dungeon players, I'd be in the same position. How many of these make sense as rewards for PvP? How many are redundant, since PvP awards tomes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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05-30-2016, 06:57 AMDimitrii
I believe the queues will pick up a little later on, at least on Primal. There's dozens of players atm who naively believe they will be able to just stop queuing right now and still end up within the top 100. Imo if you dont have 1150+ points you arent safe to do that and primal has at least 40 ppl in the rankings with less than 1100 points which is not a safe position at all. As the season starts drawing to a close numbers 42 to 100 are gonna get pushed more and more because they have so little points (i.e all are under 1150 points).
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05-30-2016, 11:45 AMFebrusYou're not 100% wrong, but you're oversimplifying this by a dramatic margin. If exclusivity allotted no value, the no one would do savage raids. No one would go out of their way to get obscure titles that require an obnoxious amount of time and effort to get. No one would bother to go after rare mounts or minions, and no one would spend Millions of Gill on the Market Board on what is essentially useless glamour pieces. Sure, value is widely attributed to an object based on personal tastes, but originality is gained by exclusivity. Having that rare and unobtainable item is a status symbol in the community. I could pretend that people don't care about that kind of thing, but I'd just be telling myself a beautiful, and wholly unconvincing, lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
I do agree that there should be more value to attributed an exclusive reward than it's exclusivity alone, but people are still going for it regardless. Given that stats are next to worthless in PvP, they're not going after for that reason ...
This is a fundamental difference in perspective and mindset. I don't see exp as a reward at all, no matter how hard I worked for it. It's progression; not reward. The levels and skill I attain by gaining exp are nothing more than tools to be used for my advancement. The reward is what I get when I achieve my ultimate goal by using those tools, which is victory. I compare it to getting a paycheck at work. I put in my 9-5, and I get what I earned. It's not a reward for achieving anything. It's a direct exchange between effort and effect. The reward, by comparison, would be your yearly bonus for overachieving on a performance evaluation. These two things are not equal to me. If they are to you, then we won't see eye to eye on this, which is totally fine. Everyone is entitled to their own perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
No. Not even close. Again, you are dramatically oversimplifying what I said and flat out misunderstanding the entire concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
If we're comparing two players who have equal opportunity to play, then the difference between their position is determined by skill and luck (it is a team based game mode, after all). If two players have an identical total number of matches played, then any differences in their final standing could only be explained by A) their personal skill level and/or B) how lucky they got with their teammates. That's not even a question, and I never once contested that.
However, I wasn't comparing a two players with equal an opportunity to play. I was (hypothetically) comparing two equal players who don't have equal opportunity. In that circumstance, the player with less matches played couldn't possibly surpass the player with more matches played, even if they were dramatically better at the game. You can't pull bonus points out of an un-played match. Extending the duration of the season doesn't help either, because making it a longer season doesn't change the fact that one player simply has more time to log in. If a player is working 16 hour days, he can't compare to the log time of someone working 4 hour days, regardless of how long the season is. I'm not really sure how you're confusing this, because it's pretty straight forward.
Regardless, I never said anything about the skill levels of higher top tier players. I'm just accounting for the possibility of equally skilled players who don't get nearly as much time to enjoy themselves. I also didn't say a single word about leaderboards being pointless and that we should get rid of them. I really don't know what you should do with that argument either, because I didn't make it.
Given the current position of PvP, it's a perfectly fine question to ask. The reason being is that, currently, we have more reasons not to play PvP than we actually have to keep playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Almost everything in this game overlaps with something else. Crafting materials can be obtained from dungeons/trials/raids/diadem/beast tribe quests. Gold Saucer Points can also be exchanged for rare cards found in dungeons/trials/raids etc. You can gear up traditionally (tomestones/ex trials/raids) or you can craft and meld gear. The GC and Hunt systems are practically married to one another, and you can obtain lower level gear upgrades using Hunt marks. The list goes on. If we're talking about redundancy in content, then PvE has it in spades. Practically anything you want to do outside of savage level content can be obtained or worked towards while doing any number of other things.
Do you know what overlaps with PvP? Tomestones. Just that one thing, and it happens to be the one most common "reward" in the entire game. It's no wonder why the incentive to queue for PvP is so heavily outweighed by the incentive to queue for practically anything else. The only truly exclusive rewards across the content in this game is mounts, minions, and titles, and we have all those things already. I'm not saying that more exclusive rewards wouldn't be a good thing. It sure would be, but regardless of how much sense those rewards make for PvP, they're not enough to tip the scales and keep PvP queues alive. That's a fact, and it live and breathes in the DF every day. Trying to all of the other content in the game with PvP would be a bit dramatic and going to far, that's true, but providing a little bit of balance in incentives is definitely not a bad thing, especially considering literally everything PvE related already does this shamelessly. No one should feel left out or punished just for playing and enjoying PvP. SE could stand to level the playing field a little if they want to make a serious run at keeping this content alive. -
05-30-2016, 01:16 PMTitor
Yes, feast needs to end in 3.3. Look at the leaderboards for many of the data centers, it is so stagnant. Probably less than 30% of those on the leaderboard are actually playing (you can see their modifiers from the last day) and it is only going to get worse, especially with 3.3 and shatter. I know I am done with Feast for the season (Unless something drastic happens in 3.3 and/or I start to fall off the board for my datacenter)
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06-01-2016, 09:29 PMVaeria
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-...762_o.jpg?dl=1
The rewards of your blood, sweat and tears. Assuming the stats will be beastly at least..cuz another Kirimu jacket with an additional cod piece just makes me wonder why we just didn't do it for free.
..know im gonna get in trouble for this but just gotta ask. ...if it was between this gear set and.....bigger boobs for your character...which? K..I apologize. Don't answer. -
06-02-2016, 12:48 AMChilla