Bloodletter and Rain of Death

So I keep hearing complaints about two abilities that were shall we say, incomtable with Wanderer's Minuet. I was think that if should at least change these two abilities to synergize Better with Minuet

First off, I would suggest removing the CD reset while in Minuet, since players seem unable to make use of it as they like anyway, instead replacing it with a chance for TP/MP recovery. In addition, Bloodletter and Rain of Blood should have a buff while in Minuet, the allowment of casting for the next Single-target or AoE skill, respectibly while moving, as well as higher potency to make up for the missed procs.

What do you think?

And Yes I'm not far enough with BRD for WM an am thus likely unqualified to make suggestions like this, this thread is based on hearsay from the usual forum complaints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So I keep hearing complaints about two abilities that were shall we say, incomtable with Wanderer's Minuet. I was think that if should at least change these two abilities to synergize Better with Minuet

First off, I would suggest removing the CD reset while in Minuet, since players seem unable to make use of it as they like anyway, instead replacing it with a chance for TP/MP recovery. In addition, Bloodletter and Rain of Blood should have a buff while in Minuet, the allowment of casting for the nest Single-target or AoE skill, respectibly while moving, as well as higher potency to make up for the missed procs.

What do you think?

---

just to get an idea, i for about 1 minute kept my dots up on a dummy and had 10 resets. thats a reset roughly every 6 seconds. thats 150 pot for each reset. the tp/mp recovery being next to useless, the change in pot to make your change worth while would have to be pretty busted

I can't help but be curious why you think these two aren't compatible with WM?

WM's cast times aren't as long as your GCD timer. You can fit these skills in after any use of a GCD and it's a net DPS gain. The cast times on Bard/MCH while in barrel/Minuet are short enough to accomodate this. I think they're fine as they are.

That CD reset is a godsend though? Remove it at all and we'd have a problem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

I can't help but be curious why you think these two aren't compatible with WM?

---

Becuase as I mentioned (and added to the OP), I keep seeing posts about how WM apparently messes with those procs (It was on the WM/Gauss Bartrel thread), an have not leveled enough for BRD to test it myself

the only fix that is acceptable , is making bloodletter and RoD gain "charges" so if get a proc reset when u start casting and another before u are able to use BL or RoD u dont lose 1 proc...and u can implement that in other procs (firestarter and thundercloud 4 example)...

or let bard cast BL/ROD WHILE CASTING...

i dont have tp problems not even in raid... there are enough "downtime" in every raid that being tp starved is a no-issue , plus invigorate is always there... MP restoration isnt a dps gain for the bard ..

removing the proc is killing this job , we are a crit job for a reason , is the best stat across the board , but as BRD we gain something (dot crits proc BL reset)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Becuase as I mentioned (and added to the OP), I keep seeing posts about how WM apparently messes with those procs (It was on the WM/Gauss Bartrel thread), an have not leveled enough for BRD to test it myself

---

Huh, weird. I guess I'd need a more experienced bard to explain it to me. Sorry for the trouble. XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Becuase as I mentioned (and added to the OP), I keep seeing posts about how WM apparently messes with those procs (It was on the WM/Gauss Bartrel thread), an have not leveled enough for BRD to test it myself

---

I can tell you right now that it doesn't affect it enough to make a fix like this, but thanks for trying I guess.
Warlyx's idea of charges is pretty fine; I like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

I can't help but be curious why you think these two aren't compatible with WM?

WM's cast times aren't as long as your GCD timer. You can fit these skills in after any use of a GCD and it's a net DPS gain. The cast times on Bard/MCH while in barrel/Minuet are short enough to accomodate this. I think they're fine as they are.

---

It's more about the fact that sometimes unused bloodletters reset while casting, whereas if WM didn't exist, you'd have been able to use it before it reset. It makes everything feel clunky as hell.

MCH doesn't have this problem because they have numerous procs and abilities through their bullet system that specifically cancels out the casting, not to mention the fact that they don't get any CD resets to complicate matters. Bard doesn't have anything nearly as elaborate built into their version of the system, and also happens to be far more restrictive at the same time. To compare how both are designed...

Gauss Barrel - Changes to pre-52 skills:
- Rapid Fire: Gauss Barrel cast time canceled for the next 3 weaponskills
- Enhanced Slug Shot: 50% chance after using Split Shot for Slug Shot to be used with no cast time (100% if bullets are loaded)
- Enhanced Clean Shot: 50% chance after using Slug Shot for Clean Shot to be used with no cast time (100% if bullets are loaded)

Gauss Barrel - Post-52 skills that require it turned on:
- Gauss Round: 20 second CD instant cast with 200 potency
- Ricochet: 60 second CD instant cast with 100 potency to initial target and 200 distributed among nearby targets
(Turrets also get to continue auto-attacking while Gauss Barrel is turned on. Promotion's TP/MP restoration is still instant cast, and using it only comes at the loss of turret auto attacks.)

Wanderer's Minuet - Changes to pre-52 skills:
- Straighter Shot: 20% chance after using Heavy Shot for Straight Shot to be used with no cast time

Wanderer's Minuet - Post-52 skills that require it turned on:
- Emperyal Arrow: 15 second CD 1.5 second cast time with 220 potency. (Cast time admittedly exists here because Barrage wouldn't work with Emperyal without it.)
- Iron Jaws: Global CD skill, refreshes duration of Windbite and Venomous Bite DoTs
(Bard songs still have a 3 second cast time + the TP/MP songs still reduce the Bard's overall damage by 15% upon use.)

You can tell which version is far more thought out, and which one feels more like a last second decision. Machinist version encourages players to think about how best to use their bullets to remain mobile and weave in off-GCDs more easily. Use of Wanderer's Minuet is only justified by gating two essential skills behind it. That sort of design is extremely sour from a balancing standpoint.

It also doesn't help that Bloodletter is sometimes buggy as hell, as in using Bloodletter sometimes cancels out your next skill, or Bloodletter is canceled by your next skill if you try casting your next skill too early. I would guess one of the future Bard adjustments for 3.3 might be to reduce the Bloodletter animation delay before you get to cast your next skill. Besides the obvious 'Wide Volley is COMPLETELY useless right now'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eidolon

I can't help but be curious why you think these two aren't compatible with WM?

---

Before WM, you could squeeze in two OGCD abilities for every GCD ability. With the cast times, you can only manage one. This in turn means that you have less opportunity to use the bloodletter resets you get. Not only can it reset twice over during your cast time and animation lock, you also have a bunch of other OGCD abilities as bard that you need to weave in somewhere. Essentially, the OGCD window is much more busy and therefore, bloodletter procs that could previously be used are getting lost.

I actually just came up with an idea on how Minuet could be tweaked better to work with how Bard skills work. Actually I have a whole list of Bard changes I'd like to see.

- Wanderer's Minuet: 1.5 second cast time to all weaponskills and canceling auto-attack removed. Instead, activating Wanderer's Minuet boosts damage by 15% as long as the Bard remains still. Also results in numerous adjustments to earlier skills. Any movement cancels the effect. (I'm aware this is essentially Ley Lines, but I think this system would work FAR better for Bards than what we currently have. Emperyal Arrow still works the same as before. Iron Jaws still requires Minuet being in effect, but cast time is removed.)
- Repelling Shot: While under the effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, Repelling Shot knocks back the target instead of sending the Bard backwards.
- Shadowbind: While under the new effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, Shadowbind stuns the target instead of binding.
- Heavy Shot: Straighter Shot proc rate is increased from 20% -> 40% while under Wanderer's Minuet.
- Straight Shot: Straighter Shot proc while under Wanderer's Minuet additionally increases potency from 140 -> 160.
- Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon: While under the effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, damage penalty is reduced from 15% -> 10%.
- Swiftsong: Can now be used in combat as long as Wanderer's Minuet is active. Combat version of Swiftsong drains MP while active. Cannot be used with other songs. Effect dissipates as soon as Minuet is also canceled.
- Wide Volley: Changed to a buff that only works with single target weaponskills. Next single target weaponskill used will have splash AoE around the target. (Emperyal Arrow is excluded.) Cooldown of 60 seconds. Shares recast timer with Barrage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I actually just came up with an idea on how Minuet could be tweaked better to work with how Bard skills work. Actually I have a whole list of Bard changes I'd like to see.
- Wanderer's Minuet: 1.5 second cast time to all weaponskills and canceling auto-attack removed. Instead, activating Wanderer's Minuet boosts damage by 15% as long as the Bard remains still. Also results in numerous adjustments to earlier skills. Any movement cancels the effect. (I'm aware this is essentially Ley Lines, but I think this system would work FAR better for Bards than what we currently have. Emperyal Arrow still works the same as before. Iron Jaws still requires Minuet being in effect, but cast time is removed.)
- Repelling Shot: While under the effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, Repelling Shot knocks back the target instead of sending the Bard backwards.
- Shadowbind: While under the new effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, Shadowbind stuns the target instead of binding.
- Heavy Shot: Straighter Shot proc rate is increased from 20% -> 40% while under Wanderer's Minuet.
- Straight Shot: Straighter Shot proc while under Wanderer's Minuet additionally increases potency from 140 -> 160.
- Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon: While under the effect of the new Wanderer's Minuet, damage penalty is reduced from 15% -> 10%.
- Swiftsong: Can now be used in combat as long as Wanderer's Minuet is active. Combat version of Swiftsong drains MP while active. Cannot be used with other songs. Effect dissipates as soon as Minuet is also canceled.
- Wide Volley: Changed to a buff that only works with single target weaponskills. Next single target weaponskill used will have splash AoE around the target. (Emperyal Arrow is excluded.) Cooldown of 60 seconds. Shares recast timer with Barra

ge.

---

for once, there isnt really anything i think is overly bad or overpowered. only thing i would change/dont like is the swiftsong thing. seems like a waste of mp when you could be making healers/caster do more, unless you mean the battle version increases attack speed, because i dont see movement speed during battle as anything great. other thing is the wide volley change. it gives it a use, but no one would ever use it because of the shared recast with barrage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaze3434

for once, there isnt really anything i think is overly bad or overpowered. only thing i would change/dont like is the swiftsong thing. seems like a waste of mp when you could be making healers/caster do more, unless you mean the battle version increases attack speed, because i dont see movement speed during battle as anything great. other thing is the wide volley change. it gives it a use, but no one would ever use it because of the shared recast with barrage.

---

Yeah, the Swiftsong thing was a last minute thing. It'd be mainly for full physical parties that have little need for MP/TP regen, and people complain that bards don't offer enough support for supposedly being a support class, so I decided 'eh, might as well'. Attack speed increase probably shouldn't be a thing though, or else balance compared to Machinist goes right back into the gutter.

The Wide Volley change is mainly for packs of enemies. The main benefit of using it is that it'd let you throw Windbite or Venomous Bite on multiple enemies at once, instead of having to manually throw it on them one by one. That means easy mass Rain of Death resets. Of course, it had to have shared recast with Barrage because there had to be SOME downside to using it. Then again, Wide Volley would only ever be used for mob packs, and Barrage would only ever be used for single target situations.

In fact I was actually concerned I might have overtuned things...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Yeah, the Swiftsong thing was a last minute thing. It'd be mainly for full physical parties that have little need for MP/TP regen, and people complain that bards don't offer enough support for supposedly being a support class, so I decided 'eh, might as well'.

The Wide Volley change is mainly for packs of enemies. The main benefit of using it is that it'd let you throw Windbite or Venomous Bite on multiple enemies at once, instead of having to manually throw it on them one by one. That means easy mass Rain of Death resets. Of course, it had to have shared recast with Barrage because there had to be SOME downside to using it. Then again, Wide Volley would only ever be used for mob packs, and Barrage would only ever be used for single target situations.

In fact I was actually concerned I might have overtuned things...

---

normally i would say a move that lets you put oneof your dots on everything would be good, but right now, the only amount of dotted enemies that one can keep up with is 3. any more and straight shot falls off

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Ideas

---

Nice ideas.

Repelling Shot is part of Bard mobility so that would be a weird change.

I think that a 40% SS proc would be enough under the current WM for a QoL and DPS change for BRD.

The Wide Volley idea is pretty cool for quicker AOE setup for maintaining dots with IJ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Repelling Shot is part of Bard mobility so that would be a weird change.

---

Yeah, I was wondering about how Repelling Shot was going to fit in. The way it currently works, it's actually better than Fluid Aura/Blank because it won't mess up AoEs, but at the same time, being able to use Repelling Shot without canceling my proposed Minuet would be awkward as hell. That was my original plan, actually, but I figured we needed some downsides somewhere to balance things out.

Leylines has always felt like it should have been the BRD skill from the start, but at this stage I don't think it's quite realistic to talk about reworks on that scale, and I don't see SE ever removing the cast time aspect given its benefits to class balancing. I think what we're more likely to see in 3.3 are targeted buffs to shore up the places where BRD falls too far behind MCH to be able to compete, namely movement-heavy phases, utility QoL, and low-HP adds.

If we're having fun posting 'wishlists', my personal one would be something like:

1) Straight Shot returns to 70 TP and becomes always-instant-cast.

2) Juggle the trait/level ordering around, and rework the Heavier Shot trait (moved to level 30-something). Instead of granting random Straighter Shot procs, have the trait make Heavy Shot deal 200 potency to targets you do not have Windbite or Venomous Bite applied to. This way BRD can be not-garbage on adds that don't live long enough to do good DoT damage to (MCH skills have the same-ish potency, but they get to add the turret on top for a 'free ~55p DoT' so long as it's in range, while SMN also has Garuda and was given that Ruin 3 buff).

3) To make up for most of the normal-case potency lost by the removal of Straighter Shot, set Heavy Shot's base potency to 160.

4) To make up for the rest of the lost damage, buff Sidewinder (and make it sexier) by making it automatically crit.

5) Make all songs (regrettably) instant-cast because spending 3s on Foe is just too terrible right now when it has to compete against Hypercharge being instant.

Note the careful avoidance of anything that would make BRD's strength (damaging multiple high-HP targets) better, because it doesn't need to be better in those fights that are friendly to it. It just needs to not go so deep into the tank when a fight has jumps/breaks, adds that die in 10 seconds, and lots of running about and moving the boss away from Flaming Arrows and so on.

Atm bards never need to even use invigorate in single target fights at all, so removing blood letter for tp/mp is ewww

Nerfing bards highest priority ability? Not sure why anyone would think that's a good idea.

Bloodletter resets are dps gain even if you don't weave them into a GCD. Leave it as is.

I have the best way to fix them and it's rather simple. Take out WM, problem solved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I have the best way to fix them and it's rather simple. Take out WM, problem solved.

---

Bards have DPS problems WITH WM. This is the last solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Bards have DPS problems WITH WM. This is the last solution.

---

WM adds no true damage to Bard DPS. All it does is factor in the auto attack that we lose to WM into your weapon skills. You can test this yourself on a 60 training dummy your auto attack and weapon skill will equal out to be in the same damage range as your skills with WM. Sidewinder is already not gated behind WM so neither does IJ and EM. There was no reason for them to add WM to Bard other than the fact they got pure lazy. Had they just gave Bard an overall damage buff and add more support skills like Valor Voice, Voice of Fortitude and Relentless March, which Jehantel has. The class would be much better off than it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

snip.

---

Incorrect. Autoattacks were roughly 20% of a bard's dps, WM adds 30%, AND makes abilities like sidewinder, flaming arrow, rain of death, etc, hit harder, so it really comes to an even bigger increase than that. And that's not even talking about the huge DPS increase that emp and iron jaws gives you. WM is a huge buff, and removing it without adding something MASSIVE in return at this point would make the class 100% unplayable to the point where they would get laughed out of parties.

WM also added a bit of depth to a class that was completely braindead in 2.0, which I enjoy, but that's just my own opinion.

One thing they should do is make the next skill after repelling shot instant cast since if you don't time it perfectly you get cast canceled. This could also be implemented with bloodletter to allow you to use a 2nd bloodletter instant recast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

WM adds no true damage to Bard DPS. All it does is factor in the auto attack that we lose to WM into your weapon skills. You can test this yourself on a 60 training dummy your auto attack and weapon skill will equal out to be in the same damage range as your skills with WM.

---

Uh...did you even try this yourself? The heavy shot+an auto attack(950+500) does MORE damage than heavy shot under WM(1200) plus the auto has a chance of Criticaling(800). I know bc I just tried it <.<


But without iron jaws or empyreal and the 30% boost on all your OGCDs, you come out waaaay weaker.

'Windbite and Veno bite dot crits have a 50% chance of making the next weaponskill instant cast" (in addition to what it does now)
BAM

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alimdia

'Windbite and Veno bite dot crits have a 50% chance of making the next weaponskill instant cast" (in addition to what it does now)
BAM

---

That seems like an interesting fix, but what if there are two crits during the casts and before the effect takes place?