Something I notice on the recent Live Letter

So when they show us the screenshoot related to the Main Scenario quests. We see the possessed Estenien on a damaged Steps of Faith.

Does anyone remember where we saw that already ? Perhaps the movie trailer.
Could it be that is a hint that what we saw on the movie may actually happen happen?

But well I could be wrong, so I leave it to your opinion people.

We also saw Estinien on the Steps of Faith...right after finishing the Steps of Faith Trial.


The intro movie also doesn't have him on the Steps (and it may not even be him, but a generic Dragoon), just on a spire and jumping on the attacking dragon (and then he gets eaten later on...)


So...no, sorry, not making connections here at all

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Originally Posted by PArcher

We also saw Estinien on the Steps of Faith...right after finishing the Steps of Faith Trial.


The intro movie also doesn't have him on the Steps (and it may not even be him, but a generic Dragoon), just on a spire and jumping on the attacking dragon (and then he gets eaten later on...)


So...no, sorry, not making connections here at all

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So? what if we already saw Estenien already there?
Dont you remember that it was said that the events of the movie trailer could or couldnt not happen? That it may happen on some time arround the expansion? That doesnt necesary need to be the intro, could be something different.

On the movie trailer the WoL fights Nidhogg on a damaged steps of faith and right after is interrupted by couple dragoons.
Is not Estenien being posssessed by Nidhogg and can actually become him?
The events of the movie trailer may be end of the dragonsong war.

You dont need to be passive agressive.
( Dont say we fight his white brother, it was supposed to be Nidhogg )

Also this is just a teory, but yes there are connections. We have Nidhogg and the damaged SoF.

No, the WoL doesn't fight Nidhogg in the trailer

He fights Hraesvelgr.


Nidhogg isn't in that trailer at all

SE confirmed that was actually a mistake though - it really was meant to be actually Nidhogg in the Heavensward opening movie and not Hraesvelgr. Apparently Square Enix Visual Works (who made the trailer) were given the wrong concept art and thus rendered Hraesvelgr in that scene by mistake, and by the time the FFXIV Development Team discovered this error, it was too late to change it, so they just handwaved it away.

This isn't the first time after all that a FFXIV CG cutscene has had a lore/setting contradiction in that was revealed to be an error made by SE Visual Works (Derplander's elezen BLM party member in End of an Era is actually meant to be the female GLA from the Echo scene in the original 1.0 opening and not the male elezen he was chatting with in the Adventurer's Guild, 1.0's opening movie featuring a totally different design for the Adventurer's Guild complete with aetheryte in the centre and adventurers using all kinds of crazy attacks that were never available in the game).

So basically, don't take that scene as gospel as far as the story is concerned, and just enjoy it for what it is, a thrilling introduction to the expansion. ;)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

No, the WoL doesn't fight Nidhogg in the trailer

He fights Hraesvelgr.

Nidhogg isn't in that trailer at all

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I knew you would say that, thats why I explained that we dont fight Hraesvelgr. It was a mistake, it was supposed to be Nidhogg.

So when are we getting that eight man version of the Aery from the benchmark?

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Originally Posted by Laili

So when are we getting that eight man version of the Aery from the benchmark?

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Thats why is a benchark. What happens there isnt applied to the game.
I'm a bit confused on what are you tring to say.

If 3.3 is really gonna be the big final showdown with Niddy it just strikes me as a bit anticlimactic if it was gonna be relegated to a 4 man instance is all.

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Originally Posted by Laili

If 3.3 is really gonna be the big final showdown with Niddy it just strikes me as a bit anticlimactic if it was gonna be relegated to a 4 man instance is all.

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Chancers are it will either be a Solo thing (which might make it MORE anticlimatic, or a Primal-irrelevant trial like the Relic ones, Nabriales, Steps of Faith, and the Hildabrand Trials (save maybe the one with Enkidu).

This makes it likely that 3.3 will have 2 Trials

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Originally Posted by Laili

If 3.3 is really gonna be the big final showdown with Niddy it just strikes me as a bit anticlimactic if it was gonna be relegated to a 4 man instance is all.

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It depends on how it's pulled off. I'd love a lengthy, flashy fight and ideally as 'Minstrel's Ballad' retelling so we get to fight him as 'intended'.

Extra points if he kills Aymeric because we need a major NPC to actually die and stay dead for Nidhogg to feel like a threat - especially since his 'plan' conveniently involves him staying back and not assaulting Ishgard directly. To be honest I wish they'd have made it so that Nidhogg tainted Ishgard's water supply with dragon blood to turn numerous elezen into crazed dragons who caused chaos from within Ishgard. Yet that didn't/won't happen now.

I think a hidden trial is quite likely. That said there could be some major curveballs that change things and frankly due to the nature of Estinien's possession our final fight against Nidhogg could quite likely be inside Estinien's soul, kind of like in a dream scape. We have the echo so I wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we use it to dive in there and separate them.

The fact he is on the Steps of Faith makes sense. The Steps hold the wards which protect Ishgard and even if it hasn't been repaired the final seal is still intacted and would need to be removed.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It depends on how it's pulled off. I'd love a lengthy, flashy fight and ideally as 'Minstrel's Ballad' retelling so we get to fight him as 'intended'.

Extra points if he kills Aymeric because we need a major NPC to actually die and stay dead for Nidhogg to feel like a threat - especially since his 'plan' conveniently involves him staying back and not assaulting Ishgard directly. To be honest I wish they'd have made it so that Nidhogg tainted Ishgard's water supply with dragon blood to turn numerous elezen into crazed dragons who caused chaos from within Ishgard. Yet that didn't/won't happen now.

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Why do you want any of those things to happen? Just for the sake of drama?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Why do you want any of those things to happen? Just for the sake of drama?

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Its a valid concern that the Horde could have its final battle end up underwhelming. I mean this is supposed to be a force that has tormented Ishgard for a thousand years.

That said I'd prefer something more grand and I don't really like the idea of killing off Aymeric. That's not because I have an issue with them killing characters. Its because narratively Aymeric is the linch pin that holds Ishgard together currently and they don't really have characters that can fill in that role. I want a conclusion to Ishgard's current situation, even if it isn't a permanent one, so the MSQ can start to move on to other things apart from Ishgardian politics. Aymeric represents what keeps Ishgard's internal conflicts from overflowing. Ishgard's issues aren't going to vanish overnight and their needs to be a narrative explaination on why we don't end up tied down there. Aymeric managing the fires fits that bill.

I also think a more direct attack would be better. Perhaps a weapon that started to effect the essense in Ishgardians bodies, crippling them or driving them mad. I think after a thousand years of conflict things like the Water supply would be very heavily guarded as the dragons have used agents plenty before. Hell, the times Ishgard has been infiltrated before in several cases been allowed by the Holy See to incite fear and encourage religious fervour.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

SE confirmed that was actually a mistake though - it really was meant to be actually Nidhogg in the Heavensward opening movie and not Hraesvelgr. Apparently Square Enix Visual Works (who made the trailer) were given the wrong concept art and thus rendered Hraesvelgr in that scene by mistake, and by the time the FFXIV Development Team discovered this error, it was too late to change it, so they just handwaved it away.

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Handwaved and turned red, which I believe was their way of salvaging it.

"See, totally not Hraesvelgr, cause he's a different color." :p

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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Oh I'm sure something is gonna happen within Ishgard or near it when 3.3 lands, but whether or not it will be underwhelming is up in the air. After all, Steps of Faith was pretty epic before the nerfs came, but then people couldn't clear it reliably, so the conclusion to the Dragonsong War may be an easy mode. What I was getting at previously was there has to be meaning behind whatever new conflict/problem you introduce or it's going to not hold much meaning, which is why I questioned what good is killing Aymeric going to do. I just don't like characters dying just for the sake of tension or drama. Death needs to have meaning and have lasting impact (something you see in the WOL where they're still hung up over Haurchefant, Estinien, and Yasayle dying in 3.0) not be reduced to a cheap $5 filler from McDonald's.


And speaking of stuff like tainting the water to turn everyone into dragons, Nidhogg would never do that. He's all about making people suffer forever, so him using an instant "I win" button would go against it.

Maybe getting rekt and having to bodyjack a mortal to come back from the grave changed his outlook a bit, who knows. I mean I doubt it'll be that way myself but they could easily explain it if they did decide to go that route.

Is this the Live Letter lore opinion thread now?

I hope for more Hraesvelgr before we head to Estinihogg. I feel like we didn't get enough of him, like there was more planned that was eventually cut for time (which is what I get a lot from Heavensward lore, really). I also agree that the Horde never really felt like much of a threat; the biggest time they were threatening was Steps of Faith.

I think the way it'll work is, we'll face Hraesvelgr so he can test us to see if we can withstand a fully-powered Dragon Lord and then he'll send us off to Nidhogg and we'll face Estinhogg in what'll be a two part battle.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Why do you want any of those things to happen? Just for the sake of drama?

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No, not for the sake of 'drama'. For the sake of antagonists actually being a genuine threat and succeeding from time to time. War isn't pretty - and that's a theme that the game is hinting at. Matoya's speech springs to mind. I just hope they're going to follow through with it this time around rather than pull another 'Ul'dah' where the status quo doesn't change.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

No, not for the sake of 'drama'. For the sake of antagonists actually being a genuine threat and succeeding from time to time. War isn't pretty - and that's a theme that the game is hinting at. Matoya's speech springs to mind. I just hope they're going to follow through with it this time around rather than pull another 'Ul'dah' where the status quo doesn't change.

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You need to lighten up a little. I suggest watching One Piece. The number of characters who die outside of flashbacks can be counted on one hand, but it nonetheless manages to fairly consistently illustrate and escalate the threat of its main antagonists.

If you feel a story is failing to convey threat levels properly, that's a problem that killing people won't magically solve.

I don't feel like I need to 'lighten up' though your concern is very touching. :)

On a more serious note, though? I'm very passionate about FFXIV's story. I just feel like all the awesome world building is all going to be for naught if we get another 'Ul'dah' situation.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

You need to lighten up a little. I suggest watching One Piece. The number of characters who die outside of flashbacks can be counted on one hand, but it nonetheless manages to fairly consistently illustrate and escalate the threat of its main antagonists.

If you feel a story is failing to convey threat levels properly, that's a problem that killing people won't magically solve.

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It's not the only way to convey a threat, but it's certainly a very good way, and one SE has employed to an extent. After all, Aymeric will be very high on the Horde's target list, and he is not an exceptionally great combatant. Good, but not great. It's not like they haven't got a very good replacement for him, in the form of Artoirel, if need be.

Not sure what "lightening up" has to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

No, not for the sake of 'drama'. For the sake of antagonists actually being a genuine threat and succeeding from time to time. War isn't pretty - and that's a theme that the game is hinting at. Matoya's speech springs to mind. I just hope they're going to follow through with it this time around rather than pull another 'Ul'dah' where the status quo doesn't change.

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He [Theodric] has a point, especially since the whole point of Heavensward is to change the status quo of Ishgard from "zealous theocracy" to "member of the Eorzean Allience", plus the plot has to leave this place eventually and focus on other places like say... Ala Mhigo or Sharlayan, and lets be honest, I think people would rather leave in a worse position then leave it unchanged.

Yeah, however Ishgard has suffered quite a bit. With that being said, the deaths we have seen were inflicted by Garlemald and the Heavensward itself. So far, the Dravanian Horde has done one thing and that is to prise Estinien from Ishgard, but nothing beyond that. Now that he is at the apogee of his power once more, I think we can expect some death, since that is primarily what Nidhogg is known for, and what his powers result in... I have a feeling that they might kill Lucia before Aymeric, though.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It's not the only way to convey a threat, but it's certainly a very good way, and one SE has employed to an extent. After all, Aymeric will be very high on the Horde's target list, and he is not an exceptionally great combatant. Good, but not great. It's not like they haven't got a very good replacement for him, in the form of Artoirel, if need be.

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If somebody who dies ends up being replaced that easily, the entire value of that character's life becomes undercut to the point of rendering their death meaningless. I know series like A Song of Ice and Fire get held up as "ooh, so edgy and realistic, people can die and stay dead!" but those same people seem to miss that death matters in ASOIF precisely because the world will never find a replacement for people like Rhaegar Targaryen or Eddard Stark. Instead, everything just slides further and further out of control for lack of the people who were holding it together, and portraying that sort of world is beyond the limitations of FFXIV's system.

In regards to the idea of "the bad guys should win sometimes", it's not a "bad" idea per se, but how it is executed can be a very delicate matter. While the story is strong here, we are the ones that are controlling the Warrior of Light and feel that we are them. If what we do or did gets easily undone by the antagonists for whatever reasons, people will cry foul because "they could have stopped it/[insert reasons here]", just like people did when the Sultana "died" and the WOL got arrested. I get that some things need change, but handled poorly, it's going to look cheap.

Don't forget that they have the ultimate switcharoo card that can be played at a choice time - The Warrior(s) of Darkness. It could go Evil Willow at any moment!

Estenien will die.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Estenien will die.

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Its gonna be really weird doing the DRG quests after 3.3 if that's the case.

It's possible that he'll die but...I don't think he will. There's a lot of similarities between Estinien and Kain Highwind. I predict that he - like Kain - will 'get better' and go into some sort of self imposed exile; showing up now and then to help out Alphinaud and the WoL. Perhaps he'll focus his efforts on hunting down the remnants of Nidhogg's forces.

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Originally Posted by Laili

Its gonna be really weird doing the DRG quests after 3.3 if that's the case.

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*kills him, then decides to try out DRG*

OH HAI ESTINEIN!

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Originally Posted by Fenral

If somebody who dies ends up being replaced that easily, the entire value of that character's life becomes undercut to the point of rendering their death meaningless.

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On the other hand, the only catchers that die in FFXIV are people who no longer have a role in the story. They need no replacement and their death has no repercussions than be dramatic. The deaths we've had have no major impact in the story do so far. They could have been replaced with " heavily injured for a year" and the story would have remained the same.

I was annoyed by the reversal of Nanamo's "death." If she actually died, the story worlwould have taken a different arc than it is now.

What if Nidhogg is killed by the WOD because of something something protecting the balance ( I'm pretty sure the ascians haven't done any plotting with nidhogg right?) And fight the WOL( 8 man trial maybe) While on the way to the moon, or would this be to quick in the story as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Powe

What if Nidhogg is killed by the WOD because of something something protecting the balance ( I'm pretty sure the ascians haven't done any plotting with nidhogg right?) And fight the WOL( 8 man trial maybe) While on the way to the moon, or would this be to quick in the story as a whole?

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I don't think the WOD has any involvement with the Dragonsong War and I would be GREATLY upset if he killed Nidhogg instead of us since we have been doing all the work in regards to the dragon problem. As far as I know from the story, it's implied that the Ascians might have prodded the Ishgardians 1000 years ago to attack Ratatoskr for her power (remember, Ascians LOVE chaos)