What is "Sustained DPS"?

How would you define "Sustained DPS"? No context, just define it as you would see fit based on your knowledge of the game and other MMOs / games you have played in the past.

Thank you.

For context, there's a discussion going on in the healer forum about what "sustained DPS" actually means as there are two potential definitions (based on the discussion) of it based on MMO history. I'm curious to see which side of the fence XIV falls onto. You can poke at the healer forum if you're curious to see it.

I'd say its the amount of damage you do consistently throughout the duration of the fight?

Sustained DPS
[suh-steynd dee-pee-es]
noun
1. the delivery of damage throughout an encounter with little variance from the mean damage over time
2. the delivery of a high amount of damage over a prolonged period of time
see also: burst DPS


burst DPS
[burst dee-pee-es]
noun
1. the delivery of damage during a short portion of an encounter where damage output is much higher than mean damage over time
2. the delivery of a high amount of damage in a short amount of time
3. delivery of damage during an encounter that alternates periods of higher than mean damage over time and lower than mean damage over time
see also: sustained DPS

After referencing the aforementioned Healer thread, I guess it's relevant to note that my definitions make no consideration for "sustainability" based on resource availability. I only considered how the damage at a given time interval t differs from the mean.

Pretty much that, burst dps is over a 20-30 second span with CDs used, sustained dps is the dps over the duration of a fight. Or I guess you could call it the dps outside the burst phase, is that what the discussion is about?

The answers so far are the most correct I think. If we need something solid and "testable" in an objective sense, I would say it is the value your average DPS would converge on as the duration of the fight approaches infinity.

I consider it the average or the minimum/lull dps that you put out, depending on the terms its being compared to or the kind of fights its being consider for.

In (over-simplified) comparison, "burst" dps, for instance might end before your cooldowns have half cooled (always greater than "average") or until their durations end, while in "sustained" dps the cooldowns have half or more cooled (potentially average) since use, proportioning or devaluing their effect.

However, ramp-ups and other factors not allowing successive attacks, full use of debuffs, etc. would also come into consideration. While neither aspect is necessarily "burst" or "sustained", "sustained" would tend to lend more to the idea of "even if things don't go ideally".

To me, it is Just the dps inflicted by the dots ? That is the dps you're doing whenever you're not directly dpsing.
But i might be wrong ^^

Since most of CDs in the game are multiplicative, they will mostly be used together, over a short time, which is your burst dps. Such CDs are RS, pots, B4B, IR, Litany, Hawks Eye, etc. It includes other things such as swiftcast, which you'll be using to push out as much damage while your buffs are active. Typically, everyone will burst at the very beginning of a fight, as all of your CDs are available to line up, this is your opener.

When they drop, you are down to your "normal" rotation, without buffs, and this is your sustained dps, that is, the dps you can sustain without being inflated by buffs. Note some damage-increasing buffs can still be considered here, such as heavy thrust, enoch, straight shot, hotshot etc, although being damage-increasing buffs, these should be up 24/7 anyway, so are not relegated to only being burst. You generally re-use your CDs as they come back up, so your sustained dps can be considered as "the rest of the fight" outside of your opener, unless the fight has a particular point where you need to do a lot of damage very quickly later on, you may hold some CDs back for that point, so you can burst again.

That is my interpretation of it anyway

I give you a example from WoW:

Sustain DPS:
Mutilate or Combat Rogue. High and constant DPS. No real peaks down or up. Even with CDs or the CDs are just normal part of the sustain.

Burst DPS:
Fury Warrior, low and peaking constant DPS with high peak DPS with CDs.

Sustained DPS is the DPS over a longer period, compared to burst DPS over a shorter period. It is the accumulative DPS without many interruptions, sometimes.

For example;

"This DRG had crazy DPS! But the MNK would probably sustain more if we lasted longer that run."


MNK is a fine example of sustained. We don't do burst DPS, we don't rely on many cooldowns even if we TRIED to burst more. Both DRG and NIN can bust more than MNK easily, and I often find this to be true in my own experience.


Most DPS; DRG, NIN, MCH, BRD, BLM, + WAR(even though it's a tank.)

The only real sustained DPS classes have are SMN and MNK and SMN is iffy cause yes they can burst and the only reason I count them is because they use DoT's

Thanks for the feedback and responses everyone.

Pretty much discussion is boiling down to the, in my opinion, the "exact definition of sustained DPS" and I wanted to make sure I would use the context correctly for the game just to avoid future confusion.

I'll probably keep mentioning "sustained DPS" for myself just because I believe most players understand what that means in practical applications.

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

Considering its about healers... been doing SSS dummies on SCH and WHM.

WHM has extremely high burst (hence the dummy requires more damage to beat) but if you do SSS you will notice by the end on the 3 min time you will barely have any mana for any cast left. I managed to OOM at 3% and couldn't best dummy due to that while 10s left on one of em XD

SCH has that "sustained" DPS assuming it is the "longer DPS uptime" at the end of an SSS dummy my MP at at 80-98% full mana due to all the Energy Drains and Aetherflow.

This is basically the reason why people want SCH to DPS while the other heals, even tho WHM and AST have the burst... it just has the better manamanagement while doing said DPS and the fairy does the rest...

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Originally Posted by Pells

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

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B-But there's never a lull period where you're regaining TP/MP (unless you're a BLM/DRK where MP management is your gimmick). TP should be a constant drain from start to finish. If it's not, your DPS is suffering, hard. The burst regen from Invigorate every 2m doesn't really count as a period of regaining TP.

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

This is basically the reason why people want SCH to DPS while the other heals, even tho WHM and AST have the burst... it just has the better manamanagement while doing said DPS and the fairy does the rest...

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It's less about Mana and more about utility. Healers are not DPS. They can do DPS, but they are not DPS. Their Job is healing, first and foremost. When a SCH is doing DPS, their Fairy picks up some of the slack. When the WHM is doing DPS, they're just not healing at all outside of maybe having HoTs flowing.

Fact is: WHM+Fairy is better raid heals in the majority of situations than SCH+Fairy, due to WHM's burst heal capabilities with Divine Seal, Presence of Mind, Assize, Med II, and Cure III. SCH has tools as well (Fey Illumination, Dissipation, Emergency Tactics, Whispering Dawn), but 2/4 of those are Fairy skills - and they're the two most powerful skills in that arsenal.


I didn't add to the discussion of Sustained DPS, because I feel it was quite sufficiently answered on the first page in the Burst v Sustained way.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

B-But there's never a lull period where you're regaining TP/MP (unless you're a BLM/DRK where MP management is your gimmick). TP should be a constant drain from start to finish. If it's not, your DPS is suffering, hard. The burst regen from Invigorate every 2m doesn't really count as a period of regaining TP.

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As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

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Originally Posted by Pells

As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

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Lol.. how technical can u get dude.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

Lol.. how technical can u get dude.

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check out the DRG thread

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Originally Posted by Morzy

Lol.. how technical can u get dude.

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When defining technical jargon, such as 'sustained dps'? As technical as I need to be.

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Originally Posted by Pells

As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

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I don't exactly know what in this argues against what I'm saying in my post. Your TP is a constant drain. The way you said it originally:

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Originally Posted by Pells

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

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implies that you would stop attacking to regenerate resources which you call "lull and maintenance" periods - which flat out do not exist when discussing dps. You burn your resource until it's out, and then you deal with it until your next resource boost (Goad, Invigorate, Aetherflow, Shroud, etc) rolls around.

The way you explained it sounds like you don't understand how DPS works in this game, because you're talking about things that are just... non-existent? Unless you ARE talking about the points where your resources have dwindled to zero, in which case why are you here talking about DPS and referencing points that are literal non-issues in quite honestly every situation where such a point would matter?

When discussing "sustained DPS" - you can't consider it in a vacuum. You can't create some "ideal world" where these sorts of things matter, because if you discuss Job balance in a world like that, so far removed from the world we actually play in, you cannot draw ANY realistic conclusions about the Jobs in the contexts that matter. And the only conclusions that matter in a discussion of DPS are ones which can be applied to the game in realistic circumstances.

Most people I play with consider it the average damage output over the span of 3-5 minutes of attacking a single target, with no externally applied buffs or debuffs. Not just burst damage, but auto-attack, dots, and everything in between, added up. Food, pots and FC buffs are allowed.

TLDR: What is your solo dps average (over 5 minutes) against a lvl 60 sparring dummy?

Parse a dummy for 10-15+ mins. If you make a few mistakes, that's ok, but try to keep your rotation ideal. Your dps will average out. You will minimize outlier lucky proc/crit streaks or unlucky no-proc/crit streaks. This is sustainable dps in a vaccuum. Battles add mechanics and down times that will tend to reduce your dps further, unless you can abuse damage vulnerability phases, aoe or multi dot on multiple targets, or buffs from party members you can't get by yourself on a dummy..

Isn't the general idea that sustained DPS means DPS you can do over a longer time (Your average DPS) and burst DPS the peak moments you tend to have with DPS cooldowns active?

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Originally Posted by JackFross

When discussing "sustained DPS" - you can't consider it in a vacuum. You can't create some "ideal world" where these sorts of things matter, because if you discuss Job balance in a world like that, so far removed from the world we actually play in, you cannot draw ANY realistic conclusions about the Jobs in the contexts that matter. And the only conclusions that matter in a discussion of DPS are ones which can be applied to the game in realistic circumstances.

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When discussing it, no. When defining what the phrase means, you have to consider it 'in a vacuum'. Answering "Well it depends where you are, and what you're doing, along with who you've got with you. And what gear you have." isn't very much of a definition. We're not talking about job balance. We're not even talking about FFXIV specifically. We're talking about vocabulary.

As for lull times, I take it you've never experienced a fight with forced downtime? Phase transitions? Randomly targeted players being stuned/caged? Mechanics you have to stop dps for in order to handle?

As for maintenance, I guess you've never seen a BLM use Umbral Ice. Or heard of Second Wind or Goad. Or had to wait on any of your cooldowns because they're always up forever.

Oh, wait.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

deal with it until your next resource boost (Goad, Invigorate, Aetherflow, Shroud, etc) rolls around

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And here I thought you didn't understand what running out of resources meant. Yes, you deal with it. You don't 'stop attacking'. But it still lowers the dps you can do, and it's part of your sustained output. This is what I'm calling maintenance.

There are burst dps rotations for a reason. Anything that isn't burst is base dps. Any time where you can't attack is a lull. Sustained dps is all of these together.

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Originally Posted by Pells

When discussing it, no. When defining what the phrase means, you have to consider it 'in a vacuum'. Answering "Well it depends where you are, and what you're doing, along with who you've got with you. And what gear you have." isn't very much of a definition. We're not talking about job balance. We're not even talking about FFXIV specifically. We're talking about vocabulary.

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When you're posting in an FFXIV forum about a definition, it's heavily implied to be a direct reference to how that definition is applied to FFXIV. Because this is a reference to FFXIV, you need to then consider what sustained dps means - and, more importantly, how it matters - in FFXIV. The amount of DPS you can do in a 10-15 minute parse with no outside sustain, including periods where your TP/MP bottoms out and you're stuck using one attack per 3+ seconds is a meaningless measure of DPS in the context of FFXIV where such a situation never exists in any situation in any content in the game unless you straight up shoot yourself in the foot by missing a shot of maintenance.

So, no. You still shouldn't be considering it in a vacuum.

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As for lull times, I take it you've never experienced a fight with forced downtime? Phase transitions? Randomly targeted players being stuned/caged? Mechanics you have to stop dps for in order to handle?

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Yeah, I'm not a raider currently at 8% on A7S - I have no idea what these things mean. Can you stop and explain these definitions to me? I'm clearly missing where any of this is relevant to the above discussion of YOUR incorrect definition of sustained DPS. You're talking about two completely different things. In one breath, you're saying sustained DPS needs to be measured in a vacuum and then in the next, you're likening the forced downtime of encounters to the arbitrary/nonexistent/inconsequential downtime in your vacuum measurements. You know, the lull periods that don't exist because of the downtime in encounters.

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As for maintenance, I guess you've never seen a BLM use Umbral Ice. Or heard of Second Wind or Goad. Or had to wait on any of your cooldowns because they're always up forever.

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Yeah, I don't have BLM at 60 and I have never played with it extensively in dungeons, Void Ark, and Midas Normal raids. I also don't raid with a NIN who has Goad, nor do I main DRG with traited Invigorate. And yeah, I also definitely don't know the pain of having a 3-minute cooldown and waiting on it between pulls on clear attempts. You're right. You've got me pegged so well!

In addition - Second Wind has quite literally nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know why you included it there, unless its intention is to show how little you know about the topic being discussed by confusing Invigorate and Second Wind.

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And here I thought you didn't understand what running out of resources meant. Yes, you deal with it. You don't 'stop attacking'. But it still lowers the dps you can do, and it's part of your sustained output. This is what I'm calling maintenance.

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Yes. This is a thing that happens when you mismanage your resource management skills throughout an encounter. Because resource management is an important part of every DPS Job in the game. An even more important part of every DPS Job in the game is maintaining DPS through Mechanic interruptions. Learning to keep maximum uptime (the best buff in the game) while properly handling Mechanics that try really hard to shoot your DPS in the foot.

As such - every single fight in the game makes your insane definition of sustained DPS an absolutely meaningless description of how effective a Job is at dealing damage, because there exist no encounters in the entire game where such a definition carries any weight at all, of your own admission.

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There are burst dps rotations for a reason. Anything that isn't burst is base dps. Any time where you can't attack is a lull. Sustained dps is all of these together.

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Except - lull periods are sporadic and based on the fight, not the Job. Comparing two Jobs on the same fight and including these identical lull periods is precisely the same as measuring each DPS Job based on what they can do during the non-lull periods and then comparing those numbers. And that's what I'm trying to say when I'm talking about a more accurate description of sustained DPS. It's what you can do when given the opportunity to beat on a boss for a reasonable length of time that's relatively standard in encounter design in this game.

There is no situation - ever - in this entire game where you will be slamming away on a boss for 10+ minutes straight, so measuring how much "sustained" DPS you can do over that duration, including when your TP slams into the floor, is absolutely worthless, in my opinion. It doesn't tell you anything of any sort of worth related to how a particular Job or character will perform in an instance.

Sure, your dictionary definition is correct, but it's not useful. In my opinion, a definition of a game concept should be useful and should be able to be applied to the game you're defining it for in a meaningful way. If it can't, it's not an appropriate definition.

I don't believe most classes have a different "burst dps" rotation. The closest thing is the opener.

Sustained dps in my opinion, by relevance, is your ability to maintain your optimal rotation/cooldown management throughout an encounter, while handling mechanics.

So you have a BRD who, for example can do 2k+ opener and that's your "burst dps"? he would end the fight with 1300, and that's sustained? I guess I'm not sure what the end goal is here, why do you ask?