[IDEA] Crafting Mini-Game Redesign Concept

Hello

I'm going to outline a new concept for the crafting "mini-game" in this post. I would like some feedback / discussion and with enough oomph maybe one day, far off from now, something resembling this idea could be our crafting mini-game.

Let me add a DISCLAIMER here to say, I do understand the development team has a huge burden on their shoulders with the 2.0 roadmap / revamp and a lot of work to do. The idea I'm proposing would be something for 2.0 or beyond, basically whenever they have the resources available to allocate to revamping the crafting system.

Background:

You can skip this section if you would like to. Basically, a lot of people... ok most people in my opinion find the crafting in this game to be incredibly stale. Aside from myself in this thread, there are literally dozens of threads on the forums about how lame and "grindy" crafting is. Even posts about what to do while you just press ENTER for a million times; like watching TV, playing other games, reading, etc..

I would say a huge majority of people do something other than watch their screen while they craft and that's kind of sad. That really makes it appear to be a grind and that the crafting system has no fun to it what so ever.

I'd reference a post to one of these threads but there are so many it's hard to choose from... I'll use the one that's currently on the front page:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/28917-Super-mega-grind

^Read that for some laughs and additional background.

Concept:

---Intro---

Alright and now to the meat of this thread. So what can we do to make crafting more interactive and more of a "mini-game" and take away some of the grind associated with it?

The idea actually came to me today, but reminded me of another game I used to play as a kid... Mario Party.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thum...razyCutter.png

For those of you who aren't familiar with this, you are given the outline of a character from the Mario series and have to "draw" them. The person who is the closest to the actual picture is the winner.

The difficulty comes from the pen (it's actually a Jackhammer in Mario Party) constantly moving forward and you have to react and direct where it goes. Obviously staying inside/on the lines is good and straying too far from the picture is not good.

---Concept in FFXIV---

So, my proposal is adapt this concept to the current FFXIV crafting system! Each piece of gear has a design associated with it. Not every piece of gear has to be unique, so their can be duplication in some areas (masks, some helms, armor, etc..) but their could be a majority of different looking patterns / outlines.

Your goal as a crafter is to trace the outline as it is displayed and make as little error as possible.

Going outside of the pattern would cause you to lose durability; reaching zero will cause you to fail.

Making too many mistakes in a row can cause an unstable / chaotic effect which will cause your synth to fail if you make X amount of mistakes in the next few seconds.

At the start of each synth you are given 3 options; Standard, Rapid, Bold.
These will essentially work the same way they do now where:
Standard synth will move the 'Orb' at a normal pace (thus giving a medium difficulty)
Rapid synth will move the 'Orb' at a fast pace (making the synth a lot harder, but would be used more for the "easy" synths or parts)
Bold synth will move the 'Orb' at a much slower pace (making the synth take a lot longer to complete but also make the 'Orb' control a bit more sluggish; to add difficulty)

---Crafting Stats---

Some examples of crafting stats and how they could play a role still.

Control will give you better steering and sharpness over the 'Orb' as it moves.

Craftsmanship && Magic Craftsmanship will function as they do currently; affecting the item you synth


---Class Skills / Abilities---

This is the trickier part... what do we do with the abilities? I was thinking that same synths would have multiple patterns that you had to 'draw'. And at the start of each new pattern there is a chance (just like there is now) for the ability to appear on the list for you to choose.

Or a second possibility might be to have the crafter use them prior to beginning the synth and give them a certain cooldown. So they can either wait X amount of minutes to use them again.

---Design Example---

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...6df100a03e.jpg

First, I hope you can all see this. If not let me know and I'll fix the link.

In this concept picture, there are four examples of possible patterns.

The first image is a very basic, low level, shield. As you can see it's very simple outline and should be relatively easy to make. You would have low risk in doing this as there aren't a lot of turns or design elements.

The second image is an example of a possible high difficulty, top tier, shield. This would take some serious maneuverability (control and precision) to do well. This would up the "skill" factor in crafting. Imagine if you had to do each one of those leaves from the main circular part, as well as 4 outer branches as design elements. Getting an HQ on this would be something not so easy to achieve.

The third image is another basic example of a shirt that could be made my a weaver, again very simple and easy to make.

The fourth image was to show that some pieces could have "multiple design outlines" and after the completion of one pattern, the orb moves to the next piece, and the next, and so on until you have completed all the pieces.

---Page Break---

If you're with me this far, I think you have an idea of how this could add more diversity, fun, and skill to the crafting system. It would really give those hardcore crafters something to brag about and get rid of the monotony that exists in the crafting grind.


---HQ Crafting---

Of course there would be some luck involved still, but High Quality synth would be achievable from this system.

We can keep the progress bar, and have that be a factor of what % of accuracy you have maintained. So if you did an exact perfect trace of the pattern and got 100% accuracy (or progress) and your durability was high you have a chance to get a High Quality product.

In the same regards, if you did an 'OK' job you would get a NQ item.

And lastly if you did a terrible / sloppy job (<60% - concept percent) the synth COULD fail. Again, as I said before if your durability hits 0; you fail automatically. This would add a lot of RISK in the mix.


---Conclusion---

That concludes my crafting redesign concept. I wrote this in segments but I hope it's understandable for all of you.


Questions / Comments / Concerns please feel free to discuss.

If you LIKE this idea, you know what to do :cool:




**I reserve the right to modify / adjust this thread, as the discussion moves forward**

Hmmm looks like this wasn't an interesting topic today... wrong crowd on the forums right now I guess

I disapprove.

I'm all for making the crafting game more interesting, but this
1. Would be much easier for keyboard+mouse users than for gamepad/PS3 users, and even easier for Tablet+Stylus users (Edit: Unless mouse input was disabled, in which case it'd be easier for gamepad users because keyboards suck at precise movement). While it's impossible to make a game that isn't easier to play with one input mechanism or the other, asking people to buy peripheral hardware in order to be good at crafting is too much. The ease of use should purely be convenience, not power.
2. Would be way too easy to write a bot to play perfectly. While bots will always be there, if the bots are playing better than the players are it's a problem.

In order for a crafting redesign to work it has to have most of the work be done inside the player's brain, based off of some language, image, or strategic problem that humans are better at dealing with than computers are.

I have my own prototype system, but it's not quite playable yet and I want to wait until it is before I post it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RemVye

Hello

I'm going to outline a new concept for the crafting "mini-game" in this post. I would like some feedback / discussion and with enough oomph maybe one day, far off from now, something resembling this idea could be our crafting mini-game.

Let me add a DISCLAIMER here to say, I do understand the development team has a huge burden on their shoulders with the 2.0 roadmap / revamp and a lot of work to do. The idea I'm proposing would be something for 2.0 or beyond, basically whenever they have the resources available to allocate to revamping the crafting system.

Background:

You can skip this section if you would like to. Basically, a lot of people... ok most people in my opinion find the crafting in this game to be incredibly stale. Aside from myself in this thread, there are literally dozens of threads on the forums about how lame and "grindy" crafting is. Even posts about what to do while you just press ENTER for a million times; like watching TV, playing other games, reading, etc..

I would say a huge majority of people do something other than watch their screen while they craft and that's kind of sad. That really makes it appear to be a grind and that the crafting system has no fun to it what so ever.

I'd reference a post to one of these threads but there are so many it's hard to choose from... I'll use the one that's currently on the front page:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...per-mega-grind

^Read that for some laughs and additional background.

Concept:

---Intro---

Alright and now to the meat of this thread. So what can we do to make crafting more interactive and more of a "mini-game" and take away some of the grind associated with it?

The idea actually came to me today, but reminded me of another game I used to play as a kid... Mario Party.

http://www.mariowiki.com/images/thum...razyCutter.png

For those of you who aren't familiar with this, you are given the outline of a character from the Mario series and have to "draw" them. The person who is the closest to the actual picture is the winner.

The difficulty comes from the pen (it's actually a Jackhammer in Mario Party) constantly moving forward and you have to react and direct where it goes. Obviously staying inside/on the lines is good and straying too far from the picture is not good.

---Concept in FFXIV---

So, my proposal is adapt this concept to the current FFXIV crafting system! Each piece of gear has a design associated with it. Not every piece of gear has to be unique, so their can be duplication in some areas (masks, some helms, armor, etc..) but their could be a majority of different looking patterns / outlines.

Your goal as a crafter is to trace the outline as it is displayed and make as little error as possible.

Going outside of the pattern would cause you to lose durability; reaching zero will cause you to fail.

Making too many mistakes in a row can cause an unstable / chaotic effect which will cause your synth to fail if you make X amount of mistakes in the next few seconds.

At the start of each synth you are given 3 options; Standard, Rapid, Bold.
These will essentially work the same way they do now where:
Standard synth will move the 'Orb' at a normal pace (thus giving a medium difficulty)
Rapid synth will move the 'Orb' at a fast pace (making the synth a lot harder, but would be used more for the "easy" synths or parts)
Bold synth will move the 'Orb' at a much slower pace (making the synth take a lot longer to complete but also make the 'Orb' control a bit more sluggish; to add difficulty)

---Crafting Stats---

Some examples of crafting stats and how they could play a role still.

Control will give you better steering and sharpness over the 'Orb' as it moves.

Craftsmanship && Magic Craftsmanship will function as they do currently; affecting the item you synth


---Class Skills / Abilities---

This is the trickier part... what do we do with the abilities? I was thinking that same synths would have multiple patterns that you had to 'draw'. And at the start of each new pattern there is a chance (just like there is now) for the ability to appear on the list for you to choose.

Or a second possibility might be to have the crafter use them prior to beginning the synth and give them a certain cooldown. So they can either wait X amount of minutes to use them again.

---Design Example---

http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...6df100a03e.jpg

First, I hope you can all see this. If not let me know and I'll fix the link.

In this concept picture, there are four examples of possible patterns.

The first image is a very basic, low level, shield. As you can see it's very simple outline and should be relatively easy to make. You would have low risk in doing this as there aren't a lot of turns or design elements.

The second image is an example of a possible high difficulty, top tier, shield. This would take some serious maneuverability (control and precision) to do well. This would up the "skill" factor in crafting. Imagine if you had to do each one of those leaves from the main circular part, as well as 4 outer branches as design elements. Getting an HQ on this would be something not so easy to achieve.

The third image is another basic example of a shirt that could be made my a weaver, again very simple and easy to make.

The fourth image was to show that some pieces could have "multiple design outlines" and after the completion of one pattern, the orb moves to the next piece, and the next, and so on until you have completed all the pieces.

---Page Break---

If you're with me this far, I think you have an idea of how this could add more diversity, fun, and skill to the crafting system. It would really give those hardcore crafters something to brag about and get rid of the monotony that exists in the crafting grind.


---HQ Crafting---

Of course there would be some luck involved still, but High Quality synth would be achievable from this system.

We can keep the progress bar, and have that be a factor of what % of accuracy you have maintained. So if you did an exact perfect trace of the pattern and got 100% accuracy (or progress) and your durability was high you have a chance to get a High Quality product.

In the same regards, if you did an 'OK' job you would get a NQ item.

And lastly if you did a terrible / sloppy job (<60% - concept percent) the synth COULD fail. Again, as I said before if your durability hits 0; you fail automatically. This would add a lot of RISK in the mix.


---Conclusion---

That concludes my crafting redesign concept. I wrote this in segments but I hope it's understandable for all of you.


Questions / Comments / Concerns please feel free to discuss.

If you LIKE this idea, you know what to do :cool:




**I reserve the right to modify / adjust this thread, as the discussion moves forward**

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I like it.

It's an interesting idea, and something like it definitely needs to come with or shortly after 2.0, but I share Misteyes's concern with peripherals. Something that requires a greater variety of input from the user, such as one that makes better use of timing, multiple highly distinct actions, and accumulated or learned knowledge would be preferable. While I applaud you for fleshing out your idea and starting this discussion, I think it would become tedious while simultaneously requiring concentration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragon

I like it.

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It reminds me of the excavation minigame in Spectrobes:Origins. The problem I see is that where is the random botch put in? The fact that there is a chance of failure affects its availability in the markets. So it shouldn't be completely controllable with player skill, ther reason being people will make guides on how to synth difficult items as far above their ranks as possible for....*drum roll* GRINDING PURPOSES! :)

The concept suggested imo would add to the time to craft rather then decrease it or speed it up in any way. In order to adjust crafting methods need to be developed that would improve the speed at which one can craft a large amount while crafting.

A few ideas come to mind of how this can happen.

For every synth there could be a "spiritbond" like concept where once you reach 100% your ability to synth said item is improved by 50% but you only earn the % on a succesful synth. But of course it wouldn't be as simple as every synth recipe having the same % like the 1-10 ones might take 50 synths to "master" 11-20 150, 31-40 300, 41-50 600 and then rarer more complex synths could take anywhere from 1000+ synths to master them.

By mastering a synth you obtain the following benefits which would always be the same for every synth.
-The Complete rate would only need to be 50% to finish, while you could still continue to 100% to obtain a higher chance for HQ upon reaching above 50% you are given the option to complete the synth.
-The success rate of all your actions are improved by 25% and the chance for ethereal spark is reduced by 25%
-The chance to HQ is improved by 15%
----------

Another concept for long haul synthing could be consecutive success. This only works when you are making the same synth over and over without changing like logs into lumber. When active at the start of every synth 10MP is consumed for your "Focus". Upon succeeding in a synth you are given a counter of you Focus.

The Focus itself would be static for any item being synthed as long as you don't break the chain. When you complete your first synth you obtain a .5% chance of succeeding. So if you have 200 synths and 2k MP you could in concept improve your odds of Success by 100%. Along with this .5% for every 10 successful synths your completion objective decreases by 5% with a cap of 25% so you could effectively complete a simple synth at 25% if you mastered said synth and have done 50 of the synths in a row. This concept is moreso for mass producing items without it getting to repetitive but giving an advantage for mass producing.

Now with the MP in mind once you run out of MP you can no longer gain Focus for the synth which means the focus you built up breaks and you have to recover MP to start again. With using MP it prevents a person from capping their Focus and then just going crazy on 30 stacks of the same synth lol. With this there is a necessary pause in the creation of an item.

While there are other ideas in mind I feel that these two above would work well in actually decreasing synthing time but without having to dumb it out or change the concept completely.

With the first concept it encourages people to synth to master a recipe so that they can do it more efficiently. As for the other concept with the ability of Focus one can learn to synth faster way before they Master it but it's not a concept that can always be used successfully while skilling up since failing one synth breaks the Focus you built up. While you could attempt to Focus on a synth 5-10 levels higher then you, one fail and your Focus breaks.

But ya, if there's one thing i'd like to hear from Yoshida next Thursday, I'd be interested in hearing more about where they plan on taking crafting and gathering. I hope we can get some of those answers and he's able to flesh them out more as a unique experience rather then a side activity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misteyes

I disapprove.

I'm all for making the crafting game more interesting, but this
1. Would be much easier for keyboard+mouse users than for gamepad/PS3 users, and even easier for Tablet+Stylus users (Edit: Unless mouse input was disabled, in which case it'd be easier for gamepad users because keyboards suck at precise movement). While it's impossible to make a game that isn't easier to play with one input mechanism or the other, asking people to buy peripheral hardware in order to be good at crafting is too much. The ease of use should purely be convenience, not power.
2. Would be way too easy to write a bot to play perfectly. While bots will always be there, if the bots are playing better than the players are it's a problem.

In order for a crafting redesign to work it has to have most of the work be done inside the player's brain, based off of some language, image, or strategic problem that humans are better at dealing with than computers are.

I have my own prototype system, but it's not quite playable yet and I want to wait until it is before I post it.

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Nice! I'm happy for the feedback.

I understand the points you made. Disabling mouse or using the same movement keys are in game could be an option. As far as the botting... it's hard to eliminate cheaters from a lot of systems. I'm sure someone could write a bot, but there are possible work a rounds for this.

I'll look forward to what you suggest in the future! ;D

OMG this is an amazing idea, square definitely need to implement this ASAP.

While I do agree that something needs to be done with crafting and would like some kind of mini game in it's place I have to say I would not pick this particular idea. It just doesn't fit(in my opinion and as others have brought up there are ways that certain players could exploit it based on their use of mouse or game pad and what not)

I personally don't have a idea myself for what it could be but there are plenty of games out there that show there are fun short and interesting mini games. Bioshock hacking for example was a short little mini game that was quite fun. Mass Effect 2 had a few interesting ones as well. Now I'm not saying to copy those kinda things but that they should be looked at. They were simple and quick. Which is basically all the FFXIV crafting needs to be.

crafting should never be that complicated in any MMORPG, now an offline game, maybe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

crafting should never be that complicated in any MMORPG, now an offline game, maybe.

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I disagree. Crafting should either be complicated and fun or it should be instant.

If there's going to be a crafting minigame, it should be a good one.

Do you honestly think that having to pay even more attention and waste more time will take away from the fact that you're still grinding? I like the current system. If I don't want to pay attention, I can still win. If I do pay attention, I can win more (HQ).

I'm not trying to put down your idea. It actually sounds fun. But I think, in the long run, crafting a bunch of things this way after a time will annoy me even more. Right now, alt tabbing on a movie while I'm crafting suits me fine. And I don't think this is a flaw the game has, like some people think. Hell, at least I can type while crafting, unlike gathering.

Any mechanic which drives the players to seek other ways to entertain themselves while playing the game needs to die. We're already playing a game. Why should we be looking for things to distract ourselves from playing the game?

If it's acceptable for crafting to be done in AFK-mode, there should be an option to just set ourselves up to craft while we're actually AFK, like a bazaar. Or better yet, to craft while offline.

I agree that the crafting grind is currently too long to support a real system, but preserving the current length of the crafting grind is not more important than making crafting fun.

I have thought about it before...always loved Mario Party Minigames...IMO they are very fun and creative. Still, i'm not sure if it would fit ptoperly the game. Also, it would still be boring to grind if you received over and over the same image for the same recipe.

A similar, but at same time unique mechanics can be seen in Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, where in the mining minigame you need to use different tools to uncover an item completely. Similar to here, you have a more delicated tool that uncover less but depletes less durability and one that uncovers more but depletes it faster. Very fun minigame IMO!

I like the suggestion though...IMO some more versatile minigames are always welcome, even though i really doubt it happening...SE always had a preference for old school minigames rather than trying something new. ^^:

I had a suggestion that would fit SE best, by changing crafting into a ATB battle mechanics...but it wasn't posted here since i actually didn't meant to suggest it for "this" FFXIV...it's part of a terribly long synthesis spam in my lodestone blog (tagged as "battle" lol) if you happen to be bored enough to read a blog that only talks about pure game mechanics. Also, keep in mind that there i'm talking about the original FFXIV, not this one (that's why it wasn't posted here...would be "off-topic").

A thread where Rem isn't trolling? I'm liking it just for the fact.