A brief treatise on the nature of Eikons

So to start with let's get this out of the way, I am using the term Eikon to refer to all magical phenomena created as a combination of belief and aether.

The reason I refer to them as such is because of a fundamental lack of understanding of their nature on most people's parts. The term Primal refers to the gods worshiped by the beast tribes, however, as we've seen not only can other being be summoned, but the actual creation is not the summoning of one of their gods to this plane, but merely a form created based on what the summoners believe their god to be like. The creation itself, and I must stress this, has no relation whatsoever to the god itself. Supposing it exists in the first place but theology is a matter for another time.


Something puzzling though is the fact that when resummoned, the Eikon seems to have memories of prior summonings, my current theory is that the belief of it's worshipers acts as a form of memory for it. They know it was defeated by the warrior of light and thus it is created knowing of them.

Another matter is those that seem to be maintained without belief or aether, namely, Odin, Bahamut, and the warring triad. The latter are imprisoned by the Allagans, and thus we can bet that their technology somehow is able to maintain their form and at the same time siphon off the energy they give, how such a mechanism works is beyond me however. Which leaves Odin, I'm unsure how much it siphons aether from the shroud, but it does not seem to be as much as the others, furthermore, it might be able to sustain itself off of the belief of one individual, namely the one that it bonds with to make the rider, taking advantage of the fact that it does no more than exist when not bonded to live off of it's saved up aether.

Thoughts on the matter? Counterpoints? Added arguments?

(For some reason it felt natural to write this in a semi-in character fashion, but by all means don't feel obligated to reply in such a fashion if you don't want to)

You're incorrect on the matter of belief not being a factor in the summonings, and continued feeding of the Eikons Odin and the Warring Triad, and the Primal Bahamut. Starting with the Dread Wyrm, he was fed by the worship from trapped Meracydian dragons and aether converted from solar energy in the false moon Dalamud. Odin is summoned by the sword Zantetsuken, as explained in the quests surrounding his trial. Sephirot, at least among the Warring Triad, is stated to have been fed by trapped tree-people, the people that worshiped him. How he gets aether, though, has not been explained, though it may have something to do with the Centrifugal Crystal Engine in the sight-seeing log, which states the Allagans used the Warring Triad's energy to transmute the lifeforce of chimeras into crystals, and then use those crystals to fuel more chimeras' creation.

Further, I would not advocate titling all summoned being "Eikons" when Unukhalai (sp.?) specifically states that Primals and Eikons are different classes of beings, though he does not share the specifics of how they are such.

Err, Odin is Zantetsuken, the rider is merely an individual who's mind has been overridden. Though the info about the others is much appreciated. I'm not so sure about Unukhalai, I am unsure if he was just using different terminology to draw a distinction or if the summoned beasts that coin the term are different from the ones summoned more recently, but I still feel that Eikon, meaning something made in the image of something else, is more accurate than continuing to refer to them as primals.

While you may feel such, I do insist that Unukalhai (finally got the spelling) and the journal both are very specific in their use of the terms Eikon and Primal, only ever using the term Eikon to describe the Warring Triad and, more specifically so far, Sephirot, and using Primal for all of the previous Trials, and for Bahamut himself.

It seems to me that Primals are summoned ex nihilo using pure Aether, while Eikons use an existing object as the medium for summoning; Sephirot was supposedly the first sacred tree, transformed by prayer.

Interestingly, if I'm right about this, it would mean that Shiva, the Knights of the Round and Phoenix are technically Eikons. It also raises some interesting implications regarding Odin/Zantetsuken.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

It seems to me that Primals are summoned ex nihilo using pure Aether, while Eikons use an existing object as the medium for summoning; Sephirot was supposedly the first sacred tree, transformed by prayer.

Interestingly, if I'm right about this, it would mean that Shiva, the Knights of the Round and Phoenix are technically Eikons. It also raises some interesting implications regarding Odin/Zantetsuken.

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This is close to my theory as well. I take it a step further and suspect the Eikon is a primalised form of the original being or something turned into a primal version of its original self. Sephirot is a primal version of the sacred tree. He is supposed to be an embodiment of it. Likewise Odin was a warrior who became a primal when 'taking up the cursed sword Zantetsuken' to protect Urth from the Allagans. (Source is Koji Fox) From what we see of the Primal Odin, he seems driven by the same 'mind' as the original warrior who became a primal.

So my theory is that normal primals are myths given form, while a Eikon is a real thing converted into a god form of itself by being turned directly into a primal.

Also, I'm not aware of Bahamut actually being refered to as a Eikon at any stage. Elder Primal yes, but not Eikon, except by the Garleans who refer to any religious focus of worship as an Eikon. The only confirmed true Eikons I can remember being referenced by the Allag or Unukalhi are Odin and the Warring Triad.

That seems like a very interesting distinction! Though Odin is strange in that it seems to be the sword itself that is the primal, maybe the first Odin was actually the first wielder of the primal Zantetsuken and later riders are called by that name? I still feel though that my point regarding usage of the term primal is a good one though, maybe a different term is in order to distinguish the summoned beasts from the objects of worship? Maybe just summon? Or Eidolon?

As far as Jacost's theories, I was actually going to in the first draft mention that the summons seen thus far could be categorized as either Gods, or Saints but I didn't really have anything to add to that.

This is purely headcannon but I think originally the sword wasn't actually a primal. By using the sword Odin turned himself and I guess the Sword, into a single Eikon. The reason I think this is the current Odin seems to still identify itself and its mission as the same as the original warrior Odin.

My thought is the sword was a means of creating a Eikon originally. We usually have had rituals create primals in our experience but that doesn't mean an artefact couldn't be created to do the same thing. The only issue is faith as primals usually need believers and aether to be created but then again, Odin seems to operate fine without any real worshipers unless you count the host and the moment that host died Odin would lose his worshiper unless it tempers someone else instantly. Under normal conditions a primal cant survive without worshipers and worshipers give them strength.

It might also be worth considering: just what constitutes "worship"? In the case of Odin, could the fact that people believe in Odin's power and repeatedly rise up to engage him in combat, be sufficient worship to sustain him?

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It might also be worth considering: just what constitutes "worship"? In the case of Odin, could the fact that people believe in Odin's power and repeatedly rise up to engage him in combat, be sufficient worship to sustain him?

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I think it comes down to the strength of the belief or desire for something (the scene from the end of the Aetherochemical Research Facility with the Ascians basically describes it like that) so it doesn't have to be traditional style worship...or really even knowing there's a form of worship going on if the belief or desire is strong enough to create a focal point for the coalescing of aether.

I am by no maens an reseached expert on FF14's lore but I do believe only the Waring Triad & Odin's sword are called an Elkon by any non-Garlean (Garlean's just call anything Primal/Elkon like an Elkon) & I do agree that the idea that an true Elkon is an object/person made into a Primal like being (Sephirot was a tree 1st turned into his new form by Aether & worship).

As for Zantetsuken I think the way the new 3.0 relic is going (weapon with a soul/concious) is how it was "made", the origional Odin was the 1st/strongest to ever use it & give it Aether... a shit crap ton as Odin probably killed armies with it (like we are with the new Lore from the 3.25 stage Relic). When it welder died/dissapeared & the sword was imprisoned in Urth's Font (then freed in our time by seal weekening) the Sword turned Elkon made itself a "new" Odin (yah my head cannon is the swords the worshipper, yah a Primal, Horse & rider, made by a Elkon to get revenge on a long dead foe... using 1 poor sod & extra Aether from Black Shroud)

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Originally Posted by Belhi

This is purely headcannon but I think originally the sword wasn't actually a primal. By using the sword Odin turned himself and I guess the Sword, into a single Eikon. The reason I think this is the current Odin seems to still identify itself and its mission as the same as the original warrior Odin.

My thought is the sword was a means of creating a Eikon originally. We usually have had rituals create primals in our experience but that doesn't mean an artefact couldn't be created to do the same thing. The only issue is faith as primals usually need believers and aether to be created but then again, Odin seems to operate fine without any real worshipers unless you count the host and the moment that host died Odin would lose his worshiper unless it tempers someone else instantly. Under normal conditions a primal cant survive without worshipers and worshipers give them strength.

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So what does that mean for our anima weapons? I mean, we've been instilling souls into them, and then using them extensively in all manner of BAMF-level stuff. That seems awfully similar to Odin and Zantetsuken.

edit: just saw your post NPC, and I'm feeling the same thing you are.

I'm not so sure Odin's sword is like our anima weapons. I think it may be more like an Eikon, though Zantetsuken's rise to Eikon-hood may be quite different. Legend tells that Odin first received Zantetsuken when he slew an Auri warrior. That still leaves the question of the origins of the sword, and thereby the host of the Eikon. I believe it may have been like a Muramasa sword, and possessed the folk-hero Odin after a possessed Auri warrior attacked him first. That, coupled with the fact he was already famous among the people (and if I remember correctly, infamous with the Allagan leadership) would have empowered him plenty to continue fighting.

We know practically nothing about Zantetsuken's original nature apart from it being a 'cursed weapon'. We don't even know much about Odin's origins apart from him being a warrior from the north who travelled south to protect Urth, who was an enemy of the Allag. In trying to do this he took up the sword Zantetsuken and as a result became the primal Odin.

The fact that, regardless of who the host is now, Odin seems to be driven by the original Odin's goals makes me think that the birth of the Eikon Odin happened when the warrior Odin took up the sword. If that wasn't the case the personality and drive of Odin would change each time it was taken up by a new host or it would hold the true original wielder's goals which really wouldn't likely care much for Urth.

Here is something to consider. If a being already has form when it becomes a primal, does it need faith to maintain that form? Fundamentally faith is what gives shape to a primal. If something already exists and becomes Primalized, does it necessarily need faith to give it form?

I think if you removed a primal's believers, it might have a lack of power though. Certainly a number of the extreme fights imply at times that the strength comes from increased shows of devotion, not more crystals. That said I think they would still exist.

As far as Odin goes, who's to say the original Odin had those goals before picking up the sword.

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Originally Posted by Shadotterdan

I think if you removed a primal's believers, it might have a lack of power though. Certainly a number of the extreme fights imply at times that the strength comes from increased shows of devotion, not more crystals. That said I think they would still exist.

As far as Odin goes, who's to say the original Odin had those goals before picking up the sword.

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We know Odin's motivation cause Koji Fox outright said that his reason for picking up the sword was to protect Urth from the Allag.

The methods used in the extreme fights for at least the first 3 primals involved a willing ritual sacrifice during the summoning process. This created a massive burst of Aether as upon death living things release a huge amount of Aether, a trick Moenbryda used to help us kill Nabriales and the reason she vanished upon death.

That said, its quite probable worship has an effect on a primal's ability to gather Aether. However the fact that our established understanding of how primals operate has been challenged several times so far, its not beyond possibility that we don't know all possible ways a primal can be created. Perhaps there is a way to imitate the effect belief has in another way. Perhaps under certain circumstances its unnessasary. The biggest influence we have seen on primal strength is the amount of Aether they can tap. That's what made Ravana and Bismark EX so important. Both primals had gotten a whiff of the imprisoned triad and if they had gotten to Azys Lla and syphoned energy off the triad they would have grown terrifyingly powerful.

It seems the biggest influence worship or belief or "mortal desire" (as the Ascian super twins put it) has on primals and possibly eikons is the form it takes and the behavior it exhibits.

That being said, I don't remember if the early mentions of how the tempered work relates to providing the focus for summoning or if it mentions that the continued worship also feeds it aether, which would suggest that there is at least some transfer of aether somehow that is connected to belief, which could then mean its strength is likewise connected.

I don't pretend to know a lot about how Eikons and Primals work, but Odin's case does interest me. Normally either/or requires fervent belief and a lot of aether. Judging from how Zantetsuken worked, I would say that supplied the aether, in addition to the aether around Odin itself. As for belief....this is just speculation on my part, but would it be plausible that fear of Odin's power might also be fuel for Odin's existence as well? Fear of something implies belief in it, after all.