I am wondering if that machine was what Tiamat was referring to when she said the Ascians gave ancient Allag the means to entrap primals/eikons. I am also wondering if Unukalhai has something to do with its core mechanism, given his stellar nomenclature.
The Omega
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04-15-2016, 03:52 AMZohar_LaharThe Omega
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04-15-2016, 04:15 AMAnonymoose
The Aetherochemical Research Facility was technically what developed the Ultima and Omega technology, while I believe Tiamat is specifically referring to Dalamud, here. She says that the Ascians also gave knowledge to Allag, leading to Bahamut being entrapped within [永劫の檻], a cage of eternity, or eternal prison.
I'm not actually sure which information / technology was provided from the Ascians to Allag directly; perhaps the knowledge of the Paragons was utilized in the design of both the weapons and the satellite. Maybe it was the knowledge about how a primal might be manipulated into eternal limbo. The game has been pretty unspecific about that; I suppose because there's no reliable vector for that information.
Who was there to see? -
04-15-2016, 11:01 PMFenralDoga and Unei were pretty high-ranking, enough that their clones are everywhere. Archmagus Noah's time of death is unknown, but (s)he was in a crystal orb in Syrcus Tower from that time on, pretty much the ultimate fly-on-the-proverbial-wall. Salina contradicts Doga and Unei's accounts in a few key places, so I'm not sure if that makes her more or less viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
It'd be pretty neat if we ever got to meet a pre-augmentation Amon clone somewhere. Maybe he's in stasis in some... forbidden vault somewhere? -
04-16-2016, 02:40 AMAlberelThe Ascians gave Allag the Heart of Sabik to use as the core for Ultima Weapon and this had the rather unique ability to imprison primals and use their powers at will. I wouldn't be surprised if Omega was similarly built around some kind of Ascian core. As far as we're aware it was Omega that defeated and imprisoned Bahamut, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
The only other technologies that Allag might have been given would be the neurolinks or the artificial prayer channeling devices, though it wouldn't be too much to think Allag developed these themselves. -
04-16-2016, 05:57 AMNalien
I really hope the Eorzean Alliance has foolishly hyped up Omega...
"These inscriptions suggest this was built to slay Bahamut! This must be really powerful to stop that Primal!"
Fast forward to Heavensward and Azys Lla...
Allag killed Bahamut (the dragon) and Tiamat summoned Bahamut (the Primal)? How did the Allagan kill Bahamut (the dragon)...
Fast forward to 3.5, Nero walks in and chastises everyone for not realizing that this is the weak Omega Mk I that was used to slay Bahamut (the dragon) and was just on display because culture, hinting that perhaps the Allag perfected the machine and there's an Omega Mk XIV out there somewhere... Maybe have Teledji temporarily revived just so he can learn how dumb his ambitions were given how weak this Omega is, and to give Nero something to play croquet with...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberel
This doesn't bode well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar
Is it weird that I've long since figured Unukalhai will absorb the Triad at some point, but never once made the connection between his name and the Heart of Sabik and it's purpose? I hope Nero inserts himself into the Triad story... "That's thing isn't "Unukalhai"! It's the Bishi of Unukalhai! An enigma whose surface even the vaunted scholars of ancient Allag failed to scratch!", Gods damned it SE, bring back Nero already! -
04-16-2016, 08:04 AMFenral
This is all going to end with Cutest Ascian embracing his duty and turning into a small, high-powered rock so we can plug him into an anti-primal mech to fight Nidhogg and/or Garleans, isn't it?
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04-17-2016, 07:28 AMZohar_Lahar
Prior to Heavensward, Yoshi-P mentioned part of a side story would go into how Omega captured Bahamut. Since it seems likely Omega was also used to restrain the Warring Triad, I'm wondering if this story arc will build up to Omega's reactivation (and then tie back into the Main Scenario for 4.0).
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04-18-2016, 11:23 AMJacostDragon!Bahamut wouldn't have been that weak. He's still one of the First Brood after all, right up there with Nidhogg. And remember that Nidhogg, even with only one eye that isn't even his, can kill you instantly unless his actual eye is turned against him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Now consider that Dragon!Bahamut would have had both of his eyes when Allag defeated him. It's unknown what a First Brood dragon is like at full power, but I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility that the Primal!Bahamut was actually weaker than the original. I guess we'll find out when we get our rematch with Full Power Nidhogg in 3.3. -
04-21-2016, 11:38 AMFebrusI find this to be the more interesting part of the history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Personally, I have little doubt that Omega weapon (or something similar) was utilized in capturing and imprisoning Bahamut, as the weapon was outright stated to have been designed specifically to deal with Elder Primals such as Bahamut. If I recall correctly, this information was revealed during a meeting between the heads of state in patch 2.3, in which they introduced the lore behind the Secure game-mode; though, I don't recall if they ever stated where they came across this information (probably off of one of the many allagan relics in the cartaneu flats).
Regardless, what I find more interesting is that since the fall of the Allagan empire, the Ascians have almost never provided similar technological support to any other species in Eorzea (Ultima Weapon being the one possible exception). They have chosen instead to work with beast tribes, and what little presence they've had in the more civilized cultures of Eorzea has been through manipulation rather than technology. Personally, this leads me to believe that the Allagans may not have used it in a way that the Ascians had considered, and that the Ascians eventually concluded that it was a mistake to give them such information (whatever that information may have been). -
04-21-2016, 02:02 PMFrederick22No point to give information to a civilisation that doesnt have the tecnological means to make such weapons I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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04-21-2016, 06:35 PMFebrusEither that, or they explicitly chose those civilizations because they were incapable of making such weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
In theory, the Ascians could have given such toys to the Garlean Empire, but they haven't. They could have also made such deals with Ishgard under the pretenses of helping them with the war on dragons, but they didn't do that either. My opinion on this is that they haven't made such offers because they are afraid of a repeat of the Allagan Empire, the primary evidence being the situation with Bahamut. When he was released, we were given a cutscene in which an Ascian was ecstatic, saying something about how he didn't think he'd get to see Bahamut again. He then burst out into maniacal laughter. With this, and the fact that the Ascians have withheld such technologies since then, I'm given the impression that the enslavement or containment of Primals wasn't part of their master plan. It's just speculation, but I have a feeling that the Allagan's developed themselves far more than the Ascian's bargained for, and their widely successful conquest of primals actually ended up working against the Ascians until the fall of their civilization. -
04-21-2016, 11:39 PMWyrahFhurrstHave they not? Isn't there the impending threat of a civilization who very rapidly developed new technologies and is even advanced enough to utilize Allagan technologies? I'm not saying the Garleans could only do it with the help of the Ascians, but I am saying their rapid rise to prominence from a very small nation is suspicious, especially when their rise threatens the beast tribes, which causes them to summon their Primals, the Ascians' goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
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04-22-2016, 12:27 AMRocl
We don't have any explicit information that the Ascians have helped any advanced civilization on a grand scale like the Allag. However, it's entirely possible whispering in the ears of Allag about Dalamud and the Heart of Sabik isn't much different than Lahabrea whispering in Gaius' ear about the Ultima Weapon. The First, Second, Fourth and Fifth Astral Era histories are large unknowns, but in the Third, Sixth, and Seventh we do have an "advanced civilization" in each one. Allag, Mhach, and Garlemald.
Should the Ascians be in direct opposition to Allag imprisoning Primals--there's a contradiction. An unknown gang of Ascians specifically gave Allag "the means to entrap" Bahamut. There wasn't much room for interpretation in Tiamat's words.
I'm a subscriber to Ascians definitely helped Solus with the conquering of Islabard just because of what it caused: a shitton of war. Grand wars seem to work favorably for the Ascians and their necessary "chaotic confluence." You elevate one people far above the others so that they seek out and subjugate the myriad masses then pull the rug out from under their Empire. They help you set up the Jenga tower just so they can knock it down. It's probably a case of it's easier to knock down one huge tower than a bunch of little ones-- I don't know I'm not a crazy semi-immortal in a black robe. All I know is the Ascians like conflict. Preferably with an increasingly dangerous arms race. They don't want one side to win, they just wanna ruin everyone's day.
As for the Mhach, that's even more conjecture on my part. The Ascians seem keen on helping people summon voidsent or summoning voidsent themselves. Why? Your guess is as good as mine. Probably something to deal with disrupting the aether of Hydaelyn, since so many voidsent love to feed on it and is easier to pull off than a Primal summoning. The three nations during the War of the Magi seemed to be pretty equally "advanced," but only the Mhach had something like the Void Ark. There must be some degree of aetherscience behind getting that to fly. The Nymians had their clockwork/stratagems and Amdapori their soulkin/conjury but it really feels like the Mhach were, well, the enemy.
Let us not forget white magic was invented in response to the use of black magic--the Mhachi had already began using the land's aether against their enemies. The magical arms race began with the Mhach! It is somewhat curious that in the Third and Seventh Era the advanced civilizations were 'technologically' advanced while the Sixth was 'magically.' Maybe it's an odd/even thing the Ascians do to keep things fresh. Fostering wars seems to be a big Ascian thing.
This does, of course, rather unceremoniously allow some "well then Solus, Xande, Thordans I & VII aren't all bad! it was those dastardly Ascians!" I... meant... to just post that bit about Tiamat and the Ascians knew exactly what the Allags were going to do with Dalamud... and that Bahamut wouldn't be considered an "elder primal" during the Third Astral Era (when he was captured by Omega)... -
04-22-2016, 12:32 AMValkyrieL
Ib4 Omega becoming the next endgame raid....
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04-22-2016, 03:25 AMFebrusIt's actually more likely that they haven't been given any Ascian help, or, if they have, the help they've been given is quite minimal by comparison to the Allgans.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
Most of the Magitek gizmos are radically different in design form Allgan technologies (at least in appearance), and their creation has already been attributed to specific individuals. Of them, Nero is the most suspicious as he had dealings with an Lahabrea in the past, but it does not seem like those dealings involved the sharing of technologies. If they did, then there would have been no need for Nero to have spied on us during our fights with Ifrit and Titan. Lahabrea would have just told him what he wanted to know.
Further, as much as Garlemald's rapid expansion could cause an increase in for primal summonings (which is really only the case for the Sylphs and, maybe, the Vanu), the subsequent capture and enslavement or destruction of those primals is most likely not on the agenda for Ascians. Keep in mind that the Garlean Empire has a zero tolerance policy for primal summoning. Their end game is to destroy them, even at the cost of the entire species which summoned them. The immediate conflict would probably make the Ascians happy, but the overall effect would be opposite to their goals, given that the land would start to heal as soon as the primal and it's summoners were dead. -
04-22-2016, 03:45 AMFebrusOf this there is little doubt; however, that does not mean that the Ascians did not eventually come to the conclusion that this was a mistake. The reason being that the result was the exact opposite of what they intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocl
You're right to point out that there is a trend to be seen here. Each era ends with the fall of an advanced civilization. However, you're overlooking what happened before that fall occurred. We know from the Crystal Tower quest line that before the fall of the Allgan Empire, they enjoyed a very long time of peace and prosperity. We have no way of knowing how long this peace lasted, but it was long enough for the Allagan's to become complacent and start to stagnate as a civilization. Because of this, and because they lacked strong leadership, Amon cloned Xande, and Xande went on to try and finish the conquest he started in his first life. This caused several uprisings and, eventually, the cataclysmic attempt to store all of Dalamud's power within the Crystal Tower in a last ditch effort to open the portal to the World of Darkness.
Before that cataclysm happened, though, the Allagans were at peace and had more than they could ever need. Primal threats were at a minimum and any that did occur were likely quickly subdued. If it wasn't for Amon and Xande, it's entirely possible that the Allgan Empire would have just kept along without any conflicts whatsoever, sharing the warm light of civilization and boundless resources with everyone and anyone. Obviously, that would be unacceptable to an Ascian. With that in mind, it's very likely that they don't want to risk repeating what happened with the Allagans. To avoid the possibility of a future without Primals, it would make sense for them to withhold such technological support from any other civilization, no matter how warmongering that civilization is. The Garlean Empire, in particular, would seem like the last person they'd want to have such technologies, because they've already made it very clear that they are more than willing to destroy every primal they meet, as well as that primal's summoner in order to prevent any future summonings. -
04-22-2016, 04:31 AMFenralObjection!Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
(bolded for emphasis)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unei
I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound like an enduring, perfect society to me. Alas, their decline was a real, tangible event, not just paranoid fearmongering. It was also fairly short, as it took mere generations for the decline to become apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doga
Which actually makes it all the more interesting if the Ascians' original plan was to save the declining Allagan society, and it backfired. -
04-22-2016, 08:40 AMFebrusSustained lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
You are correct.It is highly unlikely that the Allgan empire would have endured had Amon and Xande not made an even bigger mess of things given that it was already starting to decline ... however you're also kind of proving the rest of my point lol.
Like I said, we were openly told that, at it's peak, the Allagan civilization enjoyed peace and prosperity across its entire empire (which, by definition, would include its subjugated states as well). That prosperity was brought on by a limitless energy supplied by the Crystal Tower and Dalamud. This means that the prosperity the Allagans enjoyed, no matter how brief, was in part supplied by the technology they received (and likely modified) from the Ascians (oops).
We also cannot say that it was a short time of prosperity. Doga specified that it lasted for "generations." Note the use of a plural. That means a minimum of two generations, at least, in a civilization in which the average lifespan was likely quite long (due to their extreme advances in science and magic. Regardless, even if it was a short time, which is unlikely, I doubt that the Ascians were happy about it. Given that they want to cause as much destruction and drain as much aether out of the land as possible, any amount of prolonged peace is a bad thing for them, and they probably don't want to risk this happening a second time with any other civilization.
In fact, I can totally see them engineering the downfall of the Allgan Empire just to put a stop to it. Given their penchant for manipulation, it's possible that they started manipulating the people to spread decadence in the populace. It's also possible that they were the ones who put the idea of resurrecting Xande into Amon's head in the first place. Who knows, but I think it's a safe bet that they were pretty happy to see the Crystal Tower destroy the entire civilization. -
04-22-2016, 09:12 AMFenral
And now we're meandering back towards the debate on exactly how much of human folly and disaster can be traced to an external source, and whether or not it was merely the weakness of some humans failing to resist the temptations of some decidedly inhuman evil that brought about the Calamities. That debate.
Pardon my super sarcastic tone, but I don't buy it, never will. I also don't really want to go into that. Again. Humans are the sole agents of their destruction, but also the sole agents of their salvation, blah blah blah wow my navel is awfully perky today blah.
You're free to believe what you want until we know more, but personally, I think the Ascians do little more than take advantage of the notions humans get on their own. The Garlean invasion? Human ambition. The Ultima Weapon? An Ascian merely pointed out a little-known book on a shelf in the Imperial Archives and let Gaius and Nero handle the rest. The invasion would have happened differently, sure, but it still would have happened. -
04-22-2016, 11:28 AMFebrusWell, when it comes to Ascians, that's pretty much the implied undertone of the entire game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
That said, I'm not really sure where you're going with this anymore. Hypothetical conjecture aside, my original point was that actually exactly what you're saying. I don't think the Ascians have had nearly as much involvement with the Allagans or Garleans (especially not the Garleans) as most people give them credit for. I'm just drawing a inference for why they haven't been as involved, especially in recent years.
We know from Tiamat that the Ascians did, in fact, give technology to entrap Bahamut to the Allagans, and that the immediate result before the earthquake was a time of peace that lasted generations. That sounds like a pretty big backfire to that plan, to me; so, it would make sense that they don't want to risk repeating the same mistake with anyone else. Hence, no more technological handouts. How much or how little involvement they've had with manipulating events behind the scenes is beside the point. Direct influence via technology such as Omega or Dalamud has been lacking. -
04-22-2016, 12:29 PMAnonymoose
Not really trying to make any real point here, just tap-dancing on the scales of debate.
Isn't Thordan literally the guy accepting disastrous power from an external source? And then when he turns it back on them, he says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Which kind of mirrors:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thordan
Derplander later joined them, but he didn't ever say we misunderstood their methods, just that the ends do justify the means. The original world must needs be restored, or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derplander
And yet imho this is still true. The Ascians see someone who's about to start running and (if so required) strap a rocket to their back, causing Rocket Man's enemies to become desperate (hopefully desperate enough to summon primals). If Rocket Man's war doesn't start a Calamity, or it looks like he might win, no problem; just give Rocket Man's enemies more power and see where that goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Without Ascian involvement, mankind would still have ambition. Wars would be waged. People would die. Empires would rise and fall. But (as far as we've been led to believe) they would never be waging that war with so much power that it would cause a Calamity. The War of the Magi is the only hint we have that it might (so far), and Mhach spent the entire time harnessing the void, same as Allag. Ascian involvement proven? Gods no. Implied? A bit. Especially when 1.0 said that the Sixth Umbral Era had "a cabal of immortal mages" at its center.
A nitpick, Crystal Tower led to generations of peace. Dalamud was created at the end of the era, right before the Calamity. And, imho, nothing so much "backfired" as much as "was a chaotic clusterf[kupo]k by design". Everything Allag and the Meracydians did (sometimes with Ascian assistance) led directly to a Rejoining.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Because of the Crystal Tower, the Empire was on the decline - they were desperate to avoid collapse. Suddenly, Allag develops crazy advanced technology (maybe Ascian involvement, maybe not), bringing Xande back from the dead around the same time Azys Lla goes into production. Xande immediately tackles his one regret, having failed to take Meracydia. Faced with total invasion, the Meracydian tribes are desperate; primals (Warring Gods) are summoned (Ascian involvement). At the same time, the citizens of Allag rise up in revolt against Xande's tyranny. Xande is stretched too thin. Desperate, he makes a pact with the Cloud of Darkness and harnesses the power of the void, cutting down the resistance. The Imperial Army slays Bahamut and tears through the Meracydian brood(s). Tiamat's remaining forces are on the brink of annihilation; desperate for salvation and revenge, they summon Bahamut as a primal shade (Ascian involvement). The powers of Darkness can't be sustained - the Crystal Tower is running short of energy.
Suddenly, the Aetherochemical Research Facility develops the means to trap the Triad and eventually Bahamut (Ascian involvement according to Tiamat), hurling him into the sky encased in Dalamud. There wasn't much time between then (probably months, perhaps years, probably not generations) and the appearance of a small band of brave warriors that become beacons of hope and lead the charge against Xande and the Darkness. That's when Xande decides "Screw this, the Cloud can have everything." and discharges Dalamud's entire energy supply in an attempt to throw open the voidgate, ushering in a massive earth-aspected Calamity.
Would Allag have waged war without Ascian intervention? Oh, hells, yeah. They'd have slaughtered thousands. Hundreds of. Millions. But how many layers of Ascian involvement are between "Allag uses advanced aetherophysics and machina in an attempt to build a global empire" and "Xande discharges incalculable amounts of energy directly into the planet's surface from a solar-powered lunar-oribtal weapons platform sustained by a superprimal energy transistor"?
There's probably room for debate. -
04-22-2016, 01:33 PMFrederick22
This is my question. What would have happened if Xande was not resurrected? How exacly would have the empire declined?
Could that have caused a calamity? -
04-22-2016, 10:18 PMFenralOnly meant to shut down the train of thought that the Ascians instigated a calamity from nothing because the Allagans had achieved lasting world piece with the power of Dalamud. I do actually agree with you on the rest, so if any other part of my post indicated that in spite of intent to counter the aforementioned, it's because discussions here aren't really two-sided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I actually agree with about 90% of what you said. My only point was that the Ascians aren't the source of conflict, just the enablers. We need to stop (not defeat or kill) them not because humanity would have achieved world peace by now if the evil space aliens hadn't intervened, but because we're perfectly capable of screwing everything up for ourselves without shadowy figures on the corner handing out nukes to whackjobs like Thordan VII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
Hard to say for sure. Considering they were essentially the Roman Empire with nuclear power, I'd say sooner or later they'd get a Caligula or a Nero (Caesar) with too much power and too many bad ideas and nobody in a position to say no. All it would take is one drunken revel where someone decides to crank up the energy output on Syrcus Tower for a fireworks show and there goes the Empire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
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04-25-2016, 10:57 PMKallera
I somewhat agree with fenral and moose here. with or without Ascians there would still be conflict, and you'd still be hard pressed to tell the desperate, beastman or not, to simply roll over and die cause of metaphysical concepts that fill you and yours with gil and prosperity, but not theirs.
I wanted to make an anlogy, but then it started going into wierd territory, and I felt it seemed too harsh and hopeless for a critique.