Midas Savage Progression Question

I'm currently progressing through Alex Midas Savage and I main a summoner (i225). Recently due to static changes, I've offered to take up the mantle of a Bard in our static group (i220 penta/quad melded) since our raid leader is a little adamant about having a Bard/Machinist in the group.

While I enjoy the Bard play style, it does seem like the other DPS classes in my party (DRG, BLM, NIN) out DPS me, reportedly by a large margin. My summoner was pulling large enough numbers to compete with them.

My rotation is a little messy at times and I'm definitely more confident in Savage raiding as my summoner.

When we asked our raid leader why a bard was needed for progression, there didn't seem to be a concrete answer. While I understand fully the importance of Paean/Foes and the versatility of having a Bard, am I not being more of a hindrance to progression by hitting triple digit dps numbers as opposed to four digit dps numbers? Granted my summoner has access to Virus and battle Rez (in the plenty of moments people die to mechanics)

I guess my question is, IS bard really needed for Savage progression? Or would it be better to just play my Summoner.

Only progressing in A6S currently but MCH/BRD seems indispensable as it's a long 10:30 enrage continuous battle. Any deaths/raises will totally tank healer MP. That said, the MCH in my group pulls awesome DPS, so it's not a matter of either-or. I think BRD/MCH is important for group versatility but they still need to pull competent DPS all the same.

Except for A8S u dont really need Brd/Mch. Well this requires obviously no big fails and stuff. But if all is running normal and your Whm/Ast has a proper mp-Management you dont need any mp recovery class. This is at least what i noticed so far. A8S isnt posibble i think as J-waves drain healers mp af

First thing you need to learn about bards is... there is no set rotation. It's priority based on what is off CD, what CDs to couple together, keep your dots up, keep straight shot buff up.

You should be able to do 4 digit numbers on bard.

Try to use the opener and suggestions from:
http://angered.guildwork.com/forum/t...ide-by-krietor

You might need to adjust your gear for the 600 skillspeed as well if going with the above.

The funny thing about MP management for our healers is that as my summoner, any goofs the party does to mechanics and would need raises, I'm pretty much on it so the healers can focus on healing.

RE:Krietor's bard rotation, it's been immensely invaluable when switching to bard. I haven't main classed bard since BCoB. On a dummy I can reach 4 digit numbers and on A6S I can burst up high, it's the sustained DPS that plummets, generally because Mechanics > DPS. I guess I'm just used to seeing good sustained numbers on my summoner and I'm comparing it to bard?

Still not seeing the need for Bard during prog (esp on A6S when the enrage is tight), but at this point I don't want to sound defeated.

Going to get my Hyperconductive Gandiva next week and hopefully that sees better numbers than my Seph Ex Bow.

You say you're only hitting 3 digit numbers.

Which floor are you talking about?

Also are you in charge of doing certain things in regards to mechanics?

The most important thing about playing bard (or any caster besides Summoner) is knowing when and how to turret. If you're ever moving unnecessarily (you should quite literally /never/ move in Brawler, for example), you're tanking your dps.

Also be sure to cross-class Feint or get good at dropping Minuet when moving and being sure to re-up Iron Jaws and shoot Empyreal before doing so. Make sure to maintain auto-attacks when dodging without Minuet, though, or it's a massive dps loss.

The issue you're facing is absolutely not Bard being weaker than Summoner, it's you not knowing how to handle mechanics as a level 60 Bard nearly as well as you handle them as Summoner, primarily due to Bard having far fewer ways to cheat and get movement.

tl;dr: The biggest and best dps buff in the game is the secret, hidden one called "Uptime" - learn how to maximize this, and your dps will compete with the best of them if you understand the mechanics of your class well enough.

Currently progressing through A6S up to Swindler. Not really in charge of any mechanics other than having fourth priority on orbs, I used to also bait double drill and virus the Betas on second boss but that was on my summoner (I miss doing that lol).

I've been practicing stance dancing, and that's where the mess comes in. In the times that it works, its a beautiful thing, but when it messes up, its quite messy! You're absolutely right, it's me not knowing how to level 60 all that well on Bard, I guess I figured that since SMN has a lot of micro management, its sorta the same as bard (dots up all the time, weaving OGCDs, etc etc).

Good tip on Feint, I'll work that in.

Oh, one other trick that I read about BRD re:Feint is that your only instant cast skill is a proc'd Straight Shot afaik, and you can only double-weave if the cast is instant. Because of this, casting BL procs is tough when your gcd is so tight and you only get one skill per gcd.

So: If you do NOT have a Straighter Shot proc, BL is off-cooldown randomly, another ogcd is also ready for the next gcd, and Heavy Shot is next, you can Feint>BL>ogcd>continue for a net gain of dps over holding either of the ogcd skills an additional gcd.

You just really really gotta practice finding spots to turret and then moving only when absolutely necessary and never any other time. Or at least moving smartly. Check out on fflogs how other Bards who are doing well handle the movement-heavy mechanics fights of A6S.

Yeah, planting my self is no problem as I'm a caster-lifer (BLM and SMN) and stutter stepping is doable for me easily. I think the problem I'm having is really stance dance. BTW Amazing tip on Feint, as it gives me another GCD to hit that isn't affected by WM. Being able to do just what you said of Straighter Shot + BL + Feint + ogcd helps keep my DPS on heavy movement mechanics like Mirages and stuff.

I never drop WM. Just not worth it. Feint tends to be enough for 99% of movement. But yeah Feint is our mobility tool.

I don't play Bard;;; I just have been looking at fflogs with the MCH in my static and seeing that MCH drops GB at points for reasons and figured BRD would work similarly.

It is worth noting that 120*1.3 = 156 which is more than a non-Minuet Heavy Shot (150) not even including Disembowel (which, unless your DRG sucks, should literally never drop in any current content). That said, it's also worth noting that, assuming you lock on/strafe when moving, that 150 out-of-minuet HS is accompanied by autos, so it would /technically/ be a gain, so long as you don't overlap an Iron Jaws or Empyreal Arrow cast (or other ogcds? I think?).

It seems up to personal preference - I'm seeing some Bards toggle Minuet at certain points and others only turn it off for the opener on each boss in A6S.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I don't play Bard;;; I just have been looking at fflogs with the MCH in my static and seeing that MCH drops GB at points for reasons and figured BRD would work similarly.

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From my understanding a machinist can gain a very minor DPS increase with stance dancing.

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It seems up to personal preference - I'm seeing some Bards toggle Minuet at certain points and others only turn it off for the opener on each boss in A6S.

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The out of WM opener is an alternate opener for bards. It might help with some fights. As for certain points it depends how well they can move(or if they have ogcds they can burn at that point or a proc or if they have feint). I never bothered with lock on/strafing much but then I didn't run around like a headless chicken as well.

Only time I'll drop minuet in savage is for added movement. A heavy shot in that form does about the same as feint and I might hit an auto attack or two so I get a little extra damage. But yeah, minuet would ideally never be dropped in a perfect rotation.

So our group raided last night and I'm definitely pulling more DPS than Monday, by 150-250+.

I'm more comfortable stance dancing now which is more preferable, since at 1100+ Crit, my bloodletter procs quite often and in WM I tend to loose out on some free procs during the casting. During times when I can just turret, my DPS is acceptable, it's during movement that hurts since weaving in and out of WM is harder to pull off and I rely on Feint/procs a lot more.

While learning how to play Bard this way is truly trial by fire, I still don't honestly see the need for Bard or Machinist, as my raid leader seems to vehemently think. My SMN is still a lot more geared (near ilvl230 now) and I still have a lot more raid experience on it and Res during combat is easier/less taxing for me to do than our healers (whom are NOT running out of MP issues btw). If anything I should lvl MCH and run that over Bard, since they seem to have a better raid toolset than Bard does for A6S (ranged slow, root, and stun, plus a disable which the bard doesn't have).

Meh. At the very least I'm making myself more versatile I guess?