Hellfire Guillotine vs Nothung

I'm torn as to which is best at i230. I'm thinking Nothung.

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Originally Posted by Mieze

I'm thinking Nothung.

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Well, you might say...

...there's Nothung quite like it.

http://puckjunk.com/wp-content/uploa...vid_Caruso.jpg

Okay, actual commentary time.

Hyperconductive Nothung is the relic, and so has a higher stat budget per iLvl than Hellfire Guillotine. While the Guillotine can be upgraded to 240 through Savage raiding (and eventually wing 2 of Void Ark), you're going to get more bang for your buck with Nothung. Discussion on secondary stats doesn't really mean much when the primary stats are better.

While I personally think the relic should have Parry, I know 3/4 of the people posting here would be up in arms about it, because there is a visceral hatred of Parry I will never completely understand. Heads would roll. Heh. Heads rolling. Because guillotine. Heh. I'll shut up now.

EDIT: Wait just a Twelve-damned minute. The Relic has the same base primary stats and same stat budget as the Hellfire Guillotine, when you take melding into account.

Square. Wat u did.

You're thinking correctly.

If you want to know which weapon is better currently, i say: Hyperconductive Nothung.
It allows you to save Lore to buy armor, while spending 1k of those may hurt your armor iLvl.
Despite the fact Lore weapon has 2 materia slots, i believe it's not worth to exchange those for perfect secondary stats (at least for me but i play aggresively) that Nothung provides with.

BUT, if you speak about future, like next patch, or next expansion, i would say: Hellfire- if you have specified standards about statistics for DRK arm.
Since current relic posses CRIT & DET as stats, i doubt next relic is gonna have same sweet stats. That means you may end up making relic with parry and accuracy.
(While i have nothing to parry, for current moment it is not a too good statistic)
Next relic may also be a hybrid of crit/det & parry/acc, but it is still less interesting than current Nothung stats.
It may end up, that grinding next tomestones or weapon available will be a better choice than a relic.

H. Nothung has better secondary stat allocation (Crit/Det as opposed to Crit/Parry)

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

That means you may end up making relic with parry and accuracy.

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I'll puke if I see that.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

Since current relic posses CRIT & DET as stats, i doubt next relic is gonna have same sweet stats. That means you may end up making relic with parry and accuracy.

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Except that 1) the anima has kept the same stat throughout the updrage process so, I really doubt they'll suddenly change, 2) they have confirmed that there will be a step where you'll be able to customize stats to your liking, 3) in two patches, the Hellfire guillotine will be obsolete, while the Nothung will keep growing and 4) comes the next expansion, and its probable level cap increase, neither of those will matter.

And they also said that they won't make weapons with accuracy anymore, because they don't want higher ilvl weapons to be scrapped because of an accuracy loss.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

1)._.
It is possbile that we are both right. it's 50/50.
2)._.
It's not funny! It still hurts! All those gear bought for spiritbonding ;__; and this time wasted, when infusing failed!
3)._.
Yes, that's the point i forgot to mention, thou it is possible, that getting next weapon may be easier than next relic (and i had damn Zeta ninja first on server!)
4)._.
You forgot the feelz, when you were leaving ARR and entering HS content with best 130 gear item level available? >w<
And they also said [...]
I am afraid, that you are mistaken! They said that about HS weaponry before first expansion :3 And they didn't do that, because Acc would as good as erased from the game then.

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However, point about making relic for higher chances of getting high iLvl weapon in shorter period of time is an argument for the relic.
Actually you can have both. Never too much glamour stuff. Hellfire look sucks, but it matches armor set.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

3) in two patches, the Hellfire guillotine will be obsolete, while the Nothung will keep growing

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This is the worst reasoning for doing relic. In 3.4 I'll use an Augmented Hellfire/Midan weapon to farm the new primal weapon which will be better than those and the relic, and I'll use that primal weapon to get the new tome weapon which will be available around the same time as the next relic upgrade and require way less effort. You're putting a lot more effort into upgrading the same weapon than I am to get a new one.

H. Nothung you're trading 100+ Det for parry yuck yeah it can be upgraded to 240 but so will the relic weapon later. Plus the step for it is easy (if you did get Nothung from the previous quest) and should take you a day or 2 of no lifing it.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

However, point about making relic for higher chances of getting high iLvl weapon in shorter period of time is an argument for the relic.
Actually you can have both. Never too much glamour stuff. Hellfire look sucks, but it matches armor set.

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It would have been easier for me to quote you if your answers were in your post, but I'll do it anyway

1) Possible, yes, but unlikely when looking at the past. Besides, we'll probably stay on the "moar DPS" mentality for a while now, so anything is better than Parry.
2) We don't know yet how this will work. I really hope they don't use the same gimmick.
3) Getting the next tome weapon will probably be shorter, but will still requires you to keep your tomestone of whatever and thus, not buying armor with it...while still being, at best, on par with the Anima.
4) Yes, it was funny, but frankly, the gear you have for your leveling phase does not justify min-maxing.

No, I'm not mistaken :
In regards to weapons, we removed accuracy from the weapons for all jobs. We did this to eliminate situations where you couldn't use a new weapon with a high item level because it didn't have accuracy on it. We've made adjustments to the required accuracy, so even without accuracy on weapons it should be easier to land hits on enemies.
Taken from the Q/A thread on Live Letter XXIII.

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Originally Posted by Launched

In 3.4 I'll use an Augmented Hellfire/Midan weapon to farm the new primal weapon which will be better than those and the relic

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Nope, because in 3.3, we'll have the next step of Anima to make it an i240 weapon (or even i245, if they follow the Relic steps), probably with custom stats so that your Augmented Hellfire will always be weaker.

They made the comment before that they wanted to have the raid weapon be the highest tier ilvl to incentivize raiding, so it'll be i240. Whether that will happen in 3.3 or not, I'd need a source on, as I'd assume the next relic step is probably on a half patch. Either way, the first step in the relic is a massive time investment, and then you need to invest even more into the current step, so just using your Lore for the weapon seems like a fine option. I guess the relic is more worth it if you're not raiding and you can afford the time investment on top of capping tomes weekly and anything else you plan on doing.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

They made the comment before that they wanted to have the raid weapon be the highest tier ilvl to incentivize raiding, so it'll be i240.

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For now, probably. But if you remember, they also said it for the Zodiac weapons compared to Coil, which didn't prevent them from being on par (or even better) near the end. And even if they stay 5 ilvl lower, itemization can still make them better, especially for tanks.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Whether that will happen in 3.3 or not, I'd need a source on, as I'd assume the next relic step is probably on a half patch.

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We're also planning to add more storyline to the Anima weapon series in Patch 3.3, and it'll be possible to change your weapon's secondary stats at that time.

We'll be proceeding with a system similar to that of the alexandrite that was needed to create Zodiac weapons, but it will not involve materia. Just like the initial stage of the anima weapon quest, we'll be preparing several avenues for obtaining the necessary items, so you can choose a method that suits your preferences. The weapon enhancements coming in Patch 3.3 will make them comparable to weapons affixed with grade V materia.
Source (On the bright note, it says no materia involved :))

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Either way, the first step in the relic is a massive time investment, and then you need to invest even more into the current step, so just using your Lore for the weapon seems like a fine option.

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Frankly, the last step can be done really quick... And since I haven't been able to buy a full Lore set, despite capping every week since 3.2, I'd have ended with a lower average ilvl if I had spent 1000 Lore on a weapon, since I already had the i210 Anima.

I went for the Hyperconductive Nothung for my DRK (CRT & DET) and used my Lore Tokens to buy the BLM Lore Rod (SSP & CRT), as the BLM relic is not good for me (losing 100+ SSP, no).

I think that was a good move.

Until you get a gobdip, the relic has better stats. No real getting around that

Hyperconductive Nothung is flat out better than anything else at its item level for two reasons. The first is its stat layout, Crit/Det is impossible to overlook, there isn't a better combination unless you're a Warrior and then its Crit/SkS or Det/SkS. The second is that relics, and this goes for all relics in the foreseeable future are assured to have their secondary stats capped. Currently, even with max melds, for whatever reason, you wouldn't be able to cap the parry on Hellfire Guillotine. And even if Hellfire Guillotine didn't have the parry and had SkS or Det, you would still not be able to cap those stats. Basically, if you're a Dark Knight, you get your Nothung and sit on it until you clear A8S or at least five to eight weeks pass of clearing A7S. And considering that A8S' damage check is much more lax than other fights, you should be able to do it long before then and wait out the Midan Metal Greatsword instead.

If you don't have either by 3.3, upgrade Nothung, because Hellfire Guillotine will still be garbage compared to it.

Nothung was what made me decide not to spend my 7 Midan Gear and get the Guillotine. It just is flat out better secondary stats wise. Also, while I don't raid Savage, this made the choice even easier: 230 vs 230. If I had a faint hope to upgrade the Guillotine, then I would have considered it + the materia slotted for Det, simply due to the weapon damage increase.

As I will not be able to upgrade it until most likely 3.3, and they are making the Relic grow in power in 3.3 as well, I am just better off gearing the rest of my slots with Lore instead. I'll probably dump it on my Monk secondary when my Dark Knight is fully equipped.

If you haven't upgraded Anima to i210 by the time you get 7 gears, then go with Hellfire. If Anima relic can't be modified yet then its personal choice, just load up with a lot of STR V and DET V on other pieces to make up for the parry. But I'd rather wait until armor reaches its max ilevel before putting good grade V materia on it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Nope, because in 3.3, we'll have the next step of Anima to make it an i240 weapon (or even i245, if they follow the Relic steps), probably with custom stats so that your Augmented Hellfire will always be weaker.

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Relic/Animas were only evened out to final fights when it was near next raid tier or fights too easy or too difficult. They made it 210 for Animas because A4S was lacking clears out 95% of raid groups, A3S was too difficult to fathom for being a 3rd fight. A8S so far is being cleared appropriately so I doubt it be 245, it's way too early.

Turn 5 Weapons were dominant.
Turn 9 weapons remained dominant for a while but they made the path to 215 a major grind so you couldn't have it easy.
Turn 13 was lacking clears and far too easy so I can see why Zeta was added in a fast time.
A4S was hell broken fight with a more difficult fight blocking it. Adding Thordan/Animas was the only way to push slight more clears.

I don't know about A8S.. The only way I can see it going 245 would be near 3.4.

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

I don't know about A8S.. The only way I can see it going 245 would be near 3.4.

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It will still be better than any tome weapon you can buy without having to set foot in savage.

They also said that i210 step was that long because A4S took a long time to clear. So we can assume that they won't give us more steps that take that much time to complete.
And, I think we can also assume that, comes 4.0, the Anima holders will again have "something" to help them with the next upgradable weapon, even if it's not much.

So, in the long run, I really think doing the Anima is a better choice.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And, I think we can also assume that, comes 4.0, the Anima holders will again have "something" to help them with the next upgradable weapon, even if it's not much.

So, in the long run, I really think doing the Anima is a better choice.

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And in 4.0 there will be another tome weapon that's much easier to get than relic.

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Originally Posted by Launched

And in 4.0 there will be another tome weapon that's much easier to get than relic.

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Easier ? No, because it will probably require raid items to be at the same ilvl.
Shorter ? It depends on how fast you clear the raid.

But if you clear it, then you don't care about the tome weapon, since you'll have access to the raid weapon.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Easier ? No, because it will probably require raid items to be at the same ilvl.
Shorter ? It depends on how fast you clear the raid.

But if you clear it, then you don't care about the tome weapon, since you'll have access to the raid weapon.

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Yes, it'll be easier because if it follows the current way you only need to clear normal mode a few times for an unaugmented tome weapon. Whatever relic upgrade comes in 4.0 won't be available until around the time you can get a tome weapon, and will require a lot more grinding than something like 7 NM clears over 7 weeks. The relic would be the same ilvl as the tome weapon until around the time we get new primal weapons or maybe the weapon upgrade from the new 24 man in 4.1.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Yes, it'll be easier because if it follows the current way you only need to clear normal mode a few times for an unaugmented tome weapon. Whatever relic upgrade comes in 4.0 won't be available until around the time you can get a tome weapon, and will require a lot more grinding than something like 7 NM clears over 7 weeks. The relic would be the same ilvl as the tome weapon until around the time we get new primal weapons or maybe the weapon upgrade from the new 24 man in 4.1.

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I don't think so.
If you look at the Anima, the constant postponing was because they couldn't really grasp the rate at which A4S would be cleared and they feared the Anima quest would not be properly balanced.
If the Anima was released from the start (Like the Relic in 2.0), it would have been far easier to get the i200 Anima than the Eso weapon, while saving Esos for buying armor.

I really don't think we'll have to wait until 4.15 to have access to the next upgradable weapon.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

That means you may end up making relic with parry and accuracy.

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SE actually stopped putting Accuracy on weapons awhile ago. They do love putting Parry on them, though.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

SE actually stopped putting Accuracy on weapons awhile ago. They do love putting Parry on them, though.

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Yeah all weapons from 3.0 onwards have no accuracy

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Originally Posted by MiniPrinny

Hyperconductive Nothung is flat out better than anything else at its item level for two reasons. The first is its stat layout, Crit/Det is impossible to overlook, there isn't a better combination unless you're a Warrior and then its Crit/SkS or Det/SkS. The second is that relics, and this goes for all relics in the foreseeable future are assured to have their secondary stats capped. Currently, even with max melds, for whatever reason, you wouldn't be able to cap the parry on Hellfire Guillotine. And even if Hellfire Guillotine didn't have the parry and had SkS or Det, you would still not be able to cap those stats. Basically, if you're a Dark Knight, you get your Nothung and sit on it until you clear A8S or at least five to eight weeks pass of clearing A7S. And considering that A8S' damage check is much more lax than other fights, you should be able to do it long before then and wait out the Midan Metal Greatsword instead.

If you don't have either by 3.3, upgrade Nothung, because Hellfire Guillotine will still be garbage compared to it.

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Guillotine garbage? Suboptimal? Sure. Garbage? Really now, You are losing out on the DET vs Parry. How much are those gonna matter? Putting into numbers from Dervy's, ~7 DET = 2 STR/VIT. 109 DET = ~32 STR/VIT. That's roughly saying you get ~15AP vs if you don't meld anything on Guillotine. In a larger scheme, that's quite unnoticeable at best (somewhere around 10-15dps iirc, even less important if you aren't raiding a5s-a8s). The comparison isn't THAT bad. Ukonsvara VS the lore axe is a big one though. People just like to make it as if missing some stats is huge even though it's really not that big tbh.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Yeah all weapons from 3.0 onwards have no accuracy

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I swear i saw accuracy somewhere, but apparently that's true. all DRK weps after lvl 130 have no accuracy on them, so i believe we can assume, that there will be no accuracy on future weapons.

I will also quote dude up there: "I really don't think we'll have to wait until 4.15 to have access to the next upgradable weapon."

First will be raid weapon, then, after some time, next relic step, thou it shoudn't be 4.15, i bet it will be max 4.05.

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Originally Posted by Yuni_Queen

First will be raid weapon, then, after some time, next relic step, thou it shoudn't be 4.15, i bet it will be max 4.05.

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Why ? In 2.0, we had relic right from the start. The issue was that is was the same ilvl as the raid weapon, I'll give you that.
Make the raid weapon 305 and the next relic 300, and, voilà ! You can release them at the same time.

And even if that's the case, to upgrade the tome weapon, you'll probably still need a raid item, which means that most people will obtain their relic quicker than the upgraded tome weapon.

On a different topic, I also wish that we'll have no capped-tome weapon at 4.0, to make primal weapons relevant

I had a similar question that I posted on our Marlboro Facebook page. Pretty much everyone said to go with Relic and spend the Lore on gear.

I got both for the lulz