Would be a great weekend if happened to see the notes before Tuesday hits, NOTICE ME SE!
Possible preview of the 3.25 Job/pvp changes?
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03-27-2016, 05:03 AMKataTimePossible preview of the 3.25 Job/pvp changes?
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03-27-2016, 09:24 AMNalien
I'd just like to say;
This? This pisses me the hell off... Please, in future either don't answer such inane questions which have already been answered, or answer them with more information...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
Seriously;
Can you please stop doing this? We knew Dark Knight adjustments were coming... When I then hear Dark Knight getting mentioned in the Live Letter, you know what happens? I get excited. I know Dark Knight adjustments are coming, so I look forward for details. Instead... Instead I get "Just like we said last week, we'll be adjusting Dark Knight"... Complete non-information... Please stop doing this... Either tell us something new or don't bother wasting time repeating yourself... I feel like this happens far too often with Live Letters... It's just annoying...Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida
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03-27-2016, 09:48 AMKataTime
Yeah at least a little info on the direction they are taking would be nice.
EX: Taking a look at BtE for MCH -
03-27-2016, 11:29 AMnickx
It's likely because they themselves don't exactly know what adjustments will be made, as they are still collecting feedback/data and constantly making changes. It doesn't make much sense to share details that might end up changing again a few days later. We'll find out DRK and NIN changes in a few days.
I think Dark Knights should be extremely grateful that they are receiving buffs to begin with, rather than having to wait until Season 2. -
03-27-2016, 11:42 AMRhode
DRK has Carnal Chill, which makes it unique. Being able to reduce a DPS's output by 20% for a fairly large amount of time (20 seconds) is a great asset. However this is literally the only thing DRK has, which is unfortunate considering the other two tanks have way more to work with. Tar Pit sounds useful because you can heavy the opposing DPS from chasing your healer as well, but it's only a 40% chance to work.
Really all you need to do to fix Dark Knight in PvP is make the following changes:
- Darkside uses no MP, or Darkside allows other jobs (like BRD, MCH, AST, etc) to help them regain MP while in Darkside.
- Delirium buffed to reduce INT by 20% instead of 10%.
- Plunge has a stun effect similar to MNK's Shoulder Tackle.
- Tar Pit has a silence or stun additional effect. -
03-27-2016, 12:10 PMRiceisNiceThat's more of a inverse of what paladin and warrior already has (testudo and thrill of war), and it's probably the lesser effective of the three since traited is only 20% (versus 25%)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhode
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03-27-2016, 05:14 PMNalienWhat? 3.22 essentially killed Dark Knight... The interrupt changes put a much greater emphasis on things like Stun and Silence, which Dark Knight simply does not provide in any meaningful manner (on top of much lower survivability, which means Dark Knight is also a greater burden on their own healer for absolutely no pay off, while Clemency/Thrill of War take some small burden off healers). All Dark Knight had prior to that was a greater aptitude for chasing and interrupting, because we could easily toss out ranged attacks to interrupt where as Shield Toss/etc. just eat away TP too quickly...Quote:
Originally Posted by nickx
Am I grateful changes are coming? Absolutely. I'm still pissed they went ahead with an adjustment that might as well have removed the Job from PvP (or at least Feast) without having such changes ready, though... Whatever these changes are, they're long overdue... Tar Pit has been stupid since its inception, and Carnal Chill is unique but that's actually somewhat bad... It's a 180 potency ranged AoE attack... That's kind of amazing... At the same time though... If you're using that to deal damage and kill someone, you're not using it for that -20% damage dealt... Those two aspects of the skill do not have particularly good synergy, one detracts from the other... Seeing someone get away on 5% HP and thinking "If I had Carnal Chill, they'd be dead" is shitty... Killing someone but being able to provide zero utility while doing so is also shitty... Tar Pit is just straight up an attack, the Heavy is fairly meaningless (at least for Feast) and the less said about the drain effect the better (it's stupid, really really stupid)... Both skills seem to imply they were going for a DPS route for Dark Knight in PvP, yet Warrior has a flat out 20% lead on Dark Knight in terms of raw DPS... That's perfectly fine IMO though, considering Warrior has to earn that lead with Maim/Storm's Eye, all Dark Knight needs to do is manage MP, something perfectly doable with Blood Weapon.
I actually really like the concept behind Carnal Chill, having a skill that is either good for DPS or good utility is fine IMO, but there has to be some pay-off to such a thing... Right now I'd describe the three tanks as;
Paladin; Low DPS, High Utility, High Survivability.
Warrior; High DPS, Mid Utility, Mid Survivability.
Dark Knight; Mid DPS, Low Utility, Low Survivability.
The only thing Dark Knight really has going for it is the same (or similar) defensive cooldowns as Paladin while naturally being on the up in terms of DPS... Dark Knight has no analogy for Clemency or Thrill of War, Thrill of Battle, Second Wind, or Equilibrium, though... Dark Arts Abyssal Drain is worse than a Paladin casting Cure IMO (it was better in Frontlines since Abyssal Drain is designed with large groups in mind for PvE, 4v4 it is just worthless) and Grit Souleater has too many issues... The wind-up makes it useless for burst healing (which is arguably what you want in PvP) and the fact that you have to be in Grit? Ugh... Losing Blood Weapon just isn't worth it... Utility Dark Knight has one Stun, Carnal Chill, Delirium, and Dark Arts Dark Passenger for Blind (much more costly than Flash, much harder to aim, not possible to spam, but that synergy with Dark Arts Dark Dance is nice, just try to forget that for the same MP a Paladin could cast Clemency twice for 2400~3600 potency heal), though that suffers the same dilemma Carnal Chill has (it's more useful to snipe someone with a 250 potency ranged attack than it is to have a gimped version of Flash). I'm not counting Reprisal, though were I to list Paladins strengths I'd count Shield Swipe, because Dark Knight doesn't have Raw Intuition for some reason, while Paladin has Sheltron. Delirium, like Rage of Halone, I've never seen as much of a strength though... Paladin against a Ninja? Worthless. Dark Knight against a Bard? Same thing... Meanwhile, Warrior has Storm's Path, which is the same thing but not tied to a specific stat...
This is where things get iffy... Carnal Chill is a flat out damage reduction, you pop that on someone and they're dealing less damage, doesn't matter who they attack. Testudo you can get around by just attacking someone else, and Thrill of War doesn't actually mitigate anything, it's closer to Clemency at this point, an emergency heal. Testudo is powerful though, 50% reduction when buffed... Ideally, I land Carnal Chill on the enemy melee, ranged and tank, then that's three lots of -20% and my entire group is technically seeing -60% damage reduction... Paladin pops Testudo? One person is taking 50% damage, everyone else is still taking 100%... Carnal Chill also lasts longer...Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I think the main issue with with that is the same issue with Abyssal Drain... It's very powerful, just only against large groups... In 4v4 it's easy to remain spread out so the returns are greatly diminished... That's probably one of Dark Knights problems... It's very AoE driven and that just doesn't translate well into Feast... -
03-27-2016, 06:37 PMnickxI didn't say Dark Knight buffs weren't needed. I'm saying that it's good that SE recognized they're weak before starting Season 1. Otherwise, Dark Knights would have been in a bad place for the next few months in PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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03-27-2016, 07:04 PMNalienSure, I just have a hard time being grateful all things considered... Dark Knight was okay before 3.22, it needed some adjustments, but it was perfectly valid as a fairly aggressive interrupter... I really don't think they should have rolled out 3.22s changes without having something ready for any of the Jobs worst hit by it... I'm glad they have changes coming before the first season (though if I'm honest that's more to do with the shoddy rating/matchmaking system than anything else), but I'm certainly not going to be grateful considering the Job was essentially neutered for two weeks...Quote:
Originally Posted by nickx
Changes to Dark Knight are long overdue, and I guess some would say the same thing about interrupts, but that doesn't make the current state of affairs any less hasty... Should they have left interrupts as they were? Probably not, but changing that while leaving Dark Knight as it was was not great... IMO all this could have been in 3.25, we'd have an interrupt adjustment and Dark Knight wouldn't be left in the dust... I honestly found Yoshida going "We're making things easier for casters, you'll have to change your approach to use Stuns and Silences to counter them now!" a tiny bit insulting, considering Dark Knights tool set...
From my perspective, the whole thing has just been shitty... The Live Letter didn't particularly help matters... -
03-27-2016, 11:31 PMRiceisNiceTestudo, when traited, is a25% reduction for the entire party in a 15 yalm radius for 20 seconds. Thrill of War is 25% hp max hp and healing for 25 seconds in a 15 yalm radius, which also spills over into the interrupt threshold. Carnal chill is 20 seconds for 20% reduction, requires you to hit the enemy in a 5 yalm radius (better hope they're grouped), and can be cleansed/purified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Wherever you're getting your information on testudo is outdated, it's been a party-wide buff for a while now. -
03-27-2016, 11:45 PMNalien
Oh, they changed Testudo back to AoE? Great, OK then, Carnal Chill sucks. Needs a higher potency and greater range at the very least. The fact that you can Purify it seems like somewhat of a non-issue to me. The same is technically true of Testudo, though only Monk has a GCD option for that, while all healers have a GCD option for removing debuffs. Given we can't specifically target status effects to remove I don't see either as reliable enough to really care for, though obviously Carnal Chill is a lot easier to remove... Purify? Would someone really blow Purify on removing Carnal Chill? If they do then I'd call that a fairly nice advantage if anything; "Thanks for blowing Purify, now eat Full Swing"
Yeah though, if they changed Testudo back to AoE then Carnal Chill is f*cking stupid... Haven't played Paladin since... Secure? Maybe a bit of Slaughter IDK, I remember it being AoE then getting changed to single target... -
03-27-2016, 11:49 PMRiceisNiceWell I wasn't speaking exclusively of purify, but esuna and paeon. And honestly, if purify means you get a secure kill, it was a good use of it. If you're down a dps, full swing's effectiveness goes down significantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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03-27-2016, 11:51 PMNalien
Living Dead is probably clouding some of my judgment on how Purify should be used, too... Other than denying Summoners their burst (someone needs to make a compilation of Tri-disaster > Purify > Fester misses moments, it would be beautiful...) that's all I've used it for for a long time...
Thinking about it, I wonder if Carnal Chill could get the same treatment as Walking Dead...