As it stands, Hide is probably one of the worst abilities in the game right now with very little use. I just want to list a few things that I personally have a problem with and would love to see changed in the future.
There isn't any real reason to cast Hide for those 12 levels, and I'd like to see a class defining mechanic get a lottle more early game love. Perhaps something like double potency on the first attack used from stealth, with the exception of Trick Attack and Sneak Attack. Assuming people initiate with SE (150 potency), it would still be a weaker potency than SA (500 from Front) and TA (400 from behind).
- Rogues get it at level 10, yet don't have any abilities to use from a hidden state until level 22.
- The movement speed reduction while stealthed serves no real purpose and hinders the job theme as a whole.
As a rogue, I can kind of understand it hindering movement speed as it's new to your character. However after leveling some and even advancing to the Ninja class and becoming "one with the shadows," so to speak, there's no reason to be extremely slow while stealthed.
I would tie it into the level 20 trait Fleet of Foot by making the trait "Increased movement speed, allowing you move move normally while effected by Hide. Effect nullified if weapons coated with wasp or viper venom in PvP"
- There's no clear indication on as to which enemies will knock you out of stealth
Nothing is more aggravating than trying to position yourself in an easy spot to initiate on an enemy then being knocked out of stealth by it for no reason. Apparently some enemies operate on a "sonar" and can be pulled by the sound of footsteps, while others won't attack until they actually see you in front of them. It's impossible to tell what does what and every time you try to stealth near a pack of mobs in a dungeon, you risk pulling the entire group and making your party mad.
I understand bosses immidiately knocking you out of stealth upon combat being initiated, but some clarification on other enemies would be great. Even if the display only shows up for ROG/NIN that would be a huge improvement over the current system.
- Missed oppurtunity to make Smoke Screen great
A lot of people I know aren't happy with the current version of Smoke Screen. While it does have it's uses, I believe it should operate differently rather than just being Quelling Strikes placed on another party member because the current version feels very lackluster and unfun to use.
My ideal version of smoke screen would be when casted at a party member, it applies a movement-hindered stealth for 5 seconds and cuts their current threat in half. Of course the values could be altered for balancing purposes.
That's the gist of my post, I want the stealth mechanic to be fun. When I think Ninja it's usually something along the lines of "Master of Shadows, unrivaled assassins etc.", but right now I just feel like a knife-wielding acrobatic wizard casting lightning and water at people.
I'd love to know what my fellow ninjas think, would love it more if people expanded upon these ideas or even added their own. Thanks for reading!
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03-26-2016, 12:33 PMpls_noRogue/Ninja - Could we please get Hide changed or overhauled?
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03-26-2016, 01:21 PMMagiusNecros
Kinda wish Hide dropped all Enmity but that's just me.
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03-26-2016, 03:29 PMShurrikhanSince it currently can't be used if you have any enmity on you, I'm guessing your first wish is that it's usable in combat (now alike to an Elusive Jump without the movement)?Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
@OP
I feel the same way, and much more strongly so when leveling. Stealth in general in this game is rather limited, and Hide just makes that painfully apparent. However, I don't recall being knocked out of stealth by unmarked enemies. Proximity is a factor for all mobs, and detector mobs are all marked with an eye above them while stealthed. The only thing that really annoyed me was that certain zero-damage knockbacks or near-zero AoEs could drop it, which then actually made it better to Shukuchi in, Hide from right in front of your enemy, and Trick or Sneak Attack from there, which didn't exactly seem... stealthy.
When I first saw that I'd be getting abilities called Smoke Screen and Shadewalker, I had tremendous expectations. I had hoped Smoke Screen could be a saving LoS CD by which to debuff and draw ranged mobs towards the party or protect the party at accuracy cost while forcing ranged attackers to close in to maintain damage. I thought at best it might even allow restealths, a bit overpowered but at least worthy of its 3-minute CD. Instead we got a supportive Quelling Strikes.
Shadewalker, though incredible as is, I thought would play more with the idea of casting and manipulating Shades, not just to transfer enmity, but to take hits or attack another target with copied melee attacks while afar. That said, even as is, I can't exactly fault this ability. The only time it could seem lackluster is when the tank doesn't know how to make use of the enmity transfer through aggressive play. -
03-26-2016, 04:44 PMTintlol, no thanks. i don't want to be killed by some random ninjas...Quote:
Originally Posted by pls_no
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03-26-2016, 05:01 PMpls_noAh, well I was unaware of the eye or maybe I'm just not paying attention, it just always seemed random on what could see me in dungeons and what couldn't. I'll keep an eye out, but future clarification such as an active help window would be nice for those unaware.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I definitely agree with your post though. The support aspect is nice, but never used effectively.
I threw in the movement-hindered aspect to sort of balance it in PVP. It would still break upon ability use like normal stealth, but I see your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tint
The primary aspect would be the enmity drop, but the applied stealth is just a nice touch to keep the job theme in play. -
03-26-2016, 05:04 PMMoqi
Agreed on Hide. I am leveling Rogue right now and I can't ever be bothered to use it because of the movement speed reduction.
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03-26-2016, 06:44 PMRudowski_Supreme
As much as I agree that thematically Hide and some other abilities are lacking, I think gameplay wise Hide was designed purely for PVP. With the way the FFXIV world is designed at the moment there is no need for a stealth ability anyway. In PVP however it works exactly as expected - enemies cannot detect a hiding Ninja, so he does work as an assassin that can sneak up to a healer and take him out quickly with a burst damage.
That being said, Sneak Attack still makes little sense when paired up with Trick Attack. The 10% increased damage taken debuff for 10 sec from Trick easily outweighs the 100 extra potency from Sneak Attack even in a 1:1 situation in PVP, so Sneak is rarely a better option. I can imagine only one situation for Sneak in PVP - you were unable to Hide and your Sneak/Trick CD is open, so use Suiton and just Sneak Attack during the 1:1 duel. -
03-26-2016, 06:45 PMRudowski_Supreme
As for Smoke Screen and Shadewalker - yes, they do lack thematically, same as Armor Crush (why in the world ability called "Armor Crush" extends the duration of attack speed magic?! and does nothing related to actual armor crushing :D). My biggest problem however is that you are supposed to be just fine without them, meaning that they are very situational and you and your party need to know how to take full advantage of them.
All in all despite having 2 abilities you never use in PVE (and 1 trait, All Fours anyone?) and 2 abilities being very situational Ninja is still competitive with other DPS classes so can't complain too much there. ^_^ -
03-26-2016, 09:35 PMMagiusNecrosWould like that but Suiton complicates things I bet. Not many times you will actually use hide in combat outside of PvP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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03-26-2016, 09:59 PMpls_noKind of silly to design the primary theme behind rogues/ninjas on PVP when XIV has been a very PVE-oriented game since its conception. Disappointing that this is probably the case, but still silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudowski_Supreme
Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy with the gameplay of ninja and how we stack up against the other classes. I'm just hoping they redesign the stealth mechanic sometime in the future, like in 4.0, rather than just add more abilities to clutter my bars. I'd love to see them retune and redefine existing concepts. Hope I'm making sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudowski_Supreme
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03-26-2016, 11:09 PMShurrikhanIf I recall correctly, all dungeon mobs are detector mobs. So you always just wait for your tank to pull, run up, Hide in plain sight, and then open up on them. The ones that do anything to the whole party (be it an AoE, debuff, or knockback) just make it all the harder to reach them, Hide, and Trick/Sneak attack in time before being automatically entered into combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by pls_no
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03-26-2016, 11:27 PMRiceisNiceBoss aggro knocks you out of stealth, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The matter of fact is, ther stealth aspect really seems like an afterthoguht at this point. You use it in PvP and that's about it. And it's 2-sided for that because your team can't see you when you're stealthed, which is equally just as infuriating since they tend to initiate their burst without anyone else (me) to follow up :x -
03-27-2016, 07:25 AMmyahele
At the very least make sneak attack not share timer with trick attack. It'll be useless on bosses, but atleast it'll be a nice burst/opener on mobs and dungeons.
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03-27-2016, 09:53 AMDubah
I can understand the movement reduction requirement, and the only real use it has til 22 is just to serve as a way to do storyline. But it annoys me that i can't use it on boss, as soon as tank aggro's it drops, super annoying until i can get the ninjutsu for stealth. The skill really sucks, the only use it has is sneaking by the level 50 hunts that attack anyone in the noob zones... That is more annoying than a useless skill
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03-27-2016, 10:47 AMMagiusNecros
If you want speedy stealth you can always go Sprint > Hide.
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03-27-2016, 11:06 AMShurrikhanStill a shame you can't use the opposite order, nor Invig or buff up from stealth.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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03-27-2016, 11:26 AMMagiusNecrosYeah the skill in that sense is complete shit. Just like Mug is complete shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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03-28-2016, 06:53 AMgarret_hawkeWhich part the original that i saw proc once or the irrelevant lifesteal every minute and a half ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
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03-28-2016, 07:03 AMMagiusNecrosThe original part. I don't really understand the venom effect either. I mean as a longtime FF fan Mug should be stealing stuff and could help gather materials but eh only seen it proc twice in all my time with the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by garret_hawke
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03-28-2016, 08:40 AMKolsykol
Might as well just change the effect of viper to make you run faster in Hide or something.
The heal from Mug is pathetic, lol. I wouldn't miss it one bit. -
03-28-2016, 01:59 PMShurrikhanI have a habit of living with 2 hp after Second Wind and Viper-Mug, so I can't say I wouldn't miss it at all, but it truly is beyond underwhelming. Honestly, when I first heard that we'd be getting two poisons I thought we'd be either more (optionally) enfeeble-centric, or burn mana and TP faster and use our poisons to compensate with either, possibly even adjusting the effect of Goad. Instead it was just silence->stun in exchange for tiny heal->none. It's not like we needed more, exactly, but it's certainly a waste when you consider that apart from those two little bits the entire system could have been handled just as well by further addition of any of the base +10/20% skill damage traits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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03-28-2016, 08:24 PMgarret_hawkeMaybe they could change the effect to: mug give livesteal for x sec.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol