The Final Chorus

Now that Nidhogg is at full power and ready to exact his vengeance, will Hresvelgr's brood and the Eorzean Alliance rally to Ishgard's defense given recent events? And will Tiamat be convinced to break free of Allagan purgatory?

There's no guarantee he'd be satisfied with just destroying Ishgard; he may end up trying to finish what Bahamut started five years ago given how superOMGpissed he is.

The first thought I had was that Hraesvelgr's brood would be forced to pick a side after the attack on Vidofnir. Pretty powerful scene in your head, right? Dragoon and dragon on the same side? Horde against horde? On one hand, suddenly you have Ishgardians doing what they do best instead of denying who they are, and for the first time ever, for a real cause. They'd basically be fighting directly for the right to peace, and forging bonds with the dragons to do so - the exact opposite of the last thousand years.

On the other hand, that's rather predictable... and clean... and convenient... but maybe that's what we need to get past this. The war thus far was anything but and there's no reason to keep dragging it out. Everyone knows the catalyst for improving relations needs to come from somewhere. Suddenly everything works if this is the case.

Aside from the fact that... can we really afford to solve this problem by killing yet another Celestial Dragon?

Or do we write Nidhogg off as a lost cause, dead as long as Ratatoskr in all the ways that matter?

Leaves the door open to try to save Estinihogg, at least.

The Alliance doesn't seem to be interested in dealing with Ishgard's problem with dragons, but if they deem Nidhogg a danger to the realm then I can see them taking it more seriously; otherwise it seems to an Ishgard-Dravanian conflict.

Additionally, I don't think Hraesvalgr's brood have much of a choice other than join Ishgard against Nidhogg or join him (not likely). By making an example of Vidofnir "Join us or face the consequences" Both their brood have been at odds with each other; the FATEs in Churning Mists highlights that. Although the implication of what Nidhogg did is pretty clear.

Would be interesting if his other brother/sister from another continent will join.

Lastly, I wonder if Lahabrea is somehow involved?

I doubt Tiamat will do anything.

I'm not certain their involvement is going to factor as much, though it would be a good way to coax Ishgard into the alliance and keep them there this time, because we totally helped you guys solve your dragon problem, right?

it all does seem simple on paper, kill nidhogg, and the rabble of his brood will be directionless, unable to mount a proper offense(or even better , lulled by hreasvelgr's uncontested overtones of peace, assuming he sides with us)

The personal wrinkle lies in HOW to "kill Nidhogg". and while the peace between man and dragon may be won, its mortal actors may yet have a bone to pick with each other behind the scenes.

I'm hoping for drama myself, instead of a "all's well that ends well" conclusion, this is the sort of thing that needed to be worked at for years, right?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Aside from the fact that... can we really afford to solve this problem by killing yet another Celestial Dragon?

Or do we write Nidhogg off as a lost cause, dead as long as Ratatoskr in all the ways that matter?

Leaves the door open to try to save Estinihogg, at least.

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I don't see any other alternatives. Niddy has no intention of negotiating and he's been purposely prolonging the war for 1000 years so he can torture the people that attacked him and his kind forever. I firmly believe he is a lost cause and what do you do with your losses? Write them off.

I'm not sure saving nidhogg is the problem, its which road Hraesvelgr will take (he may see himself as responsible for the war as well, he did save nidhogg from death in the first place) and if we can save Estinien, who is possessed by Nidhogg and would make a shiny trophy of the war's end. ( there's more than one answer to the question "what's one friend/soldier/lolDRG worth?" and hopefully not everyone will agree by the hour of battle.)

Heavensward cannot end with another cliffhanger like 2.55
Serioudly, being repetitive in those cases is not good n a game. I would say that this will end somehow like a "light at the end of the tunnel" thing.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Heavensward cannot end with another cliffhanger like 2.55
Serioudly, being repetitive in those cases is not good n a game. I would say that this will end somehow like a "light at the end of the tunnel" thing.

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I think a cliffhanger, or at least a vision of future events, will be a given (got to sell that expansion) that doesn't mean we'll be run out of town again(that was stupid anyway), it could be a number of different things born of success or tragedy.

We might have a falling out, and leave on our own.
We might be celebrated, but not feel like celebrating.
We might be enjoying ourselves, then feel a more severe swoon of a vision like from 2.0.
or we might be saying our goodbyes, as we hear word from yda and paplymo.

these are just examples, and new events can cause even more, but I'm sure it won't be the same(hoping it isn't, too)

We get a cliffhanger at the end of every patch. So I have no doubt that we'll get another one at the end of the expansion. I don't believe it's a bad thing - so long as it's not another cop out. If a major character is assumed dead then they need to remain dead and not just emerge largely unscathed in a future patch.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I think a cliffhanger, or at least a vision of future events, will be a given (got to sell that expansion) that doesn't mean we'll be run out of town again(that was stupid anyway), it could be a number of different things born of success or tragedy.

We might have a falling out, and leave on our own.
We might be celebrated, but not feel like celebrating.
We might be enjoying ourselves, then feel a more severe swoon of a vision like from 2.0.
or we might be saying our goodbyes, as we hear word from yda and paplymo.

these are just examples, and new events can cause even more, but I'm sure it won't be the same(hoping it isn't, too)

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Probably I misundestood the meaning of cliffhanger I apologize. I assume we will not have a super mass tragedy like on 2.55.
I just hope is not repetitive.

Considering that Yoshida said sometime ago that the Dragonsong War would be concluded within the 3.0 series, a cliffhanger seems very unlikely. Regardless of that, I like SOME things to have a proper conclusion instead of nothing but a trail of breadcrumbs. Besides, you can have cliffhangers for other story elements like the Garleans.

I have to wonder if the scenes on the 'Heavensward' opening actually depict the final stage of the war?

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I have to wonder if the scenes on the 'Heavensward' opening actually depict the final stage of the war?

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Some of the discrepancies from the Dragonsong opening could be attributed to taking place in Dark/Derplander's world to cover the Hraesvelgr/Nidhogg oversight when making the intro movie lol. I think it would be a nice little twist.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The personal wrinkle lies in HOW to "kill Nidhogg".

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Easy, we already killed his body, now we need to destroy his eyes.

Midguardsormr makes the basis for this idea since, despite being killed decades ago, that his spirit remained and he has since constructed a new body.

Ratatoskr was bith slayn AND had her eyes destroyed (possibly litterally eaten too) so she's perma dead.

With his eyes removed Nidhogg's body was on the brink of death until Hrasvelgr loaned him one of his eyes.

This suggests that the eyes are the key to their existence and that as long as their eyes exist so does their spirit. Which could allow them to potentially form a new body (as Midguardsormr did) or possibly possess one like Nidhogg did.

I like how a dragon's eyes are literally the window to their soul.

Hard part with destroying Nidhogg's eyes is the fact that they're attached to a highly trained Dragoon. Not that it was any better when they were attached to a huge angry dragon though...

Hraesvelgr is a certainty in the final battle I think; Nidhogg has made clear that any who do not fight beside him will be treated as an enemy and this will force his brother to finally intervene. Tiamat, however, I think is unlikely to join the fray as she still wishes to serve penance for corrupting the memory of Bahamut and I think this will do nothing to change that.

As for the Eorzean Alliance I'm really not sure what to expect. All the story pertaining to Ishgard joining the alliance is, I think, actually just setting up for the four city states to declare war on Garlemald. I'm not sure if we'll see much from them until the Dragonsong War is actually over.

Honestly the real question at this point is how we'll kill Nidhogg. When we fought him in the Aery he was only at half power due to missing an eye AND he was being weakened by Estinien's eye. He was extremely weak compared to his true strength. We're likely not going to be able to just fight him head on this time... I'm hoping we get to use that airship at Cloudtop at last; it's been sitting there conspicuously for ages now and we know it was built for combat with the dragons.

A Steps of Faith-esque battle aboard the Protector/Protecteur would be kind of nice, but I shudder to think of what happened to poor Vishap post nerf. (Why the hell does the map labeling spell it -eur when all other ingame references it as -or?)

Then again, coming to terms with the idea that one day you'll be able to solo all the old content in this game is something I'm expecting to wrestle with for a while.

A fight where he switched between dragon and man forms would be nice too, but honestly I have no idea what to expect or what I'd want from an in-game trial/dungeon confrontation with Nidhogg. The Aery was already testing my limits of acceptability, lol.

What I am also wondering is how Dark Dorklander is going to fit with the rest of the story? We run into him in 3.1 and he sods off.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What I am also wondering is how Dark Dorklander is going to fit with the rest of the story? We run into him in 3.1 and he sods off.

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Maybe they (The Warriors of Darkness) was meant to be like Ysayle, Aymeric and "The Mask" (the guy at Ala Mhigo, not Unukalhai)? Characters introduced a few patches early but remain in the background or as enigmas until the next expansion?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What I am also wondering is how Dark Dorklander is going to fit with the rest of the story? We run into him in 3.1 and he sods off.

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Keep in mind Elidibus was introduced in 2.1 and has only directly interacted with our character once, despite us having about 6 different scenes from his PoV. Like Elidibus, the WoDs are meant for the longer term, not the shorter term.

However, I believe we have a Nabriales thing here more than an Elidibus one; Nabriales was shown a few times on and off throughout 2.X, first being introduced in 2.0, then shown quite strongly in 2.1, then less so in 2.3 and 2.4 before finally taking an active role in 2.5. What Nabriales did was not kill Moenbryda in the overall plot, but open the plot to further developments regarding Ascian mortality and how active/passive Elidibus is.

The WoD will do is the same; they themselves may not be as relevant as we'd like to believe, they're probably not going to be game changers that destroy the world, but what they reveal and the side effect of their defeat/existence in general will be what changes things. It's that suspiciously unnamed Overlord, I swear.

I wouldn't put my money on Darklander until the end of 3.4 or 3.5 - if there is a 3.5.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I wouldn't put my money on Darklander until the end of 3.4 or 3.5 - if there is a 3.5.

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That would be a shame, I know there is a need of not wasting his menace on weaker plots, but there is so much that could be done with Derplander it isn't even funny.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I wouldn't put my money on Darklander until the end of 3.4 or 3.5 - if there is a 3.5.

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Agreed. He's not a part of the Dragonsong War story arc, he's just been revealed to us early to make his presence feel more organic when we reach the point that he becomes significant. I'm currently expecting we'll have a confrontation with him and his group during whatever events lead into 4.0 following the defeat of Nidhogg.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Lastly, I wonder if Lahabrea is somehow involved?

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I don't think Lahabrea wouldn't be involved in the situation because he got wiped by Thordan

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Originally Posted by DreamAngel-Ren

I don't think Lahabrea wouldn't be involved in the situation because he got wiped by Thordan

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Not necessarily. His physical body was killed and then his aether was absorbed into the eye on Thordan's sword. There's a great deal of speculation on whether it's possible he's still alive but trapped inside the eye (and thus now residing within Estinihogg).

I wouldn't be surprised if whatever we do to save Estinien inadvertently saves Lahabrea, assuming he is still alive.

Lahabrea is defintely coming back, with somewhat of a chance of possessing Estinien and thus we have to save him---again.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Not necessarily. His physical body was killed and then his aether was absorbed into the eye on Thordan's sword. There's a great deal of speculation on whether it's possible he's still alive but trapped inside the eye (and thus now residing within Estinihogg).

I wouldn't be surprised if whatever we do to save Estinien inadvertently saves Lahabrea, assuming he is still alive.

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Oh snap! I didn't think about that D: So then, when the eyes are destroyed THEN Lahabrea would be dead for good, lol. I totally forgot that Ascians don't have a physical form.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Lahabrea is defintely coming back, with somewhat of a chance of possessing Estinien and thus we have to save him---again.

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I kinda hope when we free Estinien from Nidhogg it's without Lahabrea attached. I'd find it darkly humorous if Thancred got posessed again...but to make it a bit more dramatic maybe for good?

Laha's role is over I think. He was already brought back after 2.0, why bring him back yet again? Why can't a dead character STAY dead for once?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Laha's role is over I think. He was already brought back after 2.0, why bring him back yet again? Why can't a dead character STAY dead for once?

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Because his fate, unlike Gaius (arguably), Teledgi and Hauchefaunt's is very ambiguous. Ascians are incorporeal beings that need a specific item (that was used on Igeyorm instead) or else they can potentially escape death.

Plus at this point people are gonna be just as skeptical of character deaths unless they are A: Killed on screen, and B: had their body be damaged beyond all repair with visible effects (Like Teledji who was chapped in half by Tizona). I imagine at this point comic book and Disney fans are making jokes about the whole thing now

So that begs the question why that Sahagin priest, who got eaten in a similar fashion, hasn't come back yet either.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Laha's role is over I think. He was already brought back after 2.0, why bring him back yet again?

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Thordan's betrayal of the Ascians, as great as it was for an expansion's story arc, can arguably be seen as an unceremonious way to close the book on one of the first major antagonist of A Realm Reborn (even the Mothercrystal's first vision was spent on him). I guess I could probably accept it if the team wasn't willing to let die "deader than dead" until a little later. Doubly so for Gaius van Baelsar, the first "face of the enemy" for x|v.

Granted, I could probably live with the loss of Lahabrea; especially if it turns out that Elidibus is an even bigger threat than the black cloaks.

I know, I know; it's just a favorite pet theory of mine; the likelihood of it is no better or worse than a coin toss alongside the idea that he's been telling us the truth. A straw antagonist would be pretty fun in Lahabrea's case, though, and it'd certainly make his moustache-twirling villainy easier to swallow.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So that begs the question why that Sahagin priest, who got eaten in a similar fashion, hasn't come back yet either.

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That is an excellent point. Leviathan and King Thordan were both primals, and both consumed the "soul orb". But. BUT. MAYBE there is a caveat.

Leviathan consumed the living aether of the soul orb into himself, presumably shearing it apart and adding it to his own form and magicks. Also presumably, the Sahagin Elder's aether was scattered into uncountable pieces as it re-entered the Lifestream alongside Leviathan's own.

The aether consumed by Ascalon made no such journey. It was placed into a container: an eye of Nidhogg. Assuming that the aether didn't lose its coherency and irrecoverably "mingle" amongst the other contents in the bottomless wellspring of the eye, it's theoretically possible for Lahabrea to have survived.

Or, perhaps worse, his fragments could be withdrawn from the eye and reconfigured into something close to, but not exactly, Lahabrea.
("AHAHAH! THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM!" etc.)

Still keeping my hopes down. My heart can't take the hope of Best Ascian returning, only to be shattered again when he doesn't.

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Granted, I could probably live with the loss of Lahabrea;

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I don't think we can be friends anymore.

Any ending in which Lahabrea hasn't been messing with Estihogg from within his Eye is an inferior ending... How amazing a conclusion would it be for Lahabrea to have done exactly what he did with Thordan and Ysayle, and have Estihogg summon a Primal unto himself? We'd have Shinryu, then Omega can burst onto the stage to fulfill its franchise driven destiny... Shinryu gets defeated, Nidhoggs Eyes shatter, Estinien is saved! Then Lahabrea is freed and sneaks off to fulfill his true scheme; Summoning Zodiark unto himself. Providing a common enemy for us and Elidibus/Darklander.

It's either that, or Estihogg flew off to skies unknown to drop the revelation that Eorzeans, specifically Ishgardians, are summoning Primals, on Garlemald, setting the stage for a new conflict with Garlemald and giving Nidhogg the last laugh as he dies while Garlemald marches to exact his revenge for him... Ishgard will never know peace because the hammer of the Empire is about to fall down on it, well played Nidhogg...

Full End of an Era level Shinryu v Omega, followed by a 3.5 trial against Zodibrea is easily the more epic of the two, though... Involving Garlemald sets the stage up nicely for future plots, though... Lets just see how long I can refrain from table flipping as someone is no doubt going to question why Nidhogg and Garlemald would team up, despite me suggesting nothing of the sort... It happens every time, would be a shame to disappoint me now...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Then Lahabrea is freed and sneaks off to fulfill his true scheme; Summoning Zodiark unto himself. Providing a common enemy for us and Elidibus/Darklander.

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My one true hope, this would be the best result for everyone. And by everyone I mean me.

(though I'm all for Shinryu-Nidhogg, too).

I'm prepared for my heart to be broken.

The thing is, even if they do bring Lahabrea back it'll likely just be for another largely underwhelming encounter where the Warrior of Light triumphs yet again. Or they completely change his personality and 'redeem' him. It's also why I don't really want Gaius to return - because things will no doubt play out in a similar manner.

We do, however, need long term antagonists that secure victory from time to time and don't just get killed off by the Warrior of Light. They seem to be doing that with Regula and Elidibus.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

We'd have Shinryu, then Omega can burst onto the stage to fulfill its franchise driven destiny...

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Whenever I put all of the knowns onto the table, this is where I start heading... but I try so hard not to look that far into the future. One change, one new piece, and the house of cards falls. But damn it, that doesn't mean I don't like it...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The thing is, even if they do bring Lahabrea back it'll likely just be for another largely underwhelming encounter where the Warrior of Light triumphs yet again. Or they completely change his personality and 'redeem' him.

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Agreed. The "this isn't even my final form" one ... final ... battle... against some kind of changed Ultimabrea is the only thing that doesn't make me sigh, lol. After Thancred and Igeyorhm, any more than that and he becomes Bartandalus.

And redemption... eugh. <shudders> Eugh. It'd be so unsatisfying watching him return in a redemptive arc; he doesn't even have any scores to settle with mine enemies in the first place. Lahabrea buggered up his own plans. Repeatedly. If he wants to take another shot at me, that's fine; you fall off the Nightmare, you get right back on. But the rest of these fights are mine.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's also why I don't really want Gaius to return

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...and that's probably why I could only like it in Gaius' case. That guy has perfectly justifiable bones to pick with everyone I hate. The Empire held him accountable for his failures even when the outcomes weren't even remotely foreseeable (THE KEEPER OF THE LAKE!?), they made him lapdog to an eikon-worshiping, moon-dropping madman, and then completely flew in the face of his decades of "It's what's best for the Empire." attitude by getting into a petty succession war and barely noticing as he tried to take Eorzea for the glory and stability of Garlemald as the true emperor wanted. And in that desperation, he was manipulated into his own downfall by the Ascians. Sure, he made his bed and he rightly had to lay in it. But, arguably, he could return with a different point of view with some claim to the ass-kicking. Dude has seen some sh[kupo!]t.

I'd love to see a Gaius that's resurrected for... like, barely any time at all. Like, how long we got to know Moenbryda. He comes back driven and self-sufficient and pissed off and takes his subjective vengeance so hard he gets himself killed again in some manner that gives me an opening to score an important victory. I really liked his whole, "we share a common goal, but you're no friend of mine" phase at the end of 1.0. He could take out Varis himself by ramming a dreadnaught through the bridge of the Gration in the middle of the battle for Ala Mhigo and I wouldn't even be mad.

If we go to Ala Mhigo, I'd quite like some Echo time jumps in which we can re-encounter Gaius during his "prime"... Not quite a Wings of the Goddess style time travel plot, but totally a Wings of the Goddess time travel plot... We help liberate Ala Mhigo in the present, but we can only do so because of events that happened in the past... Events we helped play out because Echo hacks, or rather just witnessed in person because the Echo is confusing... I think that would be the best way to reintroduce him as a serious antagonist, 2.0 did too much damage to his character IMO... Go back to a time before he was being manipulated and caring way too much about Cid... Bonus points if we can have Nero helping us in the present instead of Cid, and pop back in time and see a younger Nero as an antagonist...

I miss Echo time hacks... Heck, I just miss the Echo doing anything... These days it just feels like a lazy tool to provide exposition...

3.3 or 3.4 should conclude the Dragonsong War. 3.4 and 3.5 will be our lead ins into 4.0. I believe we will have to salvage our relations with Ul'Dah and work with them as we begin to figure out how to take back Ala Mhigo. Of course the story of the WoD and WoL is far from over.

Moose pretty much gave my thoughts on how I think Lahabrea could still be alive: Unlike the Sahagin Priest, Lahabrea was abosrbed into Nidhogg's eye which still holds its aether, while when we defeated Leviathan all of his aether was dispersed. Between that and Lahabrea also being far stronger than the Priest he easily could still be alive, though personally I don't think he can do anything until Nidhogg is defeated again. Unless it turns out Eistinien really is in full control and just trying to bring the end of the Dragonsong War about in the only way he knows how.

On Gaius, I personally don't see him coming back in XIV, though Dissidia is fair game (and if any villian from XIV was brought in, should be him). A part of me would also rather him stay an antagonist, even if he ends up not being "fully" with the Empire. As in he's still gonna try and conquer Eorzea because he thinks it is best, but he might also end up gunning for becoming Emperor, most likely because he believes Varis's goals will bring about the ruin of the Empire. But thats only if he is alive.