Seeing that THM is going to be able to become a Black Mage, I wonder if it will gain some elemental spells and if CNJ will be geared more towards healing and buffing with a few offensive spells.
I'm asking because I know 1.20 will introduce changes to class actions, but I don't know if it will be anything drastic or not.
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10-24-2011, 06:49 AMKamikazeManWhat kind of changes do you think we'll see in 1.20 in regards to class actions?
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10-24-2011, 07:05 AMyukikaze_yanagi
for mages will probably be drastic changes, on the misure of removing elemental nukes from cnj to thm. Nothing it's setted on stone thou, and btw only SE know something right now.
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10-24-2011, 07:24 AMRyans
As far as I know, SE hasn't said THM is going to get BLM its all just assumptions. Yoshida said that we will know which caster gets which job when they release the patch notes for 1.20.
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10-24-2011, 07:25 AMNeptune
I think we'll see a bunch of jacked up changes to mages.
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10-24-2011, 07:27 AMTonkra
The Mage classes will receive the biggest change of the actions.
the problem is they try to put those two classes into the typical role models of a BLM/WHM.
i chosed to play conjurer because of the elemental attacks.. and now they're turning the conjurer as the basic class also into a whm rip off.
its like you would have patched the Wizzard in WoW into a priest and a priest into a wizzard... after people leveled them till max level. weee*
i think this is a really harsh measure, or is it just me??
i think its going to be like that for the mages:
CONJURER: Banish, Dia, Protect, Shell, Paralyze, Cure, Curega and so on
THM: Scourge, elemental spells, Poison, Bio, sleep, sleepga, silence, stat debuffs and so on.
like we know WHM/BLM from FFXI.
All i wonder about is... which skills THM/CON are going to get with switching to WHM/BLM job? hum? -
10-24-2011, 07:34 AMKamikazeManTrue, but it's the only logical job for a THM. CNJ is always the healer for parties so SE won't just force the healers to take the role of a Black Mage. If that's the case, THM will be a Black Mage, however it doesn't have most of the Black Mage spells....unless they won't change that and just allow the Black Mage to learn the spells on its own, which is doubtful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryans
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10-24-2011, 07:36 AMEcchi_Goshujin-sama
To be honest I think they will be moving the elemental nuke spells from CNJ to THM for the following reason: Intelligence Materia can be equipped to a THM one-handed and two-handed weapons but not any CNJ weapons. Based on the new stats, INT raises the magic potency which nuking spells use.
I was really hoping that CNJ gets BLM but looks like I will be leveling my THM to 50. I'm not much of a WHM kinda mage. -
10-24-2011, 07:44 AMAnswa
I'd rather we not hijack this thread into speculation over whether CNJ or THM will become BLM. There's this thread already.
I really have no clue what changes will arrive regarding abilities, but I am excited for the combo system that was mentioned, as well as GLD almost assuredly getting Dual Wield. -
10-24-2011, 08:02 AMRyansIt's not really hijacking the thread when the one who started it is the one who brought up the issue being debated, even if it isn't the issue they were trying to bring up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Answa
But I agree that casters will be getting the most changes and we don't know if they will be dramatically changing either one to fit into the role they are planning for them. For all we know THM could get all new healing spells and have CNJ de-emphasized in the healing category. Unlikely, but possible.
The changes they make in 1.20 will be what is in place for the rest of the foreseeable future so now would be the time for them to drastically change the classes to fit what they want them to be, even if it pisses people off. I'm all for them making people have to level the other caster if it doesn't get the job they wanted it to get so long as it makes the game better in the long run. Lets be honest, anyone who likes playing casters should be leveling them both anyways.
The only changes I see them making to DoW classes is adjusting recast timers or something small like that. They seem to have their roles already defined. -
10-24-2011, 08:10 AMJinkoYou can put Mag attack and elemental attack on con two handed though, no need to have int on a weapon when you have mag attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecchi_Goshujin-sama
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10-24-2011, 09:31 AMChiefCurrahee
I think we're gonna see a role reversal between Thm and Con.
I believe that THM will become the WHM. Why?
1)Their cone shaped AOE is more attuned to targeting party members. It's easier to cast buffs and AOE heals when you target everything thing between you and your intended target.
2) the word Thaumaturge means : Rare a performer of miracles. What's more miraculous than restoring a person back to health?
3) Conjurer is more ideal for mob targeting. AOE is ranged and circular.
4) Conjurers weapons are already elementally aligned. -
10-24-2011, 09:58 AMAlerith
Gladiator getting Dual Wield would be spectacular. It would open up the DD aspect of the job way more, and give it a lot of use when Paladin comes.
You can be Paladin for tanking or Gladiator for a hybrid DDtank -
10-24-2011, 10:14 AMSynfragI think it's the other way around. I'm pretty sure THM is going to be our healer class. The definition of Thaumaturgy is "Miracle Worker". They currently do have heals and do not have elemental spells. They also have Banish which is historically WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeMan
Conjurer already has almost all of the spells a BLM had in XI. Elemental enfeebles, nukes and AM spells.
Of course I could be completely wrong as logic often does not apply to XIV -
10-24-2011, 10:16 AMGriss
Yea i think the only thing that every one can agree on is that Con and thm are going to get major reshuffles.
Kind of sucks, have been ranking up thm on and off and i really enjoy the current play style. -
10-24-2011, 10:18 AMSynfrag
Paladin's don't dual wield... but the other way around for DD Glads yessir. I don't have glad leveled but would be nice to see.
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10-24-2011, 12:07 PMTibian
I don't really like to speculate, so I'll just place my suggestions here. I've posted them elsewhere, but since this is a relevant topic I might as well post it here.
I am mainly just involved with mages, and since mages are receiving the majority of the 1.2 class balances I compiled a list of what I think needs to change. Remember, they are just suggestions.
Healer Revisions- Cures still draw to much hate. Current popular opinion states cures are on a .75:1 ratio for hate vs dps/heals. Most healing level 3 spells are going to do upwards of 600-1k healing in one heal. Thats 750 enmity generated for one heal. Tanks really can't keep up with that at a significant pace unless they have accomplice (which is a pugilist skill!) Healing hate really needs to be thought out differently and not on a 1:1 or even .75:1 scale. I am not satisfied with healing enmity generation at all. A gladiator should be able to keep significant hate throughout the entire fight without leveling up MRD and PUG as well. Currently you need those three classes to be of any use as a tank.
- Durations on buffs are too small. I understand you want to balance this with "longer = weaker, shorter = stronger." You still can, by providing different and more exciting skills to use. Protect and shell are going to be the staples of battle. Currently having to cast them multiple times in boss fights is really annoying because of the AOE radius/range issues. The buffs should at least be a half hour. Then you can start looking into more impressive skills such as bravery/faith/bubble/regen/renew/mighty guard/etc as more active White Mage skills. Furthermore, I'd like to see Protect and Shell be instant cast and party wide (regardless of positioning). Having to group up every five minutes is ridiculous, especially when the positioning prediction/server lag causes problems. Protect/Shell are standard spells/buffs.
- Curaga definitely pulls way to much hate, and costs too much. The cost of the MP is close, but I'd like to see a 10-20% reduction in overall healing costs since spiritsong won't get much use in heavy moving fights. There should be a rotation of healers, but we need some wiggle room for when things go wrong.
- Curing debuffs should be consolidated into one spell. Esuna or Panacea should cure Poison/Silence/Paralyze together. Having to equip Paralyna/Poisona/Silena is just kind of nonsense because of slot costs.
- Stats for healing are still broken, unknown, and frustrating. I've been trying to put together my materia sets for gear. Unfortunately based on popular rumors, enhancing and enfeebling magic work based on tiers ans have a pathetic affect on casting. I'd like to put a disclaimer here and note that these stat evaluations may, and probably are wrong, but I still feel the weakness of stats vs materia are unjust and need to be evaluated further. 5 Vitality = 1 enhancing magic. Unfortunately, enhancing magic is tiered by 5's as well. Thus, it takes 20 vitality to see any effect on protect/shell. That effect, is 1 defense and 1 elemental Resistance coming from protect and shell respectively. Complete and utter nonsense. Please re-evaluate enhancing and enfeebling statistics so white mages actually don't spend millions on materia to have little to no affect on their spells.
- Situational and Instant Cast abilities. If you want to make healing more engaging, other than cure, with sprinkles of stoneskin and protect/shell in between, you need to have more engaging moves with some moves being instant cast (ie: no cast bar!) It would be great to have some type of self buffs that increase healing potency for a short period of time (with an animation that lasts the full duration of the buff), as well as moves that add some flare and fun for healers.
Caster DPS Revisions- Damage over time spells. I like the fact that DoTs are difficult to land. I think it makes for some engaging mechanics. Ie: Ogre fight where during enrage dots are easier to land. Unfortunately, when mages can't land dots, our dps sucks (which I'll get into in another section.). Dots need to be significantly buffed if the resistances are going to be higher to landing dots. Secondly, dot durations need a little love too. Its annoying seeing your buff go up, and then 5 seconds later seeing it vanish. Did it even do any damage? Lastly, we don't know how dot damage is calculated nor do we know how much the dots even do. I think SE needs to release some information here, or at least in 1.2 letting us know how dots work.
- Regular caster abilities are weak. (Scourge/Fire/Water/Banish/Etc)
I will note that I feel Thaumaturge is stronger than Conjurer. Probably due to elemental resistances as well as having more INT. However as I mentioned above, on bosses casters fall greatly behind other dps. I am calling for an overall damage buff in regular caster moves that fall within the 3-10 recast timer area. - Absorb Atk/Def/Acc/Eva spells are sadly still worthless compared to the other available options. This goes right hand in hand with the fact that stats don't mean enough yet.
- Sort of reiterating for a third time: stats for casters need to be redone again. This whole multi-tiered functional casting regarding stats and enhancing/enfeeble magic is a bit ridiculous and makes mages even more under powered than they already are.
Overall Mage Revisions and Current Impressions
Currently playing mage classes right now is sort of unfufilling. I enjoy being able to chainspell/profundity/blood rite/shadowsear x2, but that isn't enough for mages. Furthermore, the mages don't really have a clear distinction of class identity. To be honest, I'd rather heal and dps as a thaumaturge because I prefer the conal AOE better than the radial AOE. Unfortunately the lack of identity of being a healer, buffer, debuffer, or pure nuker is severely lacking. Yes there can and should be occasions where the roles overlap. A nuker/debuffer is something I am enjoying the most right now.
Stats should be reworked a bit. Vitality should not be tied to enhancing magic, and piety should be removed as a base statistic. I feel that adding enhancing magic to vitality shows you are trying to find additional statistics to place to validate keeping some. Removing piety can solve a lot of that problem. Since piety and MP are 1:1, split it up to where 1 MP = 2 Int and 1 MP = 2 Mind. Magic evasion can be placed on VIT and enfeebling magic should be tied to INT.
Furthermore, get rid of that awful tiered structure (if it actually exists) of enhancing/enfeebling magic. Or if keeping the tiered structure, make the gains much much much more prominent. Ie: Tier 1 Protect II = 81 Defense, Tier 2 Protect II = 91 defense, and so on. -
10-24-2011, 03:32 PMKenJammin
That was a great post Tibian, I don't play a caster but i agree with the way a lot of the stats work. I still have very little idea how each of them impact my characters abilities.
The materia system was a big let down for me, needing to spend all that time an effort to manipulate stats I don't fully understand and then trusting someone i don't know to attach it really discouraged me from investing time and energy into a system i can barely say that i understand. -
10-24-2011, 03:37 PMViridiana
Weren't they supposed to put out a list of prospective changes when 1.19 hit? What happened to that?
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10-24-2011, 03:44 PMShneibelwait for the producer letter is all that I can sayQuote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
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10-24-2011, 03:46 PMPlatinumstorm
I think we'll see profound status effects and changes to the moves so that they have a purpose outside of a visual. I'm hoping we'll see heavy visual revamps of the skills.
Also I do hope they give THM white mage and keep conjurer as a black mage in order to fit best with the lore. 50/50 chance on this here. -
10-24-2011, 05:11 PMEstellios
@Tibian: They said that there are still unimplemented Materia that they have planned, and my money is on enfeebling magic, enhancing magic, and shield Block rate.
@KenJammin: It's actually a pretty simple system that you will probably get once you attach materia the first time. Base stats, STR/VIT/DEX/MND/INT/PIE, enhance your overall consistency with actions based on those stats. Stuff like raw +Attack, +Magic Attack you will easily see the effects of once you add them. Just dive right into it because any materia helps out a lot. -
10-24-2011, 06:15 PMAntonn
Would be kinda interesting if they split it up & gave CNJ Astral based nukes & THM Umbral based nukes.
ie:
CNJ - Banish, Fire, Thunder, Wind, Dia, Cure, Curaga, Buffs, Maybe scrap Sacrifice for a straight up Regen
THM - Scourge, Water, Blizzard, Stone, Bio, Drain, Siphon, Absorbs, Debuffs
I highly doubt this would happen, just thought it would be interesting.
Other than the caster class overhaul, more new recipes which I can't wait for. -
10-24-2011, 08:22 PMJinkoAgreed its not likely to happen, one of these classes is going to get blackmage the other whitemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonn
Unless of course those two job stones are equipable on either class which could make things more interesting. -
10-24-2011, 11:28 PMyukikaze_yanagi1)it isQuote:
Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee
2) /care
3)it is
4)thm too. So what?
The problem is, they gave 3 raises and 2 aoe heals to CNJ,not thm. So, if they plan to give cnj blm, why they give it whm spells ?
It's quite logical :|
in before "they say they'll move elemental nukes to thm so they can move heals to him" :no.
They gave that spells to cnj with the new team, after they finalized jobs. So it's VERY unlikely they'll move it -
10-25-2011, 01:45 AMEstellios
Taking nukes/heals away from either mage class hurts their ability to solo/be versatile like a class is meant to be, so I don't think changes like that are in the cards.
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10-25-2011, 02:55 AMAlerithTechnically with the armory system, your class can still access those nukes and heals anyways. Even in the extreme case they moved all elemental nukes to THM, do you think your CNJ still couldn't access them? It's the very reason the armory system works the way it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
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10-25-2011, 03:02 AMBetelgeuzahI'd definitely take a guess that THM will become more BLM-centric class, while CNJ will take a more supporting role.Quote:
Originally Posted by KamikazeMan
It won't be as extremely one-or-the-other as BLM and WHM may be, but they'll definitely tilt towards one playstyle.
They seem to be doing away with action points for setting main class actions, so what I think will happen is that your class will be suited towards a certain playstyle (with a few complementing DD/healing/tanking skills), but by taking actions from other classes (whether through action points or some other system) you can become more versatile. -
10-25-2011, 03:16 AMgrandm
they said in 1.20 we will get a clear idea of which job our casters will get. i think its amazing how ppl are split right down the middle in what they think will happen. i can't wait to see which gets which.
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10-25-2011, 03:27 AMEstelliosTrue but pigeonholing classes that way IMO makes it pointless to add the job specialization when the base class itself is already specialized. Gladiator as it is now is already very much specialized as a tank which makes Paladin redundant, but if Gladiator actually does get the ability to dual wield then you have several different options for playstyle: All Defense/tanking as a Paladin, Middle-ground as a shield using gladiator, or offense-oriented dual wielding gladiator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alerith