Mechanic wise, who do you think is harder: Thordan or Sephirot?

I'm very curious, seeing as I'm getting some divided opinions, right now I feel like I'm struggling more to memorise Sephirot's pattern and that there's less room for error on Sephirot, this might be because he's a new fight and I can't dance around him yet, I'm not sure.

What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

I'm very curious, seeing as I'm getting some divided opinions, right now I feel like I'm struggling more to memorise Sephirot's pattern and that there's less room for error on Sephirot, this might be because he's a new fight and I can't dance around him yet, I'm not sure.

What do you guys think?

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Thordan imo it has way more mechanics than sephi.

mechanic wise, Thordan is harder.
which is more punishing when failing mechanics though, Seph wins.

I would say Thordan is a bit harder.

As for Sephirot EX mechanic memorization, there are Guevera Chesed (The raidwide aoe with 2 big spheres) before almost every major mechanic (Blue puddle, push back into adds, Tower, etc.) You might want to capitalize on that.

For Yesod(Yellow flash with invisible pillars), just make sure everyone is stacking when not doing mechanic and, during Da'at, make sure not to run into other players' position.

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Originally Posted by hagare

mechanic wise, Thordan is harder.
which is more punishing when failing mechanics though, Seph wins.

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I agree with this. Sephirot is more punishing if even one person fails mechanics at certain parts.

Hmm, well it's a tough call.

On the one hand, Thordan is 'outdated' in that the DPS 'checks' of that fight are easy to make. Back in the day, it was pretty hard to skip the final middle AoE without having (most) people alive for the whole fight. However, I do believe his mechanics are harder to understand and master, mostly because so many can be going on at once, and the "Knights of the Round" don't repeat. It's a solid rotation the whole way through, but it requires a lot of memorization. It recycles a LOT of Coil mechanics, which will be familiar to people who did Coil... but it can be difficult to explain some mechanics, for instance the "Dash" mechanic that targets healers on the first "Knights of the Round" in the final phase (reminiscent of T10).

On the other hand, Sephirot's mechanics are a bit more punishing in that, if you fail certain ones, it's almost definitely a wipe -- and I think there is a high percentage of that happening because of how few mechanics he actually has in the final phase. That said, the dps check *is* tighter right now (because he is 'current' content and rewards i220 weapons as opposed to the i205 from Thordan).

If we're going on the basics -- as in, how long will it take for me to teach people this fight... I'd go with Thordan. I think it would take me longer to teach a group Thordan than to teach a group Sephirot. This is, of course, assuming that everyone is on an even playing field as far as gear is concerned (fighting Thordan with the gear we had available then, and fighting Sephirot with the gear we have available now). Sephirot was only 'hard' for even raid groups at the beginning because we were all in i220 gear.

Thordan has more complicated mechanics that come at you fast and screw ups in the later phases can cause the group to fall apart, though for the most part, a death or two is manageable, as long as Thordan is facing the eye and no one gets hit with Dragons Gaze, its not too difficult.

Sephirot has much more punishing mechanics and even just one screw up in the second phase can bring everything down if its at the wrong time, you can handle some of the mechanics easy enough, but I find most groups struggle when it comes to the second add phase.

Both are tough fights, I think Thordan when it came out was the harder fight, but Sephirot is easily the most difficult Extreme primal, mostly because of how it punishes even one death with a likely wipe.

Its a tough call.

Thordan has more going on all at once, but is less punishing than Sephirot is. Failing mechanics in Sephirot will usually lead to you getting one shotted and depending on what mechanic it is, like moving too early for Pillar of Mercy + Yesod, can screw other party members up. The only mechanic that I remember leading to a party wipe in Thordan was failing Spear of the Fury somehow.

Despite this, I feel the "less going on" aspect about Seph EX is what makes it easier to teach and faster to understand. At the very least, I've had more successful farm groups with randoms than I did with Thordan.

Farmed both for some time, Thordan was definitely harder mechanics wise in my opinion.

Thordan has more mechanics to handle but the mechanics in Sephirot is much more punishing. For example, in P3, almost all the mechanics are one-shot kill and having 1 person die is enough to guarantee that another player (or more) will die even if it isn't their fault. In P1, the jump must be carried out with all 8 players alive in pugs. Having 1 person dead is enough to guarantee a wipe during that jump mechanic because you can't expect a pug team to react appropriately to something other than dps left heal/ot right.

And that is why Sephirot feels a lot more frustrating than Thordan, even though it apparently has easier mechanics. Having 7 competent players is not enough because 1 single bad player can cause those competent players to die for no reason.

Seph, it only takes one to screw it up for the rest.

I seem to remember Thordan having plenty of "mess this up and it's a wipe" mechanics.

Not getting a tower covered in phase 2 would paralyse the whole party, likely (though not always) resulting in failing Zephirin's DPS check.

Not sufficiently mitigating Zephirin's spear (on either the OT or the targeted healer) or Thordan's tank buster during phase 5 would cause Zephirin to immediately Sacred Cross the party for auto-wipe damage.

Not taking the blue marker far enough from the group in phase 7 would likely result in multiple deaths from the Dragon's Rage damage split.

And in addition to all this, most groups were of the mentality that if Zephirin shows up at all in phase 9, it's a wipe, even though you can heal through the massive party damage and win afterwards.

Sephirot has plenty of mechanics that will kill you (and you might take someone else with you, such as misplacing a Ratzon (especially the purple one) or not having enough green marks to get all the tethers), but the only one I think you can really screw your party with is Earth Shaker. I've even seen towers missed with no deaths at all (towers during adds-and-storm even) it's a pain for the healers but it's recoverable.

Thordan has more mechanics and stuff to be aware of like Dragons gaze as well as many other things but I'd say it has less instant death mechanics or situations where if one person dies then that means there's 95% chance of not being able to recover.

Sephirot has less mechanics and less randomization but if one person messes up nearly anything in P3 their fault or not then the whole trial goes down the drain
Very dangerous if someone dies on the green/orange marker portion of Phase 3

Thordan.
Even SE said Thordan was a uniquely difficult primal.

In my opinion, Sephirot is probaby the easiest EX primal yet.

I'm still having trouble on Thordan's last phase on which one you have to avoid the gaze while breaking fire link with fire aoe under you feet + random meteor hit over some people head + random Shiva's ice aoe under some people feet + the cone aoe from Thordan. It is even worst than my first time in T9 P4, you have 6 mecha to handle at the same time, litterally.

Thordan has much more mechanics, but most of them are not party wipe. Sephirot is more simple, but his mechanics are most of them party wipe if only one fail.

Thordan win for a bit, Sephirot mechacnis are more dangerous, but are much more easy to sucess. Thordan can be a chaos on the last phases.

Thordan, hands down. There is almost no RNG is sephirot, it's like following a well scripted dance. Some of the mechanics are extremely punishing though but I think the main thing people have trouble with is that those mechanics aren't as flashy as the most punishing mechanics in Thordan. I mean, in Thordan if the someone messes up at a really punishing mechanics you instantly know you're going to feel the pain, in sephirot you could have a player marked for power of magic sit to long in an ein sof and die. That doesn't sound so bad right? Until the tethered Da'at hits a might player and he's stacked on the very edge with all of the others for maximum uptime on the boss so they all die to splash damage, then no one is there to get towers, and all of a sudden, one guy moving too slowly turned the whole fight into a shit show

I found thordan easier due to being less team based(if 2-3 ppl die, they can be half carried in thordan), while on sepiroth you can't carry ppl due to the way mechanisms works... Also as for those saying thordans last phases can be chaos.. well.. once you memorize it like sepiroth you can do all mechanisms while dpsing (all about calming down, look whats going on and play at same time). actually its even easier than sepiroth as knockbacks interrupt you, while on thordan you have no intterupts at all and u got like 3seconds to avoid the gaze instead of 1second knockback.

Btw to some people here. p8 mechanisms don't come all at same time. you can dps until gaze starts(then avoid at 50% and avoid red floor. move oposite dir of chain a bit to break) then dps boss as soon as gaze ends. (then while ure dpsing ice or comet mark + yellow aoe will appear). after u finish ur spell go in between yellow in a place with no ppl and keep dpsing (ice wil lfall while ure dpsing) then go out of the ice to infront of boss and keep dpsing lol. this way theres near zero loss doing p8.