DRG should have a special quest called "how to use heavy thrust"

the past few days leveling drk and ast made me met so many drg decked in full ironworks gear and even eso gear that just do not use heavy thrust.
i explained it to them, some understand and now hopefully use it on their rotations, the rest forgot by the next pull...

drg is kinda at disadbatage here since nin damage boost is one click always on and mnk got one click and twin snakes is literally blinking on their bar begging to be pressed.

i was this DRG once. i didnt know the true power of HT until around 40. this was when you only get the buff from flank, now that its even easier, there's zero reason ht shouldnt be up at all time

Actually, its easier to forget NIN's "kiss" / MNK's "fists of x" or even tank stances, than HT.
Its not in their rotation, so people often forget to re-activate it after job switch etc.
How anyone can forget HT, when your entire rotation for quite some levels consists of HT-ID-ID-ID, beats me.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

the past few days leveling drk and ast made me met so many drg decked in full ironworks gear and even eso gear that just do not use heavy thrust.
i explained it to them, some understand and now hopefully use it on their rotations, the rest forgot by the next pull...

drg is kinda at disadbatage here since nin damage boost is one click always on and mnk got one click and twin snakes is literally blinking on their bar begging to be pressed.

i was this DRG once. i didnt know the true power of HT until around 40. this was when you only get the buff from flank, now that its even easier, there's zero reason ht shouldnt be up at all time

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Check their crossclasses. You'll be surprised at how many of them don't have pugilist unlocked, let alone leveled.

This is a true story:

I was in Brayflox normal while leveling my DRK - queued in with a friend and we encountered a Dragoon. Level 50, sync'd down. He didn't use Heavy Thrust. So, before the first boss, I stopped and asked him why he doesn't use it, genuinely curious.

His response has stuck with me ever since. He starts off by saying that its potency was low. Skipping it meant he could hit more Full Thrusts, so it was a loss to use Heavy Thrust. I told him that it boosts all your damage by 15%. There's literally no reason to NOT use it.

"I have other skills on my bar that suit me better. Don't tell me how to play my Job."

I have never again critiqued a Dragoon or Lancer for not using Heavy Thrust. I will tell anyone who asks for pointers all they want to know. But it's just not worth trying to help someone in df who is just looking to kill a dungeon for experience or tokens or whatever. Not everyone maximizes every run they play, and those that are trying to maximize while playing like shit are more often than not beyond help, sorry to say.

I can't say I understand why people DON'T maximize in dungeons, but I don't judge how someone else wants to spend time on the game they play for. At worst, it takes up an additional 2-5 minutes of my time. I always budget 1 hour + to dungeon runs, so it doesn't really make any difference to me.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Snip

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Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Check their crossclasses. You'll be surprised at how many of them don't have pugilist unlocked, let alone leveled.

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Here is the thing about this, there are no reasons why a new player would know that they would need to level Pugilist. It's a bit of a flaw with the cross class system anyhow, really the whole thing should be re-worked.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Here is the thing about this, there are no reasons why a new player would know that they would need to level Pugilist. It's a bit of a flaw with the cross class system anyhow, really the whole thing should be re-worked.

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I'm sorry, but no. If you're level 50+, you should know enough if you cared a bit about it.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I'm sorry, but no. If you're level 50+, you should know enough if you cared a bit about it.

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Oh yeah i mean sure, by level 50+ you should have worked it out by now through one way or another but my point is the game does not tell you to and it's not to ally obvious either. I don't think 'caring' really comes into it.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Oh yeah i mean sure, by level 50+ you should have worked it out by now through one way or another but my point is the game does not tell you to and it's not to ally obvious either. I don't think 'caring' really comes into it.

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The game could do a better work at that, but the point is they never cared about unlocking that, they're not gonna give a flying eff about their playstyle and how much of a drag they represent to the rest of your partners.

Edit: to add to dragoons not using heavy thrust, which happens far too often, I'm also tired of dark knights not using darkside ever. Some of them even tell you they run out of mp by doing that!

Well i can see your point but i think your generalising a bit too much

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Well i can see your point but i think your generalising a bit too much

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I'm not, sadly. I'm very nitpicky, so I always check everyone's crossclasses in the party before we start, and I'm never wrong; if someone lacks a crossclass, they always, a 100% of the time, end up failing. Why? Because they don't care, it's really easy, they don't care about you, or the objective of the party.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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People like you are what's wrong with this game. Stuck up elitist that think they can force people to do things their way. I swear you snobs kick people for the stupidest most trivial crap

Wow, that escalated quickly. To the usual point of classic duality, sadly. Everyone either elitist snob or stupid slacker, this is a nature of any cooperative play with a strangers.

Not really.. I don't worry about how the other members in the party are playing unless they're doing something that directly puts the success of the duty at risk.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

People like you are what's wrong with this game. Stuck up elitist that think they can force people to do things their way. I swear you snobs kick people for the stupidest most trivial crap

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Elitist my ass, people don't give an eff about my time, I don't give an eff about them. End of the story, learn how to use the term "elitist".

Do I care about the time it takes to complete a dungeon or a duty? No.
Do I care about the gear of the rest of the party? No, not as long as you don't see things like a healer wearing DEX (I've seen it), or a NIN using full STR (seen it as well), amongst a myriad of examples.
Do I like helping others as long as they put in the effort? Yes, most definitely.

And that is what people like you don't get, and spew your vitriolic self-righteousness, calling others elitist and several other terms without even knowing their meaning. Or how they should be used for that matter.

If you're not gonna put in the effort to get through things, do not expect me, or anyone else to carry your sorry ass and be fine with it.

You seem to have being a stuck up snob down to an art. Y'all treat this game like its a full time job.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

You seem to have being a stuck up snob down to an art. Y'all treat this game like its a full time job.

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No more questions.

But ridding themselves from substantial % of their damage, people directly do that, because prolonged fights burden party resources and sometimes party will fail DPS checks because of it. I know i'm playing the devil's advocate here, but one man's good player is another man's elitist. And OP wasn't talking some obscure shenanigans, but base class mechanics.

Yesterday, i got into EX roulette with a SMN player in eso set, who bringed titan-egi and VERY scarcely used DOTs. After two pulls i left. Does it make me an elitist or just someone who don't want to spend next hour dragging some slacker along?

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Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

But ridding themselves from substantial % of their damage, people directly do that, because prolonged fights burden party resources and sometimes party will fail DPS checks because of it. I know i'm playing the devil's advocate here, but one man's good player is another man's elitist. And OP isn't talking some obscure shenanigans, but base class mechanics.

Yesterday, i got into EX roulette with a SMN player in eso set, who bringed titan-egi and VERY scarcely used DOTs. After two pulls i left. Does it make me an elitist or just someone who don't want to spend next hour dragging some slacker along?

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You did good by leaving, I do that as well and get my face penalty'd. But I don't care, I can do something else for that half an hour instead of carrying someone else who's gonna insult you hard after you've politely asked them to do something that they should already be doing in the first place, such as, in this case, using heavy thrust.

If it helps, I'm against parsers. So much for an elitist, I guess?

It's not wrong to remind them HT raises the damage as long as it's done respectfully and yes that player sounded like they were disrespectful in their response. What is wrong is kicking people just because they're not using a skill you feel they should use. That's what I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by MahoSenshi

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It's SMN like that that I usually try assisting... Doesn't help when they don't take it. TBH, I would've either left or consulted with the other players on what to do with him as well. When you're not using over half of your resources to deal damage and you're actively hurting the tank's area(Titan-egi is mainly for solo instance, tanks can do their job better but it's a pain when the Titan steals aggro), you become a massive burden on the rest of the team. Frankly, I wouldn't have been surprised if he was committing the other sin for SMN, having the Titan on Sic instead of Obey

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's not wrong to remind them HT raises the damage as long as it's done respectfully and yes that player sounded like they were disrespectful in their response. What is wrong is kicking people just because they're not using a skill you feel they should use. That's what I take issue with.

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No one said no one else should kick them for not using a certain skill. You just made that up. However, they should be kicked when they're being a burden and excuse themselves with things like "I have other skills on my bar that suit me better. Don't tell me how to play my Job.". Basic rotations are extremely easy to perform, no one here is asking for a flawless rotation in a dungeon; they might still be getting used to it, but that? There's an abyss between that and still getting used to the job at lv60.

Honestly, I would just kick em. If you refuse to play your job right, then waste your time. Not mine. Tanks have to tank and mitigate properly, healers gotta make sure to keep the party (mostly the tank) alive and topped off, and dps gotta make sure their buffs and rotation are on point to maximize their damage or else the battle gets dragged out and the heals/tank waste more of their energy. That said, if you refuse to do your job right to its full potential, then go waste your time elsewhere and not on me lol.

Sadly even using it some drgs fail, being out dpsed by an under geared min level entry pld in brayflox nm...while he's capped >.>

Well all dps fail :3 I have to say running a parser has certainly opened my eyes :o

Well PS4 players don't have the luxury of cheating. We have to do everything the old fashion way. We don't get to have computers play for us

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I'm sorry, but no. If you're level 50+, you should know enough if you cared a bit about it.

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Well, I know a NIN who FATE farmed. Never did a Dungeon until he was like 53 or 54 (I forget). He joined us for our Sohm Al run, his first dungeon as NIN since his ROG was level 1. He was NOT aware that he could use Trick Attack without "Hide". He thought Suiton gave him Water Damage to his attacks.

Sadly, as a NIN main, I attempted to give him a bit of feedback, but he said he didn't need it because he only wanted Level 60 as he has no intentions on playing the job seriously.

I dislike people like this, because if they main, say, DRG, and only got BRD to Lv60 "just because", then they bring their BRD into Sephirot Ex, I'm annoyed.

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Sadly even using it some drgs fail, being out dpsed by an under geared min level entry pld in brayflox nm...while he's capped >.>

Well all dps fail :3 I have to say running a parser has certainly opened my eyes :o

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I don't take parses serious. I was doing A1S. Two people were parsing. One had me at 1312. The other had me at 1000-something. Both parsers were on Faust on one run.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

It's not wrong to remind them HT raises the damage as long as it's done respectfully and yes that player sounded like they were disrespectful in their response. What is wrong is kicking people just because they're not using a skill you feel they should use. That's what I take issue with.

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This isn't the context of why they're being kicked though. They're being a burden on their party intentionally by not using skills that are rather essential to their role (in the case of a DRG, using HT to increase their dps, because hell what else are they in your party for if they aren't doing dps?). Same with that SMN example where they wer using titan egi, except that's even more of a detriment to the party because it steals tank aggro and prevents them (as well as the healer and melee dps) from performing their role.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

Well PS4 players don't have the luxury of cheating. We have to do everything the old fashion way. We don't get to have computers play for us

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Reading tool tips and performing skills that are inherent to your job isn't exclusive to PC, nor is it cheating. Actually what is this quote even in context of? If it's parsing, that's not even the issue at hand.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Well, I know a NIN who FATE farmed. Never did a Dungeon until he was like 53 or 54 (I forget). He joined us for our Sohm Al run, his first dungeon as NIN since his ROG was level 1. He was NOT aware that he could use Trick Attack without "Hide". He thought Suiton gave him Water Damage to his attacks.

Sadly, as a NIN main, I attempted to give him a bit of feedback, but he said he didn't need it because he only wanted Level 60 as he has no intentions on playing the job seriously.

I dislike people like this, because if they main, say, DRG, and only got BRD to Lv60 "just because", then they bring their BRD into Sephirot Ex, I'm annoyed.

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Tell that to people like Warghoul570, who sees us as elitists.

I never said offering advise made you an elitist. It's when it's said in a snobby way which I've seen in the past or kicking someone for not playing to your standards that does. Personally I don't mind if someone sees a way I can tweak what I'm doing and let's me know as long as it's done respectfully. I would never use the classes I'm working on" just because" on big raids. I play mainly as a Dragoon btw.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

I never said offering advise made you an elitist. It's when it's said in a snobby way which I've seen in the past or kicking someone for not playing to your standards that does. Personally I don't mind if someone sees a way I can tweak what I'm doing and let's me know as long as it's done respectfully.

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And you're perfectly fine with people that sandbag themselves to the detriment of your party? Because your reply is to a quote in response to that.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

....

"I have other skills on my bar that suit me better. Don't tell me how to play my Job."

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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I personally get frustrated when people choose not to put effort into playing their class in a party setting, espesically if it is out of laziness because at that point, you're not giving any shites to the other 3-7 people's times.

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

What is wrong is kicking people just because they're not using a skill you feel they should use. That's what I take issue with.

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I strongly disagree. I feel that the community needs to have some sort of accountability for being woefully trash at your Job. I don't mean "doing low dps because of sub-optimal cooldown/rotations" - I mean "ignoring the base mechanics of your Job." A Summoner using no DoT spells, a Dragoon ignoring Heavy Thrust, a Ninja using 0 Ninjutsu - these are all scenarios I have encountered in duty finder dungeon runs at level 60.

At the same time, I have also encountered tanks who mass pull and pop not a single cooldown and then bitch me out as the healer for not keeping them alive. I've also encountered a healer who did literally 0 dps and forced me to pull one group at a time with cooldowns because they couldn't keep me up, despite being overgeared.

So, yeah. I do not believe it is wrong to kick a player who is drastically under-performing. I would never kick someone on the basis of a parse number, since that's bull. I WOULD, however, like to feel that I could kick a Black Mage who doesn't use Enochian at 60 without having people like you reporting my ass for "elitism" when I just want people to at least play their job correctly, whether or not that means they're gonna pull 1300-1400 dps.

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Originally Posted by whythehate

Sadly even using it some drgs fail, being out dpsed by an under geared min level entry pld in brayflox nm...while he's capped >.>

Well all dps fail :3 I have to say running a parser has certainly opened my eyes :o

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I honestly have no problem with players who are still learning and struggling to figure out how things work. I've offered advice to people in df before and received positive replies. What really annoys me is when I see someone ignoring the base mechanics of their class and then, when I offer friendly advice, I'm told that they know what they're doing. I'm not [insert class here], despite having it at 60.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I personally get frustrated when people choose not to put effort into playing their class in a party setting, espesically if it is out of laziness because at that point, you're not giving any shites to the other 3-7 people's times.

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I'm not super bothered by the fact of time. Dungeons in general are a waste of time - they take 20+ minutes to complete in DF, and I often will budget myself 40+ minutes to clear it (including queue time). If someone is a little slow on dps, I don't care. I play my Job to the best of my ability (and usually try and bring a friend with me to make sure half the party is competent, at least) and so it doesn't really bother me if it goes a little slow.

I mostly only get pissy and upset if I see - for example - 0 uses of Goring Blade or Royal Authority out of my Paladin. Or this other time that I had a Warrior who used Maim exactly once on each boss and never anywhere else. Or a White Mage who runs in circles casting the odd heal spell during trash pulls without ever even dropping an Assize or swift A3.

This is people ignoring the base mechanics of their Job, and I don't feel it's right that the game is designed in such a way that we are encouraged not to tell them to get better, because we might be reported for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Neither of these things should be an issue. The Dragoon rotation is static and unchanging on every boss in every dungeon in the game, and BotD is a 60s cooldown - you can use it for every trash pull and have it up for the boss so long as you don't re-pop it at the end of the pull. The only exception is when you have a stellar partner dps, OP healer dps, and a DRK/WAR doing good dps to kill a trash pack in less than 60s - a feat that's rarely ever accomplished in DF.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Kick them, all of them. Let's raise the bar, I'm sick of this behaviour and the people that get behind it. This isn't about time spent, this is about how frustrating it is altogether. These people then get carried through content, and we suffer their presence in farming parties.

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Preach it! My wife and me (usually playing tank+healer or healer+DPS in our daily ex-roulettes) are seriously sick and tired of carrying braindead/lazy DPS players every single goddamn day. We either make use of our damned 4 hour vote dismissals whenever possible or put in as much effort as the DPS are. i.e. i210+ DRG not using heavy thrust, BotD or any kind of AoE and autoattacking on bosses? I do an unchained+berserk rotation on bosses and go make lunch/dinner, while she uses an AFK healing macro.

Seriously, everyone. Stop carrying people like this through dungeons. Kick them. Tell them to stop slacking/afk, or just stop putting in any effort yourself when you see shit like that.

I also like the "argument" many idiots on this forum like to bring up how low/bad dps "only makes a dungeon take 2-3 minutes longer". Wrong. Almost every dungeon run we do, we both are the first and second DPS(as healer and nerfed tank).

Let's say the average lazy/slacker/terrible DPS player has 600 DPS on single target. Both of us are generally around 900-1000 on bossfights. A slacker/bad tank puts out like 300 DPS. A bad healer puts out 0 DPS. This already makes bossfights take almost 3 times as long as normally. 20 minute runs become 40-50 minute slog-fests, believe it or not, if you get unlucky and don't decide to carry the rest of the team.

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

You never know if it's out of laziness. In the above case it is but it won't always be. For example I try to keep up on HT but sometimes I get focused on the fight itself and overlook the timer. I also choose to try to hold onto BotD until boss battles because I feel it's more important to have the for the start of the fight then having to wait for the cooldown timer because I wasted it on a trash mob

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Your example is entirely different from not using HT at all, and the best reason you can come up with is "I choose not to", which can be out of laziness, spite, or preference, al o f which still comes to the detriment of the party if you aren't performing the role that you're in the party for. Ignorance I can excuse, willful ignorance is a different story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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Again, the examples that you're giving doesn't match up the context and perspective of what we're talking about. In our case, we're referring to players who don't touch BotD (or HT) at all for the entire course of a dungeon. I'm not going to kick people or get pissy over them dropping enochian or not keeping full uptime on BotD, but I'm going to take offense if you expect me to carry your dps because you can't be bothered to maintain HT or use any of oyur post-50 skills (which often equates to you doing less than a tank in tank stance)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I'm not super bothered by the fact of time. Dungeons in general are a waste of time - they take 20+ minutes to complete in DF, and I often will budget myself 40+ minutes to clear it (including queue time). If someone is a little slow on dps, I don't care. I play my Job to the best of my ability (and usually try and bring a friend with me to make sure half the party is competent, at least) and so it doesn't really bother me if it goes a little slow.

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It's less about the time and more on the principle behind it. No one likes it when someone is slacking off when it comes to a collaboration or project, and party play in an MMO is no different. Doubly the case when it goes hand in hand (and it often does) with your below statement.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I mostly only get pissy and upset if I see - for example - 0 uses of Goring Blade or Royal Authority out of my Paladin. Or this other time that I had a Warrior who used Maim exactly once on each boss and never anywhere else. Or a White Mage who runs in circles casting the odd heal spell during trash pulls without ever even dropping an Assize or swift A3.

This is people ignoring the base mechanics of their Job, and I don't feel it's right that the game is designed in such a way that we are encouraged not to tell them to get better, because we might be reported for harassment..

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That was a response to the normal person that was talking to me mr. Snob. Bad attitude btw

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

I never said offering advise made you an elitist. It's when it's said in a snobby way which I've seen in the past or kicking someone for not playing to your standards that does. Personally I don't mind if someone sees a way I can tweak what I'm doing and let's me know as long as it's done respectfully. I would never use the classes I'm working on" just because" on big raids. I play mainly as a Dragoon btw.

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It's not a matter of standards. It's a matter of these people not even performing the most basic job mechanics. Even when I'm leveling a class I'm playing "just because" (i.e. because I want all jobs at 60) I make sure I know the basic rotation so I can at least function semi-effectively in dungeons should I choose to venture there. Don't get me wrong, I drop Enochian and BotD like they're going out of style, but hey I'm at least trying. That's worlds of difference from not even using HT. I don't get people that want to go on a class they have no idea how to play, basically fall over themselves the entire dungeon and scream at anyone that tries to give advice. The worst part is, they're forcibly dragging three other people down with them. It's disrespectful of the party's time and I think people that refuse to perform basic job mechanics should be kicked.

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

Well PS4 players don't have the luxury of cheating. We have to do everything the old fashion way. We don't get to have computers play for us

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What are you even talking about here? I'm confused because you didn't quote anything for context. If you think parsers "play the game for you" you're sadly mistaken as to what their actual function is. In any case, that isn't even the subject of the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

That was a response to the normal person that was talking to me mr. Snob. Bad attitude btw

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I see we have someone who doesnt actually read the responses here.

They are NOT saying kick someone for not using HT. They are saying kick them when they are complete asshats in response and absolutely refuse to use BASIC MECHANICS of their job

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warghoul570

The problem has been, since I only really use DF, that if I use BotD on a trash mob towards the end of a section it expire and is still cooling down from the time between the kill of that mob and party ready and engaging boss. I would end up with around 30sec left before I can use it again

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The problem is that you called me, and by extension, everyone who thinks alike, the problem of this game. And no, we are not. By doing this, you're excusing them and encouraging them to keep doing, or not doing, whatever they are or they aren't doing. Because of these people is why we can't have a somewhat deep game and piss easy dungeons at their release. They level by spamming FATEs? That's on them, that's no excuse to me or to anyone else in the party. They get carried so they get into farming parties? Likewise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zari

I see we have someone who doesnt actually read the responses here.

They are NOT saying kick someone for not using HT. They are saying kick them when they are complete asshats in response and absolutely refuse to use BASIC MECHANICS of their job

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He doesn't want to understand this on purpose.