The chicken or the egg?
IMO, i always thought the mother crystal was just there, floating around in the aetherial sea. And that the twelve were an anomaly, where the massive amounts of aether floating about somehow manifested itself into consciousness.
im probably wrong, but what does everyone else think?
what came first..
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03-13-2016, 05:18 AMnexas506what came first..
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03-13-2016, 05:21 AMAnonymoose
What came first between The Crystal and the Twelve?
I'd say the Crystal. Final Fantasy has a long history of, "At first, there was only the Crystal, and it brought forth mighty gods. But then all that went to hell, so mortals." XIV seems to have just taken the extra step back, to the wibbly wobbly pre-timey wimey stuff where Light and Darkness were mingled in promordial Chaos, with the door currently wide open for a previous cosmological order. -
03-13-2016, 05:32 AMDarkstride
SPOILER.....
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Well, in 3.2 Hydaelyn does tell us that "Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one". And she continues on about how the Dark coveted power so she sealed it away....
It seems to me as though the crystal, Hydaelyn and Zodiark existed before there was anything else. -
03-13-2016, 06:02 AMWyrahFhurrst
I do wonder about Ramuh's statement on Light and Darkness, about how there was no light and darkness before man. Could he be wrong? Or could it be that his viewpoint is incorrect, and that man's birth was a consequence of the division of light and dark from their primordial unity?
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03-13-2016, 06:16 AMCiliaHe didn't make a statement, Ramuh was simply musing on the origin of Dark, questioning if it came into being with the birth of Man.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
From what we can tell and what information we've been given, this isn't true. According to Hydaelyn Light and Dark existed before any sapient race (or hell, even the planet we live on), so Ramuh's guess is wrong. Probably. That said, both Ramuh and Kan-E-Senna have questioned whether or not Dark is an inseparable part of Man's existence (with Ramuh's above musing on its origin, and Kan-E stating that the Dark within us attracts the Dark without).
That said, Man coming into existence as a byproduct of Light and Dark separating is possible. Very possible. But so are many things. -
03-13-2016, 06:17 AMRawrz
The egg. Laid by something other than a chicken. ~NDT
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03-13-2016, 06:18 AMAnonymooseRamuh is a really weird case. Everything about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
First off, he's not wrong that - before man - Light and Dark were as one. Hydaelyn confirmed this. We didn't really even doubt it so much as wonder how he could know given that he wasn't around; there's zero hints to him being an Elder Primal. Apparently, the Sylphs can just imagine an all-knowing god based on the stories of the Wise Man of the Wood, and he actually does know quite a bit. Or, perhaps, the thing that answers the Sylphs beacon is that old, but wasn't worshipped for that long. Hells if I know. The thing that caused doubt for me was that he seemed to (like Elidibus) be saying that balance was important. However, after reviewing it several times, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's clearly championing harmony in the Light by casting out the chaotic influences of Darkness.
Next you've got his identity - based on the Wise Man of the Wood, and yet the thematic connections between Ramuh and the Twelve are undeniable (though, of course, Eorzeans could just be wrong in connecting them thematically). Look at the Astrologian card for The Spire. Byregot's tower is topped by with the exact same motif as that which sits upon Ramuh's staff, and a bearded old man bearing a striking resemblance to Ramuh sits below the symbol of the Destroyer. And that's to say nothing of how the story very clearly matches how Dalamud would charge the Crystal Tower.
Ramuh seems to have been right to correlate the events. Hydaelyn cast out Zodiark and created Life seemingly around the same time. He's also not wrong that man is easily corruptible and there is always danger that the Darkness will influence or even overtake them. All the Warrior of Light did was prove that there's hope for man to deny it. But if, as it appears, he was trying to imply a causal connection (Light and Dark were given form when man was born, and thus because man was born), that seems less likely. -
03-13-2016, 07:27 AMWyrahFhurrst
Moose, getting right into the meat of my question. While it doesn't answer much of it, you do bring up all of the points I was asking about. Hopefully something concrete does come up sooner or later on the matter.
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03-13-2016, 02:09 PMCyrilLucifer
Hmm, my hypothesis is similar to everyone else's. Light and Dark were once one as we know, so there was no distinction between "Light" and "Dark" at the initial state of the universe. When one became two, that is when the potential for Light and Dark to exist began. I don't think we have enough information to judge whether or night Light and Dark came into existence with life, or simply once the split occurred.
If you want to go further than that, you can ponder if there was ever truly a distinction between Hydaelyn and Zodiark before this, but that's kinda cracky. Still fun to consider, though.
From there, who knows?
We can guess that separation of Zodiark and Hydaelyn was what allowed life to come into being and thus allowed for creation. But then you have to ask, why didn't - or couldn't - life exist before this? Could it have?
There's just so much to the story we don't know. Hydaelyn really didn't tell us much at all. -
03-13-2016, 03:57 PMMorningstar1337I'd imagine it would be similar to the Altana/Promanthia thing, just on a larger scale. The former using the latter to create all life.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Actually i just thought up a theory for this. Aether was contained in a large crystal. That crystal split into Hydealyn and Zodiark and contained aether broke free as a result. Would explain why aether became crystals and how the use of aether (epeicly for summoning) would drain Hydealyn -
03-13-2016, 06:47 PMCyrilLucifer
Something similar to XI's creation mythos in that somehow Zodiark was used in the creation of life is definitely my hypothesis (or one of them), I just wanted to keep my XI theorizing out of it and went more factual.
As it seems now, Hydaelyn has sole dominion over "the Source," which is what Zodiark wishes to re-establish contact with - or so we're told. But why would Hydaelyn's control over the source allow for the creation of life in and of itself? Either we don't know enough about this "Source" or there's something else to the story we don't understand yet. I'm going to eat my non-existent hat if it's not the latter. -
03-17-2016, 08:47 AMPowe
O.O OMG I think I understand it, Lightning( not the spell the amazing character)is the source( I'm being dead serious) remember when in ff Lightning returns at the end when basically during her final fight the new world and current universe was destroyed in the wake of her battle against the creator of her universe by being sucked in a black hole maybe this new world became eorza that would explain why some ff13 enemies are in the allagan ruins or hydalyn is Lightning. Thank you to listening to a FF13 addict.
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03-17-2016, 09:35 AMFrederick22ff13 has nothing to do with 14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powe
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03-19-2016, 10:54 AMPowebut why are the pulse enemies here then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
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03-19-2016, 01:02 PMHinoto-no-Ryuji
Shout-outs. XIV is full of them. Even if those Pulse enemies were XIII originals and not classic FF monsters already, XIV would be using them as a reference, not a hint at some greater link between the two games.
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03-19-2016, 01:24 PMAnonymoose
Only because Enkidoh appears to be stuck in traffic, I'll take this one.
The "Pulse" enemies are simply re-used assets; nothing more, nothing less. XIV needed all the help it could get to turn around and re-release as fast as possible, and thus it was given the go-ahead to start using... uhh... homages... to past creature designs. While generally not a thing that happens, it gave XIV a much-needed reprieve, allowing them to fall into a pattern of actually cranking out a fairly impressive amount of new, original designs for Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida
Sometimes, that re-used asset feels like it's celebrating a great creature design from the past. Who didn't have a soul-crushing moment of panic when the stoneshell crabs showed up? You said you never wanted to see another one after the thousands upon thousands you killed in Vana'diel - level after level after level. But you know you love your smallshell minion. Crawlers, damselflies, magic dolls and pots... They all invoke and celebrate the past. It was at least well-enough received that SE will now make entirely new enemies that are 3D versions of classic sprite designs. Rehashing isn't always bad.
But, sometimes, yes, it did feel like a tacked-on, shoe-horned bid for time. We can call a fig a fig; it is what it is. It may be a comparatively shorter list, but the "Pulse" enemies are arguably pretty high up on it, aren't they? Pretty low-tech for almighty Allag, right? The Ragnarok starships seem generations ahead of their own defenses. What can you do? Make up some headcanon excuses and hold 'em close!
Those are just the ... uh ... internal mechanisms! 5,000 years in space have not been kind! You should have seen them when they rolled off the assembly line; they could've taken down a Phantom Ray!
Thoes are... uh... early generation models! Sure, they got fancier in later years, but if it ain't broke don't fix it. You should see this refrigerator my grandad has - from the '50s. Does it have an ice dispenser in the door? No. Does it use more electricity than the entire neighborhood's yearly Christmas Village light show? Sure. But it still works like the day it was made!
Those were... uh... built by owlbears! ...