As said in a different thread, making GLD block normally wont fix the gladiators current usefulness. Once, Storm's Path was cross-classable, and it was a good AOE enmity generating damage attack that classes that could tank could use. Now that it is just MRD, something has to be done with Gladiator. While MRD can spend 1500 TP to do extreme damage and higher enmity in aoe, a gladiator has about nothing that can counter that or even come close. I suggest either Making Riot Blade AOE And slightly more enmity generated (and possibly increased damage potency since it depletes TP and pacifies), or adding slightly more potency and increased enmity to Circle Slash, or both would be better since Riot Blade Depletes all TP and pacifies. Riot Blade can definitely use the boost because it takes all TP and prevents use of any other weapon skill for 15 seconds. The point wouldn't be to do more damage than MRD in AOE, it would be to hold ENMITY in AOE against other peoples' AOE damage or heals. Even a wide-volley can take enmity away from a Gladiator against multiple targets. ALSO.... I don't think it has been considered at all, but War Drums Is a pretty useless skill for 5 ac and 40s Recast. It too can not generate enough enmity to keep hate off of a healer or aoe damager. Suggest its recast be reduced to 20s and slight increase in enmity, or greatly increase its enmity generation. Another silly skill, Cadence, Should Increase Enmity generation for not one attack, but for a set duration.
Please most any other suggestions you have.
Gladiator boosting suggestions
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10-23-2011, 12:48 AMReikaGladiator boosting suggestions
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10-23-2011, 01:22 AMKRose
I think in general I'd like to see more of GLA's skills have an increased enmity modifier like Phalanx. I don't know that Riot Blade needs to suddenly be AoE, but it'd be nice if the damage on it was higher since it pacifies you.
I think Circle Blade could definitely use a potency/enmity buff.
I think War Drum probably loses a lot of it's effectiveness at 50 (I'm only 37 on GLA) with the amount of damage the others are doing. It'd be nice to see it just have higher enmity overall even if they kept the cooldown the same. It would be nice to see that get lowered as well though.
Cadence works for like 20 seconds right assuming you don't execute a weaponskill in that time. Rather than it just working for your next attack it'd be pretty cool if they had it work for the entire duration. Then you could theoretically spike your hate right off the bat by using it in conjunction with Warmonger/WarDrum, Circle Blade II and stuff. GLA seems fine 1 vs 1 (from what I've seen by playing on my PGL and ARC so far) but in the strongholds it was a mess. I've actually been with a GLA that did really well at the Ixali stronghold, but there wasn't a MRD in the party. -
10-23-2011, 01:28 AMPhysic
ehhhh too based around emnity calculations, i would prefer more mechanic based skills, As far as AOE, i think its ok if glad is second in AOE heat to mrd, but they should be 1st in single target hate.
Another possibility is increase their dmg options, or increase the utility of block skills,
Other possibilities, include buffs for the party that also increase enimity, A gld can be worthwhile if he gives everyone in front of him a defensive or offensive buff
increase the dmg of phalanx, or add effects, like DOT Defense down, or attack down.
ambitdexterity needs to make the block rate extremely high or last longer.
Another thing is monster distribution, they need to make it where glads increase in defense is worthwhile, they should have some hard hitting monsters, that a glad can maybe get hate on, but probably wouldnt want to, whereas the gld might love it.
Another possibility is make gld more technically superior, as in by responding to certain cues, increases its potential dramatically, the tools are there with on block manuevers, but the effects arent noticeable enough. MRD is a master at the brawl, but a gladiator should be excellent at a thinking mans technical fight. Give glad some more DMG based on how well they are tanking.
just some rough ideas, the execution is up to them. -
10-23-2011, 01:28 AMReikaI think Riot Blade does need to AOE. With all tp cost and pacification, a GLD couldn't out-damage a MRD's Storm's path anyways. As MRD in a stronghold, I can gather up a bunch of enemies, get them in front of me, and do 1 of 2 of my frontal-cone basic attacks and have 3000tp right off the bat. then I can do Storm's path right after which takes half of that. Theres no pacification for that and it is a 10s reuse. wait 10s, do it again, then do the other frontal-cone basic attack and be back at 3000tp. A MRD can get off 3 or so Storm's Path WS before a gld can even get the TP to get off 1 Riot Blade in a multi-enemy situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by KRose
And Cadence works the same way as Raging Strike or Ferocity. After your next Skill that targets the enemy (doesn't work with heals) it goes away, but doesn't effect auto attacks. -
10-23-2011, 01:32 AMReikaIt has to be based around enmity calculations, since GLD isn't suspost to have extreme damage, but higher damage mitigation. If the GLD Weapon skills start doing too much damage, then there wouldn't be a use for MRD, so instead, increase the enmity they generate. It has to be done without making the other class useless, which the dev's aren't doing too well at right now...*COUGHARCHERVSLANCER*Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
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10-26-2011, 06:05 AMFiosha_Maureiba
I think that Spinstroke should get a larger damage bonus when attacking the enemy not engaged with the Gladiator. The reason being is that a Gladiator that is not getting enmity does not get to take advantage of their higher HP, defense, and shield. So a Spinstroke dealing more damage could serve as a way for Gladiators to do extra damage and get some of that enmity back.
And maybe have Cover be able to function as long as we're in proximity of the ally. Enemies love to dance around these days and it can be quite difficult to tell if Cover is functioning when you're standing on top of your ally and enemy at the same time. -
10-26-2011, 06:16 AMRentahamster
Glad needs to be able to parry and block at the same time, for one thing.
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10-27-2011, 12:33 AMFiosha_Maureiba
Kind of following up on the OP's post.
War Drum
1) Reduce action point cost to 3.
2) Reduce cooldown.
3) Increased enmity generation, ideally to match an unbuffed AOE worth of damage.
4) Generate TP for each target affected by War Drum.
Provoke II
1) Make Gladiator exclusive.
2) Significantly boost enmity generation, ideally to where people would feel comfortable starting the battle at the same time instead of a gladiator getting a head start. -
10-27-2011, 06:18 PMBrannigan
Just throwing out ideas to procrastinate. I think 1.20 and/or Paladin will fix most of Gladiator's problems, but it's fun to play pretend:
One thing I think will be important for the future is being able to go from 0 hate to top of the list instantly. This lets you switch tanks easily or recover hate after a mid-battle rez (after all, we do have chainspell and rebirth in this game). They could make Spinstroke 2 sword-only, give it a longer recast, and have it put you at the top of the hate list.
Rage of Halone and Riot Blade both could use some changes. Removing the pacification from Riot Blade would be great. I'm not sure what they could do with Halone - increasing the damage bonus from missing HP would help, but I think it'd still be lackluster at best. Maybe attaching some kind of group buff or an Obsess-like effect to it (deal more damage to that target temporarily but deal less to everything else) would help.
Cover could use some extra functionality.
A LS mate of mine had some ideas for making Obsess function similarly to Marauder's Steadfast Stance in that it'd change up the properties of your WSes, that'd be cool.
War Drum should be like 0 AP because really, come on. -
10-30-2011, 11:52 PMTetsaru
Well, here's my thoughts:
The way that enmity is set up now, all it takes is a large spike in damage or curing in order to yank hate right off a gladiator tank. Here's the problem:
All the other Disciples of War - Pugilist, Lancer, Archer, and Marauder (especially Marauder) - all generally do more damage than Gladiator.
Disciples of Magic - Conjurer and Thaumaturge - can both do sudden bursts of damage with their spells, as well as cure for large amounts of health, especially now that Cure spells can crit now (at least, according to a friend of mine who normally uses Cure III to heal around 800-900 and then got a crit heal for around 1200).
In order for a Gladiator to even come close to holding hate, they have to level up many other jobs to learn moves and traits, such as War Drum, Taunt, Intimidation, etc., which is really stupid, in my opinion. I can pop Provoke II, Taunt, Disorient, War Drum, Heavy Slash, Heavy Stab, AND Riot Blade while wearing my Sentinel's Sabatons and having Intimidation set that give +Enmity and STILL sometimes cannot get hate over other people who are actually doing their jobs like they're supposed to. I also use Phalanx II from time to time, but it becomes useless if the enemy's not focused on me, or if I don't get any blocks, which has also become a problem after the last patch. I've even gone so far recently as to make a Dated Maddening Dagger (which gives +25 Enmity now, by the way) and Maddening Potions to try and see if I can hold hate easier with it than with my Ul'Dahn Scimitar or Cobalt Winglet, but I have yet to test them.
That said, here's what I would like to see happen in the future:
1 - Give Gladiator an exclusive move similar to Provoke/Taunt/War Drum/Disorient (or adjust the existing moves) that IMMEDIATELY forces the enemy's hate towards you for a set amount of time, regardless of enmity. All the HP, defense, vitality, and moves like Sentinel/Rampart etc. a Gladiator has are completely useless if you can't get the enemy to focus on you instead of everyone else.
2 - Allow Gladiators to block AND parry to lessen or negate damage. If other DoW's can parry and DoM's can use shields to block OR use two-handed weapons to parry, then GLA should be able to do both as a tanking job.
3 - Adjust existing enmity algorithms so that Gladiators can tank more easily, other damage-dealers can keep doing their job without fear of pulling hate, and healers can use that desperately needed Curaga II to save everyone without getting KO'd immediately afterwards. I suspect this is already being worked on, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
4 - Get rid of Riot Blade's Pacification effect and Rage of Halone's casting time. There's no need for them when other moves like Storm's Path can do a LOT more damage.
5 - Intimidation needs to be a Gladiator or Sentinel trait, not a Marauder trait. Marauders should be hitting things with their axes for tons of damage, not tanking. Same could be said for a lot of other moves, like Speed Surge, Taunt, Decoy, etc. that would be PERFECT for a tank, but are instead wasted on other jobs that don't really need them as much. I don't mind playing as other jobs everyone once in a while, but I shouldn't have to level all the other combat jobs to 40+ just to be a decent tank. Put some of this stuff on Gladiator, or even better - Sentinel, since it doesn't have that many moves anyway.
6 - Add more gear and/or materia that improves enmity, parrying, and block rates. I'd love to see something like a Blood Sword (all auto-attacks you perform heal you for the same amount) or some armor set other than the Sentinel gear that gives as much enmity as the Maddening Dagger, for instance. -
10-31-2011, 12:48 AMPhysicyou are very wrong about other jobs not needing them much,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetsaru
taunt,
pugilist skill. pugilist has half their skills dedicated to evasion tanking, even DD skills, Simian thrash, jarring strike, haymaker all require you to evade. feather foot boosts evasion (near useless if you never have hate) and light strike boosts evasion and defense for 10 seconds. Without taunt none of this makes sense. Also, pugilist has the shortest range, so a long range manuever to get an enemies attention is a strong part of their ability set.
Speed surge is a DD and support ability in every respect dunno why thats on your list
Decoy? is the perfect defensive move for a ranger, it is a long range shadow. the amount of times a glad would need that are few, and far between
Marauder needs hate, its part of their build, marauder is good DD on multiple monsters, but it can only do that if the monsters are in one space, moving monsters are outside aoe cone, and moving a lot lowers its options for AoE, hence it needs to gather enemies, and keep their attention. Its also the same armor rating as glad.
Thing people should realize, is glad has a specialty for tank, but its not the only class that is meant to take advantage of having hate, also, each class SHOULD imo have access to a variety of defensive moves, if not, then the classes cant do anything on their own without leveling every other class.
So essentially its level every other class to be able to anything on your own.
Or level some classes to do a highly specialized role
i think leaning toward the second makes more sense.
Now i think glad needs some improvements, but within its own move set, not by weakening others and making them useless and 1 dimensional classes.
they need to give glad some more enmity skills, OR increase its dmg potential/healing potential. The current enmity list is based primarily on damage and cures for hate, skills are pretty low on the list. In this type of system, a glad doesnt have too many tools for keeping hate seeing as how its max damage/heal is pretty low.
It also needs more of its control over blocking back, at the very least a feathefoot/parry like skill giving one high chance of block in a short time frame, maybe similar to featherfoot mp boost where after a sucessful block enmity up
Also back when they were talking about a clear enmity meter, people paniced and complained, but it would be a lot more gratifying using enmity skills if it told you some quanifiable numbers. I can see a glad getting hyped using a skills and seeing +1000 anger! but seeing no quantifiable results doesnt encourage as much as being able to see an effect, thats one of the reasons people like DD, its a direct gratification, you see the hp bar go down, and some big numbers.
I think seeing those enmity numbers, or something similar would make a lot more people enjoy tanking -
10-31-2011, 01:36 AMTetsaruPug still does more damage with its weapon skills than Glad to hold hate (as I mentioned, EVERY job has a way of doing more damage than Glad), plus there's always throwing weapons, which no one ever uses. But I agree, it does help for the evasion aspects you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Because it gives you HP when you hit the enemy, like the old Blood Swords in the old FF games. I could say the same for Marauder's Bloodbath. A tank's gotta keep his HP up while he's holding hate, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Shadows were why Ninjas could often out-tank Paladins in FF11. Granted, I only played FF11 for a few months, but I still find that absurd. Ninjas are all about speed and trickery, not being able to bear the full brunt of an attack. Giving them a move where they can take the hit and it not do anything to them... that sounds exactly what a REAL tank needs in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
If you're soloing, then this isn't a problem - just like the evasion-based combat you mentioned with Pugilist. If you're partying, a good tank should be able to keep all the monsters in one place regardless and focused on him. Granted, Marauder's probably the closest thing to Gladiator in terms of tanking and perhaps in survivability, but then again, Marauder seems to have gotten a lot stronger overall with this patch, from what I've seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
Well apparently Gladiator still has to do that anyway to be viable in parties...Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
I just think that the "highly specialized role" should already be built into the class without having to level everything else, that's all. It's just a big pain when someone says "I want to be a tank!" and then another player says, "Ok, but you have to level EVERY JOB IN THE GAME in order to do that." To me, that takes the "role" out of a Role-Playing Game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
I like the idea of putting enmity into a quantitative form so that you can see it easier. At least that way (with the current system), you could see exactly how much you're staying ahead or falling behind in terms of holding hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
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10-31-2011, 02:01 AMPhysicQuote:
Originally Posted by Tetsaru
theres a similar thread where i said what im a bout to say, (maybe to you im not sure) but gladiators tank specialty is supposed to be master of one on one damage mitigation, with the flavor of using shields to further that. In that respect, it is the master of its domain. No one can reduce damage versus one monster as well as a gladiator can. And most of its skills work well within that frame.
to get some better multi target tanking skills, you get marauder skills , to get more distraction self heal power you get pug skills heck to get the while casting/magic dmg reduction you get thaum.
the ultimate all around tanks will make use of all the skills, but the ultimate tank is dipping into every defensive and enmity skill set in the game.
Paladin will probably be better than gladiator or marauder, so it will probably combine marauders strength and gladiators strength, basically being the best single/multitarget damage reduction enmity in the game. but notice that even then, pld will require you to level marauder to level 15.
Simply put its a game where you will always try to level multiple classes to maximize your power. The idea is taking multiple skills from various disciplines to become a master. Its also probably why they have made getting SP a lot more speedy.
But like i said, gladiator is currently falling behind in being able to actually keep the attention of one monster, and its style of doing with a shield is currently impaired, so it does need some changes. However taking away or altering these other jobs skills, will only lead to them having a huge hole in their playstyles as well.
Oh yeah and what i noticed about glad, it has no native heals, so apparently it isnt that type of self healing tank build. I wonder if paladin will be, taking from marauder and gladiator, it seems like it wont