Selling Housing Plots

I was reported by a 3rd party for selling my house. I was not reported by the person I sold the house to, since the person is someone I know. I think GMs should speak to the person that sold property and the buyer to ensure that the deal went through the way it was agreed upon. According the GMs I spoke to selling property is not against ToS unless their was lying/false advertising was involved. This decreases the headache and protects people that are following the rules.

What I don't understand is why the system for selling plots is so open...why isn't it a direct sell?

I don't know BlatantPyre, it seems silly doesn't it? What I don't understand is how I can be reported by a 3rd party, who have nothing to do with the transaction, that I never committed to sell the plot to, people I ignore and do not speak to, can turn around because they do not like me and report me for fraud and GMs actually listen. Unless it is the person I sold to, they shouldn't be able to report me for fraud. I did not fraud the person I sold to, I had been speaking to them for a few days and were going to buy my other house nor did I fraud anyone I had been speaking to about selling my plot. It makes zero sense to me.

were you talking in say, yell, or shout?
maybe someone over heard you and just felt like giving you a hard time.

No, neither of us spoke in say, yell, or shout. Even if someone just wanted to give a hard time then that should be considered harassment. The transaction did not involve them and all it is doing is creating more work for GMs and others.

Spoke to multiple GMs and this is the answer I received.

"Because the transaction is one that is not readied by the system, there is the possibility of a transaction going wrong. Should that happen, there is the possibility the transaction will be deemed inappropriate behavior towards others, resulting in disciplinary action. Based on this knowledge, players should make their own decisions on whether to engage in this type of transaction."

^as stated the act of selling a house is not against any ffxiv rules. HOWEVER, if the parties lie, steal, cheat, etc the other then disciplinary action maybe taken. In my case we agreed to a sum for the house, i received the money, and they received the house. It was a good transaction. How can a 3rd party, that was not involved, report me for a bad transaction? The person I sold to has even put in a ticket stating that the transaction was good and that they did not report me. After speaking to many GMs over the matter, they have pushed my concerns to a Senior Game Master (SGM), who should be getting in contact with me in the next few days. Hopefully, some changes will happen in the next few months to protect others from this annoyance.

Hopefully you can counter-report the 3rd party for harassment! Unless only the GMs know who they are...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gilgameshkun

"Because the transaction is one that is not readied by the system, there is the possibility of a transaction going wrong. Should that happen, there is the possibility the transaction will be deemed inappropriate behavior towards others, resulting in disciplinary action. Based on this knowledge, players should make their own decisions on whether to engage in this type of transaction."

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I can't help but notice that they themselves are calling out the ludicrous system in play...<sigh>...more things that should have been thought of from the get-go...

So, what? Are they saying that once you buy a house, they never intended for you to be able to sell it? Shouldn't they have made the system "ready" for such a transaction? How did they intend for us to participate in housing sales between players?

I hope they realize you did nothing wrong, Gilgameshkun, and moreover pass on the message to the devs that the current system isn't adequate...

People who sell their houses for more than what they would pay the npc should suffer a penalty. If you sold a small house for 5 million that would be fine. If it was 20 million I'd not feel bad for someone getting a ban.

An option to demolish and reclaim would be best, then ban anyone "selling" their houses player to player. The npc would already pay you back, no need to make a player do it again.

I disagree Rawrz, but not directly. They need to allow player to player sells, so that people ripping others off would no longer happen (or at least be easier to prevent). They should be able to absolve their transaction per an in game mechanic or system. We wouldn't need a demolish/reclaim option (which is even more tedious, imo) in such an instance. Simplification is the answer, not adding useless, backwards steps...

Under the current system, however...yeah, peeps who use it against others need to be punished. The problem is, that opens the door for what's happening to Gilgameshkun, getting reported for no reason whatsoever and having it taken seriously...

Current system:
Agree to sell house at 20 mil
Buyer pays seller 20 mil
Seller demolishes house
Buyer buys from npc for 5 million
Buyer has house for 25 mil, Seller sells house for 20 mil.

Reclaim system:
Seller sells house to npc for 5 mil.
Buyer buys house from npc for 5 mil.
No interaction between buyer and seller.

I think it's a little simpler.

People should not be able to buy and resell land for profit.

I have to agree with Rawrz, the amount of money people are overcharging for any sized house is getting ridiculous. I've seen people on Cerberus demand offers over 14m for a small house that they bought for only 3.2 originally. It's literally players with a lot of money using the housing system to make massive profits.

I spoke to the SGM, and they stated that even tho the wording states "possibility of a transaction going wrong. Should that happen, there is the possibility the transaction will be deemed inappropriate behavior towards others, resulting in disciplinary action." ie if it goes wrong then action will be taken is actually incorrect. Anyone reported by a 3rd player, regardless of the outcome of the transaction will be hit with a warning. I expressed my confusion and frustrations toward the poor wording and how that is not the players fault that the transaction is "not readied by the system". The also told me that they get many reports of this, I asked them to keep pushing this concern to their bosses to hope change this policy.

@Rawr and Bacent I am not arguing with you about the morality of the situation. If they wish to do punish people for selling then it needs to be clearly stated and outlined by rules/in-game systems. It is not, which is why I made this post because what ever "the powers that be" decide, it needs to be fixed. No rules were broken so no punishment should be given. Bots can hack and do whatever they want for months before getting even a warning, but selling a house, following the rules gets you one right away? That is ridiculous and needs to be changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Current system:
Agree to sell house at 20 mil
Buyer pays seller 20 mil
Seller demolishes house
Buyer buys from npc for 5 million
Buyer has house for 25 mil, Seller sells house for 20 mil.

Reclaim system:
Seller sells house to npc for 5 mil.
Buyer buys house from npc for 5 mil.
No interaction between buyer and seller.

I think it's a little simpler.

People should not be able to buy and resell land for profit.

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Except here's what will happen: Seller still sells house for $20 million, then sells house back to the system for an additional $5 million, buyer will still have to pay $25 million, seller makes even more money thus creating even more of an abuse-able system. People find a way to swindle, it's what they do best. If anything they'd need to create a Market Board for it with capped and regulated housing prices. Only way to functionally eliminate the abuse is to take it out of player's hands, honestly. Otherwise with the system they have in place you will always have players hoarding properties to create a false scarcity in the economy, thus creating an extortion market and thus gouging other players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Except here's what will happen: Seller still sells house for $20 million, then sells house back to the system for an additional $5 million, buyer will still have to pay $25 million, seller makes even more money thus creating even more of an abuse-able system. People find a way to swindle, it's what they do best. If anything they'd need to create a Market Board for it with capped and regulated housing prices. Only way to functionally eliminate the abuse is to take it out of player's hands, honestly. Otherwise with the system they have in place you will always have players hoarding properties to create a false scarcity in the economy, thus creating an extortion market and thus gouging other players.

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That player is seen and reported and then banned. The process is repeated until it stops being acceptable. Right now the ToS breach is in the gray. With a change like this, the ToS would be updated to include selling housing plots.

Why should any player be able to sell SERVER SPACE that belongs to square enix, just because they got their gil to it first?

With that idea Rawr do you want crafters not to be able to sell HQ crafted gear ie Crafters were selling HQ sets of 220 gear for a hella alot of gil and 1M a craft if you provided mats because they were the first people to beable to make it. Are you against old content/primal sell groups as well? Both things are the same concept people working for something in 1 shape of another and others buy it directly which is not regulated by the systems in place where people can charge crazy amounts of money. Or are you just against people selling houses because it is property?

I am against people selling clears. Gil shouldn't buy you content clears. In most games selling a service like that is punishable. If SE wants to accept this them it's fine. You can clear content an infinite amount of times.

Crafters creating 220 gear and selling them high? More power to them. They are selling an infinite resource as intended by the games design.

Housing plots do not belong to players. They are given to a player for gil and expected to be returned when you're finished with them (reclaim.) Think of it as a player selling their account for gil. Players do not own their accounts. They pay SE to have the privilege of using them.

Imagine if players could hoard ceremony bonding times and sell them just because? Players are abusing an oversight and its become an accepted norm.

For crafters I was talking about charging for the craft after you have mats and the melds, ie skill which would be the same as selling runs. Because with runs you are buying the skill of the players to carry you through content you can not do yourself. Personally I do care if people sell something they spent the time acquiring/gaining skill to do as long as the 2 parties agree and the verbal contract they had is maintained. The only issue should be if people do not deliver on the promises they made. If people don't wait to spend money on over priced plots then they don't have to, the new systems in place allow people to camp and obtain them or they can make friends and give each other plots. But again I did create this thread to argue the morality of the should players be allowed or not to sell property, and yes I know I asked Rawrz because I was curious.

According the ToS selling properties is not against anything. It is a grey area that is not properly worded or consistently enforced and left to the discretion of the GM/GMs that see the report. Which is the issue here, if the powers want to say no selling or yes to selling then it needs to be clearly stated and all people that sell should be handled the same way. End of story they need to make a choice, no yes maybe idk sorry we can't help you shenanigans that has been happening. Selling in-game property for in-game gil should not be a faster/harder punishment than speedhack botting or RMT, it just shouldn't.

I imagine because there has never been a clear, official statement stating that it wasn't against the ToS, so said user decided to report it believing it was/may have been. I don't know why you're even getting so worked up. If it's not against the rules then you won't get punished for it, no matter how many thousands of people decide to report you for it.

Also just for the record, don't equate selling an extremely limited, highly desirable piece of content to crafting a renewable resource that just so happens to be equally expensive to the material cost/initial market listing. That's an absurd argument. If anything, think of it as SE selling VERY limited Collector's Edition packages, many of which are bought up by some <mean term here> with a lot of money to throw around looking to sell them for 5 times their original value to the diehard fans who reluctantly, albeit inevitably, will cave and accept the ridiculous terms. Extorting something so precious for personal gain is inarguably a very low blow considering the tons of people who have clearly set their hearts on that aspect of the game as being their main reason for playing. Personally, it's not THAT big a deal to me, much as I'd like one, but it's very easy to empathise with their situation.

Erm, I'm under the impression, Knahli, that you haven't read the entire thread...it is a possibility he might get punished for it, which is the issue. And I must say, even if he only gets a warning, what exactly is he being warned of? What are they trying to tell him? What is he doing that he should not be doing? It's confusing that this is something that can be reported without actual cause in the first place - that is why Gilgameshkun has brought this up. And I feel it worth the thread...

That all being said, Rawrz and Knahli do make a valid point: crafting and housing are not akin, it is true. That doesn't change the fact that housing should be a market, mind you...in fact, they are calling out a point (possibly unknowingly) that actually points to and roots out the true problem behind all of this - housing is not renewable, nor is it an abundant, or even really approachable, commodity. And it should be...

I believe that Rawrz may be going about things backwards, even though his desired outcome is actually a good one, that housing be accessible to all. His solutions would not allow that, in fact as Judah called out they would be counter-productive. I also believe he misunderstood my suggested method of transaction, so to clear that up:

My system:
-Open trade window, do transaction as per agreed price.

No NPC interaction required. I'd say that's simple. Plus, if anyone tries to sell for exorbitant prices, they won't get any buyers since they no longer can lie about their intent. It wouldn't fix the current shortage, of course, nor would it help maintain prices, but it's not the method of trading that is causing that issue, rather that the current "pay-me-to-sell-back-to-bank" system simply adds to the ability to extort, where as mine would take that aspect away. The core of the problem lies elsewhere...

I know you're (Rawrz) trying to make it so prices stay stagnant, which is fine, albeit against the nature of what housing should be, limited in-game "space" or not. In truth, the entire housing structure needs to change...but right now housing is a market, it's intended to be. That isn't the problem, the problem is that it's easily abused and destructive to players (gil, enjoyment factor) as a consequence. Real estate does generally increase/decrease in value, by the way, it would be odd if they took that away...really, what they need to do is increase inventory...or change the entire housing structure so that they don't have to expand server space as much (instanced property).