People win trade at the card tournament
People win trade at vermillion (which Is probably fair since -no one does it-)
And once again, people are win trading at PVP to get the new mount (see this thread for a pic http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ankings./page9)
The issue is that SE has basically said it's okay. When people were win trading wolves den (ruining the queue for people who actually wanted to do wolves den), I believe SE publically stated that win trading wasn't bannable.
So i'm just wondering. Why include content when people just cheat their way to completion? Instead of rewarding people for 200 wins, why not reward people for 1000 participation matches (and only count wins, or fights that last more than x-min, so people cant bot it or afk)
Or why even have rewards? Why not just give people the content free?
Why is win trading such an accepted part of this game?
Printable View
-
03-11-2016, 09:34 AMAzurymberWhy is win trading such an accepted part of this game?
-
03-11-2016, 10:15 AMSuperZayHow exactly they were 'ruining' the que for other people? They would not do it otherwise at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 10:16 AMNektulos-Tuor
People won trade in PvP.
-
03-11-2016, 10:20 AMAzurymberPVP gear was added to the game as a glamour incentive to do PVPQuote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
Instead of doing PVP 100s of time to get the glamour they wanted, they formed parties and win traded for it
Hence almost no one PVPd and there were 30min+ queues at times
The whole point of gear/mounts/minions is to get people to do content
When people just cheat their way to those incentives, they skip the content
And people who want to enjoy the content can't. -
03-11-2016, 10:22 AMSuperZayAnd it didn't affected those who were not trading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
They'll include exclusive rewards for future pvp season, but with wintrading you can't obtain them because you'll lose as much ranking points as you gain. -
03-11-2016, 10:25 AMSuperZayPeople were interested only in glamour and not interested in PvP. So, as I said, they'd not do it otherwise, so it didn't affected other people's ques in any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 10:32 AMAzurymberSo if I'm not interested in doing Midas Savage I should just be able to cheat my way to the gear for glamour?Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
That argument seems really messed up. -
03-11-2016, 10:34 AMAraminaUh, people pay for carries all the time... effectively the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 10:35 AMSpawnieexactly there will always be certian people wanting the easiest way possible to obtain somethin.. god forbid actually working for it.. how long has been win trading been a thing in triple triad tournaments?? seems like nothin to stop that ever happening eithierQuote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 10:38 AMSuperZayIf Midas bosses were standing still and allowed to be killed without fighting back (like in those pvp trading parties I suppose), I'm sure most of people would do it that way. If there's an easier and faster alternative, people will always prefer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 10:47 AMTheFatHousecat
Carebear community exhibits suspiciously carebear-esque values. News at 11.
-
03-11-2016, 10:47 AMUltimateAoe2
Because it was a pain to do your Wolves' Den Challenge log. That was really it, imo..
Like the person said in the last page, They were only interested in the glamor. There was no other incentive. I don't see how it disrupts your gameplay, though. -
03-11-2016, 10:56 AMErzaScarlet77
i cant believe someone is actually trying to justify win trading.....
-
03-11-2016, 11:14 AMSuperZayQuote:
Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77
If developers are indeed fine with it, then it's irrelevant if we like it or not. It'll not go away and no point arguing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
-
03-11-2016, 11:16 AMTheFatHousecatAnd yet, people still loudly complain about parsers in spite of the devs being fine with them and acknowledging players do use them- official or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
-
03-11-2016, 11:22 AMSuperZayPeople complain only when being humilated for low dps. Because it's much easier to cry and complain than to improve your rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat
-
03-11-2016, 11:29 AMArchaellPlayers are fine with win trading, because they get rewarded for no effort. Players dislike parsers, because they force them to put in some effort. We can't be sure till we are allowed to talk about parsers, but I am starting to see a pattern here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat
-
03-11-2016, 11:38 AMEidolon
If I had to guess, the reason is simply... because the PVP in this game is Trash, so people don't wanna put in some effort on something that they don't care about outside of Glamor. That's also why Wintrades tend to do the weekly challenge log, as opposed to grinding out for the gear itself. It's just not worth the effort to your general player because of how bad PVP is in this game.
-
03-11-2016, 11:57 AMMomomiMomiOh, so that's why people buy clears. I never understood that. Makes perfect sense now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
-
03-11-2016, 12:27 PMEidolonWell, I can't speak for Alexander. I've fallen behind a bit myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by MomomiMomi
However, for Final Coil? For some people, that IS what it is.
For other people, it was access to the current raiding tier (Since the original SCOB/FCOB were blocked by the previous tier)
For other people, it is the unrestricted loot rights. (Think about primal ponies, people buy clears/farms for those all the time, though the price has greatly fallen.)
Edit: oh, and other people wanted to be able to join farm parties "Because they couldn't find a competent group to clear." These ones were fun when they asked if they could be allowed to live through the fight and contribute. -
03-11-2016, 01:21 PMKaurieThat's not true in the slightest. Creating norms, etiquette and accepted social behaviour is done by the community not the devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZay
-
03-11-2016, 01:48 PMBourne_EndeavorTo be fair, I wouldn't say people are justify it, but simply explaining why it happens. Unfortunately, there isn't really an efficient way to stop it. You can't ban based on time because you run the risk of banning innocent players. Regardless, it's just not an area the devs should focus on given win trading doesn't hurt anyone. Most people who do it aren't going to play PvP otherwise. This is why making PvP a ranked system is better. The reward is essentially meaningless to anyone not actively playing. Sure, some will still 'cheat', but not like before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77
-
03-11-2016, 05:19 PMYukiko
pvp in this case is special, because square enix tries to copy blizzard ranking system (e-sports) and force players to have them branded with their "skill". Thats why players do not like to get branded as bad or worse and try to find a way to show others they are "good" players. There are many reasons for this behaviour, but to have a public branding is a very bad decision from square enix. Special because you can cheat it in ffxiv way too easily! Square enix have to realise their dungeonfinder is not at same level as blizzards matchmaker... and even if: did they ask in blizzard community those who do not like that system? there are a lot...
How to make a community toxic? square enix can teach you! -
03-11-2016, 07:07 PMMorzy
I wont win trade. Pvp is too fun to stain like that. Lazy people.
-
03-11-2016, 08:07 PMJetstream_FoxNot really. This "win trading" as people are putting is nothing more then boosting. Getting 100 wins through illegitimate ways impacts the rankings that SE has implemented for The Feast, granted it's not really a huge impact since they will be reset each season. Boosting still leads to devalued views on content, which in turn leads to less people actively participating. Typically games that use seasons and standings usually match players with or around the same skill level to ensure quality matches. When a player boosts for their levels and go and play normally after obtaining whatever they wanted, it puts the team in disadvantage having to carry someone who claims they're rank 50 but in actuality they're rank 23. I don't think The Feast and SE use standings like this but this is just one example of why win trading or boosting is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramina
As for buying a clear, you aren't messing with ladders or global rankings, since raiding and dungeon runs aren't rank or timed for completion, nor are you being matched with random players when it comes to buying a clear. -
03-11-2016, 08:57 PMLadyVal
Win trading isn't affecting season ranking and rewards though. People who queue together have their own ranking, against others who queue together, who get no special rewards from the season depending on their rank. The people win trading for the mount aren't getting any additional rewards, and generally just stay in one language queue, get their mount, and never touch PvP again.
The way SE designed PvP is, you only get ranks to get season rewards if you queue by yourself with entirely random people and that's it. Double that, for a rank qualifier match, that HAS to be done solo, so if you somehow cheat and can't step up to the people who actually earned their spot in a qualifying match, you better git gud or accept your win trading just made you a sparkly piece of trash in PvP. I'm not saying the system is infallible, but really it is designed so that win traders will only get that mount that anyone can get from 200 wins, regardless of skill, and that's it.
ETA: I just don't see how it's a problem when the win farming gives someone credit in a ranking system that specifically gives no rewards because SE is aware this happens. I do think, however, that Triad and Verminion trading are negative because everyone has the same ranking pool and their laziness/cheating is stopping someone from getting a reward, who is actually putting in the work and abiding by the intended spirit of the competition. -
03-12-2016, 12:07 AMNoxiferNot really. It's just that most western people read it as such. As far as I remember, what was said regarding win trading in TT tournaments was, slightly paraphrased: "This isn't against the ToS, so it's not a bannable offense, but please don't do this." (Emphasis mine.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Unfortunately, SE's expectation that people respect their wishes is not as valid in our western cultures as it is in theirs =/
(Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in Japanese culture, so if anyone is and disagrees with my interpretation, please say so. Still, I'd argue that saying 'please don't do this' is more or less the opposite of 'this is okay to do'.) -
03-12-2016, 04:27 AMGaldous
This is the proof that pvp is a waste of the developers time. All it is being a mini game and joke that people will take the least resistance to get the pvp for glamour. I wish they would give such beautiful gear to more pve oriented events.
-
03-12-2016, 04:38 AMErzaScarlet77
5v5 premade match should only be for custom game, ranked should always be automated matchmaking,
all rewards should only be for matchmade game, not for custom premade
can you imagine if LoL/DOTA 2 allow custom game to affect ranked ladder? the game would be dead within weeks -
03-12-2016, 05:36 AMWelsper59Well that's not entirely true in these cases. The devs/GMs/SE are the ones who have the final say on any matter that goes on within the game. If it weren't the case, there wouldn't be any bans done for whatever reasons. We, the players, determine the norms/etiquette/etc within the grounds of what the devs are fine with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
Win-trading always hurts the content it happens in, no matter what it might be. The question is "in what way?" and to answer that, you just need to look at frequency and player wants. If it truly does become a norm for people to win trade to get what they want, the content itself becomes tarnished by the frequent acceptance that "cheating gets you what you (the general community) want"... it may not get what you specifically want, but others, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Morale is a huge contributing factor to want of participation and, eventually, low morale absolutely destroys said content to nearly irreparable levels unless devs step in to counter it with punishment. I'm speaking from first-hand experience from that one from many years ago, and honestly, so should anyone who wanted to participate in any tournament in this game.
Let's go with WoW for a minute. Many years ago, there was no function to report players as AFK in PvP. Many players (myself included) ended up just AFKing battlegrounds because of how low morale was to even play. Once it became widely known that you could just AFK "win" your way to gear, nearly everyone was taking advantage of that. Alterac Valley became an AFK-fest for both sides. 40v40 turned into 5v8 participating players, if even that sometimes, with everyone else AFK waiting out the win/loss. Basically, whoever had the most active players won... hopefully. This was usually Horde though, because of how much of a joke the objective boss is for AV. You could practically solo him, but that's just going off topic now lol. An example of when bad behavior unpunished becomes a problem. Some battlegroups were better than others... mines was definitely one of the worst.
Now if we look at FFXIV, SE is rather sloppy about their attempts to curb bad behavior. Usually it's because of execution, otherwise it's because of laxed priorities once the players have forgotten (generally a couple weeks after a "fix"). The only existing means of keeping such content as TT and LoV relevant long-term is riddled with win-trading. To practically everyone here, that alone was the primary reason why most of us stopped bothering, despite actually wanting to compete. It became common knowledge that, unless you cheated, you were not going to win or even rank. Even with LoV and their miserable attempt at mitigating win-trades, it just failed horribly and even backfired to punish/hurt players within the system that played legitimately (if I recall right, the higher rank you were naturally, the lower points you'd get... basically, the better you are, the worse you'll do).
Maybe the ranking system for this is enough to sweep win-trading under the rug for it... but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if players, soon, discover a means to win trade here for said rank rewards. If that comes to be, then you can bet that people will suddenly think "what's the point in even trying?", especially if it ends up being to the degree that win-trading obtains highest ranks lol.
You're absolutely right on the interpretation, but when you're in a position of control, you generally don't let people be bad if you can rightfully punish them for being that way. That'd be like if our law enforcement did not actually have punishments for crimes committed, but instead just told people "please don't do this", when referring to murder/theft/assault/etc. I'm fairly confident I'd have stolen quite a lot and killed a few people by now if such a thing was the accepted norm. People are going to be bad, one way or another, but you need to dissuade the vast majority by having (and most importantly: actually going through with) consequences for their actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxifer
-
03-12-2016, 06:00 AMKaurieI think you may have understood. I am not suggesting that Devs have 0 control over how players act. I was simply saying that just because the devs may be fine with it, it doesn't mean that discussing it is irrelevant and that nothing can be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
It's pretty sad that we need hard-coded or worded rules in order to behave like adults. Silly that cheating is a thing. -
03-12-2016, 06:09 AMWelsper59Ah got it. Agreed, especially in a game, but that's the reality of the world unfortunately. To be fair on that end though, I did used to use things like Game Genie a lot as a kid, but that was mostly to just for fun and it had absolutely no relevance to other players nor the people who created it, obviously lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
-
03-12-2016, 06:23 AMKaurieOh for sure. TBH I think cheating in a single player game for self enjoyment is fine. Cheating in a multiplayer environment (especially in a competitive one such as PvP) is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
When I played Skyrim I was derping in the beginning and had to do the same part over twice, and the 2nd death I was liek f that I am gonna turn on god mode rawr (just to catch up to where I was and turn it off). Issue was, I also added a Fireball (Test) cheat not knowing what it was. Turned out it was a instant cast, high damage spell with 0 resource cost. I wasn't able to actually remove it, and it ended up being hella fun to use. I raced through the entire game using this spell - the shame (but so fun).