In my opinion there is no depth or creativity to endgame in ffxiv.
At its core it's learn mechanics, fight the same boss 200 times, cross your fingers when you pop the chest, fight the same boss 200 more times, cross fingers, repeat. Bosses just change every 3 month patch.
It was great that they added a token system to Alex since farming coil was a pain. But they are sticking with a single boss/objective endgame cycle that makes the bosses of coil and alex nothing more than glorified primals with maybe a trash mob thrown in here or there before you get to the boss that really doesn't hinder the raid in anything but time and adds nothing to the enjoyment of the player.
What I would love to see in ffxiv is an actual raid, not just boss after boss after boss... after... boss... after... boss. It would be great if they could include a story as great as coils was (alex's story...meh) with more engaging and less linear content.
Think of how awesome coil would have been, or Alex and regular dungeons could be, if you entered and had various tasks that you could complete but didn't necessarily have to depending on your objective. There could be a boss and a plethora of mini bosses in a zone, which could be a static maze, a maze that you could alter by completing objectives or an open field like Diadem. Trash mobs who are more than a way to lazily impede the speed of your progress, dropping minor tokens that could be used to purchase items to buy relic or crafting materials with. Minor bosses could give broken armor that could be used to make gear slightly lesser than big boss gear, glamour pieces, mounts, furnishings, the list could go on.
You could go in and get the win to open other zones or that big loot or you could go in and farm trash mob tokens and mini bosses. It would open a whole new world of content and stay relevant next month when the ilvl went up thanks to the abundance of other items that would still be in demand.
They could add challenges that didn't require 8 people of maximum ilvl at the peak of their skills and some that did. Sure it would still be grindy but show me an mmo that doesn't have grind to it in one way or another. Grind is a fundamental staple or mmo's that will likely never disappear.
It would be a true raid and really fun. Not to mention remove the need of normal and extreme modes.
But as it stands right now, every 3 months we have a couple more bosses to kill and more tomes to grind and it has been that way since arr launched.
I just wish the devs would get more creative and get out of that loop they are in.
What are your thoughts and ideas?
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03-08-2016, 05:05 PMMicahZerrshiaWhy FFXIV endgame is flawed and how it could be great, one players opinion
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03-08-2016, 05:08 PMFoxyAreku
I'm just gonna say right now that I don't raid in MMOs to do some broad open-ended dungeon. I raid to down bosses with friends. Your idea is...interesting, but it lacks any real substance, if they went with it I'd probably quit my raid group and go to crafting 100%.
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03-08-2016, 05:14 PMElky
Raiding and dungeons are extremely linear. Its nothing more than "Go on this set path, kill trash, kill boss x3. Raids are Go to room, do mechanics through memorization. Repeat multiple times until RNG grants you a drop. Diadem was their chance to break the mold, but it failed. I am enjoying my time in the game again though so thats nice. I'm just worried it won't last long. I would love extreme dungeons instead of Expert. The word "Expert" is overglorified in this game. Its still easy. I think a 4-8 man extreme dungeon with different mechanics throughout it would be very interesting. Granting one drop after each boss, instead of 4 after you kill one boss. Like Alexander does.
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03-08-2016, 05:15 PMMicahZerrshiaBut that's the thing, there still would be bosses to grind on, but multiple other things to do as well. It's all in what you choose to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyAreku
If single bosses are for you, great go get em, but there would be other things to do too if you got bored with that one boss. -
03-08-2016, 05:21 PMFoxyArekuYeah but that's completely unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
This is a theme park mmo to begin with, you can already go do something else if you don't want to raid. Having it all in one place would just be weird. -
03-08-2016, 05:27 PMMicahZerrshiaMaybe, but weird or different isn't necessarily a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyAreku
Not to mention it would add more depth to endgame than a single boss with static mechanics. It would open endgame to more players while keeping truly hardcore endgame intact and they could add to the lore by adding small tidbits here and there.
Plus you still get what you want and other players do as well, no one else would be in the dungeon with you so who cares what people do in their own instance. -
03-08-2016, 05:29 PMFoxyArekuAnother thing I don't play MMOs for is single player experiences, that's just a waste of resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
I'm all for these things you want being in the game (most of this stuff already is, honestly), it just wouldn't make sense from a lore or development standpoint for all of it to be within alexander or whatever the next raid will be. -
03-08-2016, 05:40 PMMicahZerrshia
But SE write's the lore, so that could easily be done not to mention be new, shiney and they could get really creative with it from patch to patch. Creating new themes and new forms to the content.
And really if you MUST have single boss fights with absolutely nothing else for the sake of having exclusive content, we already have the primals for that. There is no difference between primals and Alex bosses or coil bosses and that is what I am talking about. They could expand endgame, the zones and the options for what you want to do and what you can do all in a neat package. It would be inclusive to more players and have some really fun tactics. They could be more creative than just throwing bosses in our faces.
And this endgame would still be for a group, its not a one person run thing. It would just give more options in a dungeon then enter here, go here and fight, then fight here, here and here, pop chest and leave. -
03-08-2016, 05:41 PMmirta000
I do agree with Foxy.
The reason why I prefer FFXIV end game scene to other MMOs, is BECAUSE the boss in a box design. If I had 6h a raid day, I could be doing Wildstar instead, where cleaning the raid WOULD feasibly take 6h a raid-day, because their raids are "proper" old school raids - with lotsa trash, bosses and corridors with multiple teleporters. Boss in a box design is far more user friendly. You go in, you try, you go out. -
03-08-2016, 05:45 PMGrux
I do agree with OP, in the sense that the direction is a little too linear.
It would be great if we have something similar to some great raids in WoW - Karazhan and Ulduar.
Also, what they can do is to make improve the achievement system like in WoW. This would make you tackle challenges in any way other than the linear tank, spank, dodge concept. -
03-08-2016, 05:45 PMMicahZerrshiaAgain lol we have primals for that and if you want to go straight to the big boss, he is right over there :) you don't need to run the whole thing if you don't wanna. I am looking for an expansion and more options than just boss fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by mirta000
btw guys, great discussion, thanks for keeping it cool and not insta-flames :D -
03-08-2016, 05:47 PMmirta000so I should take myself out of raiding and gear progression because of your idea of endgame, after I found that one MMO in which I can do endgame with the amount of time that I have? Alrighty then....Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
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03-08-2016, 05:47 PMStanelis
It pains me to say so, as SE edited some of the best JRPG out there in the past (like FFX, FFXII and FFXI on a game design standpoint), but the current SE no longer understand what is a RPG on a game design standpoint.
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03-08-2016, 05:52 PMMicahZerrshiaMaybe I spoke too soon LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
No, you are not understanding. You can have your gear progression, your single boss fights for your limited time constraints, they could just expand endgame into more than just single boss after single boss with a few extra trash mobs :) If you want to go fight just boss A, great go get the big guy who drops the highest tier gear. But alexander is HUGE and Dalamud was even bigger, there could be way more to it than a couple small corridors with one big boss at the end. They could really make it so much greater while keeping the masses and the more hardcore, happyQuote:
Originally Posted by mirta000
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03-08-2016, 05:55 PMmirta000from your suggestion it sounds like something end game players would have to put up with and would be inconvenienced by in one way or another. It might have even been a better suggestion if you left the raids out entirely and just said that you wanted another open world zone, as that is what it seems to fit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
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03-08-2016, 06:07 PMMicahZerrshia
Think of it as an addition to endgame. Like I said as it sits primals and alex/coil are basically endgame and nothing but single boss fights. Sure there is void arc but that again is single boss fights with minor trash mobs and a linear objective. You could technically add single boss fights into this too or keep em separate, like they did Seph this patch.
It could work in an open world setting, and I love me some open world dungeons. But like diadem they would have to add time constraints and if there were tactical objectives like changed progression through the zone slightly, blocking passage A to get to passage D for instance, that would be difficult in an open world setting since you would impede the progress of other groups. And I think it would be a good 8 man thing. You could add a great story while adding diversity to a dungeon to keep in relevant and make it something new. Add tiers of gear depending on the boss and make it so the high tier gear is on the same level as the single boss stuff if you want to make obtaining it along the same level of difficulty, unlike diadem which made getting highest tier gear waaaaay to easy. Its all about them options and relevancy. :D
Anyway I am off to bed for now. :) will see if this goes anywhere tomorrow -
03-08-2016, 06:19 PMmirta000
you see, instead of asking for new content (like an end game zone), you instead want to change content that doesn't need changing.
1. What is the point of optional objectives, if you don't force people to put up with it?
2. How do you deal with some players running off to do said optional objectives when it's an 8 man instance? Do you what? Stand in front of a boss for 15 minutes?
3. The path of least resistance. You can branch a dungeon or a raid in whatever many branches that you want, only to find out that only one branch will ever be done. And that's the one with the least amount of effort for most rewards.
I do agree with the comment in the last page - they could do with adding more achievements, which would diversify the way that the content is done already. I wouldn't want the content to change though. -
03-08-2016, 06:35 PMKeramory
I agree with both sides, which is why we should have both!!!!
I love a typical kill a boss or two raid, but we should have some new options for full on raids.
In 1.0 we had nightmarish endgame times dungeon/raid ...things... Which honestly would be a welcome addition to have back every so often as long as it doesn't become the norm.
The coils started out this way but it kind of dropped quickly. -
03-08-2016, 06:44 PMKhalithar
The only way I could imagine SE doing a non-linear dungeon would be one where you could kill the first few bosses in any order before killing the final one, that's about it.
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03-08-2016, 07:01 PMBourne_Endeavor
People wouldn't do more than half of what you're suggesting. Look at the Diadem. It died partially because people are not interested in a massive zone with annoying trash mobs and areas they have to explore. The current raid scene is popular because of its simplicity. Adding story and whatever else will only push them away. This is why we have Normal and Extreme/Savage. Those only looking for story have the 'easier' option while others have a challenge. If you question actual raiders, I suspect very few will complain beyond asking for more fights.
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03-08-2016, 07:16 PMJetstream_FoxSo why play this one? It's built for a player to do everything themselves. Only dungeons and raiding require more people. Raiding is such a small portion of this game I don't even know why they bother with it, it's not fun content 90% of the time. Dungeons are nearly in the same boat because of fates, which can be quicker to level up with depending on certain circumstances. Honestly you beat one raid boss you beat them all given how badly they seem to follow the exact same format of burning adds and learning patterns. Give me more raids like Steps of Faith prenurf and then maybe I'll change my views.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyAreku
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03-08-2016, 07:24 PMBHGlobbd
I like the idea of it being similar to Diadem, but it doesn't have to become irrelevant with the next patch/ilvl increase. What if this zone was vertically large, divided into tiers based on the patch cycle, these upper tiers are locked until the next patch. When the patch hits the next tier opens with new bosses that drop the new ilvl. The previous tiers are now still relevant.
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03-08-2016, 08:42 PMBubblyBoar
Diadem will be getting updates like every all other content. It just comes on odd numbered patches instead of even numbered ones.
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03-08-2016, 08:49 PMStanelisPeople are not interested in the diadem because it is plain dull and boring (you basically had to bash mobs in order for monsters to spasn), and flawed on a game design standpoint. I can hardly call that exploration. Exploration cannot take place in an instance where you have to enter with 7 people, with a hard timer, with no real points of interest. The diadem are merely floating rocks in the sky, you can hardly find that compelling and interesting as an exploration field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Give us an interesting maze in which you d have to explore in order to find interesting bosses (and even maybe with puzzles to get to some parts of the maze), and that will be what exploration is.
Assuming most of the dedicated raiders are still playing FFXIV, which is a long shot. I no longer bother with raiding in FFXIV because it is just boring.Quote:
If you question actual raiders, I suspect very few will complain beyond asking for more fights.
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03-08-2016, 08:52 PMMerleSirlos
But it depends on how you look at the content. The entire Coil was one big area (you end up in the same room once you finish each of them) made of three big corridors leading to the center where you get to fight the final boss once you cleared all three corridors bosses. In the end it ends up as how they come out. Do you want the dev team to give you everything at the same time and then nothing for a year? Or do you prefer to cut it in parts and have multiple entry points that are basically just "save points" but you get a new one every 3 months?
another point is accessibility. Like someone mentioned, doing a raid that is too big and takes too much time to complete will keep people away from it. You could find a way around it by saving your progress but then you can't farm a specific boss if you want to. The way FFXIV handles it makes sense from that point of view, coil and Alexander are one big raid each with several rooms and bosses that are connected. But you choose which one you want to do when they are on df and have a saved progression when it's freshly released. That way everyone can do it at his own pace. -
03-08-2016, 08:55 PMStanelisYou re saying that assuming raids should be linear. Which they really don't have to be. Also, the idea that all there is to raid should be farming bosses show how dull the genre become.Quote:
Originally Posted by MerleSirlos
Also, there are ways to save progression in a linear raid (see world of warcraft).
Raid isn't only about bosses or trash mobs. But most people forgot what a RPG was since blizzard took world of warcraft away from the RPG genre, during WOTLK, in 2009-2010. Resulting in the production of flawed MMORPG for years, no wonder the popularity of the genre is quickly decreasing. -
03-08-2016, 09:12 PMMerleSirlosI'm not saying raid is only farming bosses, just that it is for some people and you need to be careful not to take it out for them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MerleSirlos
My favorite turns in coil were 2 and 3, 2 because you had to choose a path depending on your party composition and 3 beacause I had a lot of fun in there.
And I agree with you that it doesn't need to be linear. But people are lazy and will always follow the most efficient part. So even if you make something non-linear and someone finds out there is one way that does it the fastest (even by less than a minute in an hour long run), at least 90% of the people will follow that path making your non linear dungeon/raid/whatever it is a linear one because of the players. -
03-08-2016, 09:24 PMWarlyxyet i still think ulduar has been the best raid in the last years....both thematically and with interesting mechanics with a HUGE ZONE , lots of bosses , its has a train even !Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.c...duar-train.jpg -
03-08-2016, 09:25 PMStanelisThat's only because, in FFXIV, everything revolves around repeating something a very large amount of time. Maybe people would be in less of a hurry if the replay value of the content was better and didn't require so much farm.Quote:
But people are lazy and will always follow the most efficient part.
WOTLK was great thematically (including ulduar), but wow started to go downhill from that point. Like ToC was utter garbage and in ICC only a few bosses were interesting (the last from the wings, and arthas). Also, ulduar wasn't linear.Quote:
yet i still think ulduar has been the best raid in the last years....both thematically and with interesting mechanics with a HUGE ZONE , lots of bosses , its has a train even !
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03-08-2016, 09:27 PMMilesSaintboroguhThen it wouldn't be an MMORPG then. People would get everything done then unsub until next patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
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03-08-2016, 09:33 PMStanelisGenerally, when you complete the content of a video game, you generally move on to another game while waiting for new content to be released, which is totally fine. But that can be avoided by providing replay value to the content (like, making something fun enough to be worth playing a large number of time, for example by making the players adapt to changes in the pattern of the content), which is sorely lacking in FFXIV, as the battle system is too simple and lacks depths and synergies (you basically only DPS and heal, as a class, and have minimal amounts of reactive utility spells).Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
Also, it is true that old MMORPG have an history of trying to make players stick to the game by implementing grinds, which isn't good game design (and the reason why MMORPG were not popular before WoW, a game which reduced the grind compared to older MMORPG). -
03-08-2016, 10:38 PMAeraLure
I don't mind the farming. I've always been one to grind. I just don't find the grind in this game to be fun:
Stats are too simple. There's really not a lot of customization to do.
Elemental attributes are not used at all. Could have provided variation in choice of eq or weapon setup per area.
Eq is too linear. Pretty much just equip the highest iLvl thing. There could have been other weapon types for each job.
The tome/token system isn't really that exciting.
I wish it had some elements of PSO. That game still did a lot of heavy farm elements right imho. In every area you might encounter a rare version of a monster with a really rare drop. A reason going back to a low level area with a max character was still fun. You might also get a weapon with different elemental attributes. Or you could swap between a few weapon styles during combat.
I still find this game fun in different ways, but occasionally tedium gets to me and it's not the grinding. Love grinding. It's sort of more how it's done here. Stats need more depth. Need reasons to replay area that make it fun.
Also end game raiding would be better (to me) if it wasn't a boss in a box style. There's no atmosphere. No story. No sense of exploration. Just go slam yourself against a foe. It does get old. -
03-08-2016, 10:59 PMAlberelThe diadem died because it was poorly implemented and extremely unrewarding. There are other MMOs with similar content where it is very popular, but in those games there's more structure, more of a purpose to going there, and it rewards you very nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
Honestly if there's any other form of endgame content I'd like to see it's Nyzul Isle from XI. XI had so much variety in its different forms of endgame content. I don't know why SE isn't adapting them for XIV. -
03-08-2016, 11:42 PMAnduinLynn
Unrewarding? I make 100-200k a run with petros, and if I get 3 spools an extra 140k for a wind silk. The combat perhaps might be lacking, but there are still the eso and lore reward and I believe spools are obtainable from monsters as well.
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03-09-2016, 01:36 AMRhaegarFFXIFenrir
I had this discussion in Teamspeak with some friends the other night. I mentioned that it would be nice to have something like dynamis/sky/sea in the game. Something where we could get a few people or a lot of people together and tackle content. They pointed out my error: that content was not fun. It was a chore you had to do if you wanted any decent gear. Each of them were hours of mindless content that you basically beat by throwing a lot of bodies at and praying to RNGesus for a drop.
The thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong with the raiding system of XIV. It's designed for smaller groups and places and emphasis on player skill rather than just overwhelming with numbers. It's a perfect fit for this game.
What I would like to see is even smaller raids. Something like a Nyzul Isle or Salvage designed for 4 players. The drops would all be tokens. Get enough of them together and you get a piece of almost top tier gear (i235 for example).
The Tower would be something with 100 random levels like Nyzul was and resets every week. You can only get 1 boss/zone clear drop each week, but put other items in there that as well that would have no weekly cap, or perhaps have the trash mobs drop some crafting materials that can only be found in that content.
The Salvage-like raid could consist of 2 parties of 4, each with their own loot tables. Completing instances of that would unlock a branching system of instances. Once a path is chosen, the player is stuck on that path until weekly reset. Each party would have their own loot tables and that loot would once again be tokens. The trade in for the drops would require several tokens plus some crafted goods. This gear would be top notch, but would take a lot of work/time investment to get those gears.
The point of these examples is that they are comprised of small teams rather than large raids. The mechanics are a bit different from the norm but a SKILLED semi-casual player could still get through this content. It would supply an alternative type of raid to those who are skilled enough to do savage alexander but can't find a static or can't commit to the time requirements a static requires. -
03-09-2016, 02:08 AMMicahZerrshiaBut that is the point, tome farming is not fun and after you do learn the bosses rotations you can mostly go into autopilot. As hard as titan ex was at i90, as soon as you learn it, autopilot and kill it 200 times, cross your fingers and repeat. It requires some skill and a lot of attention at first, then just muscle memory.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir
They could still give us mechanic heavy fights on bosses. Things that required skill and not just bodies. But it could be more than a room with a big pissed off whatever. They could implement it so the big boss room is fairly easy to access for those who like a simple, one shot boss. But they could do so much more that does take skill, cooperation and creates actual enjoyment.
And I think people are looking at it too much like diadem and thinking inside the same box that the devs do, which is why we are stuck in a cycle of uncreative endgame.
Think outside the boss in a box and the horribly implemented diadem/tome system. -
03-09-2016, 03:12 AMAmiazeI can't say I disagree with your ideas, but I don't exactly agree with them, either. As someone else said, FFXIV is a theme park MMO. People often ask for the devs to change certain aspects of it, but they wanted it to be a theme park from the beginning of 2.0, so many of these things simply won't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
That being said, I do think that there is room for diversity in the raids still. Our final bout with ADS changed depending on our party composition and overall DPS output: you had more than one path and you could either go through the mechanics or go for a hard DPS check. Building upon this idea for future raids wouldn't be bad.
Diadem was a good attempt, but I think part of the reason it failed was because it tried to be too much at once. It tried to cater to disciples of war/magic, disciples of the hand, and disciples of the land while adding large and interesting exploration while having both trash mobs and bosses while implementing the broadest RNG-based loot system in the game...without making other dungeons and endgame raid gear-drops pointless.
My suggestion would be to focus on splitting some of the ideas presented in Diadem into future content within dungeons/raids without betraying the theme park ride that is FFXIV. The argument against multiple options is that players will always choose the option of least resistance, but making it so that there are varying paths based on your play style and party composition (again, like ADS) is much more interesting idea, in my opinion. -
03-09-2016, 03:30 AMmirta000Wildstar adventures. You outgear them so fast that you're lucky to run them once. Still only a specific path is ever chosen (the only people to have ever seen all paths of Malgrave, either begged their guild, or were there at launch).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
GW2 dungeons done for monetary rewards (before HoT when money was good enough). CoF P1 was spammed. CoF P3 was almost never touched, even though it did offer more rewards. Path of least resistance.
GW2 fractals (a dungeon made out of random instances). You would always RNG swamp first because it's fast. Now that they divided the fractals and you no longer have to do 3 connected ones, but rather just 1, swamp is the ONLY thing ever run.
In these games you not only not have to repeat this content a lot, but you can skip it entirely. Yet the same mentality persists. -
03-09-2016, 04:42 AMFoxyArekuEverything requires other people. The only thing you can do on your own is the open world junk (which is the same for all mmos).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox
They even made crafting require other people, I love it.
I guess I just don't understand why you have to have all this in one place.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
I'd rather this stuff be spread out across the world like it currently is. If my understanding of your idea is correct you want a lot of stuff to do other than downing bosses, but we already have that with crafting, gold saucer, glamour farms, diadem, just to name a few. There's so much stuff to do in this game other than downing bosses it just seems like a waste of time to me to make the same stuff except putting them in the raid for some reason. :) -
03-09-2016, 04:52 AMChaselyFFXI had several of these types of raids. They were immensely popular, but then again, they didn't become worthless 3-6 months later.Quote:
Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia
Nyzul Isle was a 100 floor dungeon with bosses every 10 floors. Your progress was saved every 5. You got random objectives for mthe lamp at the start of the dungeon. They included killing specific mobs, wiping out all the trash in the zone, completing puzzles, etc. The floors also had random layouts. No two climbs were exactly the same.
Dynamis was a massive instance full of monsters where you and up to 63 of your friends could farm trash for gear and special currency, kill bosses for weapon upgrades, etc. there were special monsters which increased your max time in the zone so you could farm for longer periods.
Salvage was a dungeon with multiple paths which changed as you cleared objectives. You could get tokens and special slips which allowed you to get new gear and weapons.
There were also overworld events where you could join millitary divisions and fight back hordes of monsters to claim territories in the name of your kingdom. The rewards were large amounts of EXP, and points your could spend to buy new gear, teleport around for free, etc.
Those were just a few of the options we had in FFXI. all of which were rendered pointless when Yoshi-P took over, created an easy mode set of dungeons, and drove half the playerbase off. Massive server merges followed about 6 months later.