A Non-Support Job Progression for Archer

Hello Forum Community,

I'm new here, I started as an Archer due to my love of mobile DPS classes in other games and my general appreciation for archery. Yet, I find it counter-intuitive that a DPS class that requires 30 levels in Archer (DPS) and 15 in Pugilist (DPS) progresses into a "support" class with no other option.

Do we know if more jobs are on the way in the future? I think that an Archer30/Rogue15 assassin type class would be interesting, focusing on shots from stealth, poisons, and positioning for shots in the back. An Archer30/Thaum15 "Arcane Archer" with elemental arrows and debuff shots might also be fun. I'm just throwing out ideas here.

Does anyone else feel that the addition of more jobs to branch out from would benefit Archer, or any other class? Do you think it would add to the game, detract from it, or neither?

-Gh0st

Addendum:

Don't get me wrong, I like playing my Bard. However, I think it would be nice if there were an option for another job progression with abilities that continue to focus solely on the sowing of death. In this way, people who enjoy Archer can continue on as solely DPS. I enjoy the fact that Arcanist has two Jobs to choose from, differentiated by their secondary class. Maybe something similar could work for Archer?

I'm not looking forward to Wanderer's Minuet, but I'll reserve judgment until I've hit 60 and tried the full rotation. I do think that it lends itself to the feel of a support role, settling into one position to focus, but I feel that makes the idea of a secondary archer-based job that retains it's mobility even more attractive.

Well many (who had no experience with cast times mind you) were complaining at first about WM but now that players have actually taken time to learn it, it's not as bad for those individuals.
Bard still has more mobility then classes out there and SE will eventually add new jobs, if they are support or not we do not yet really know.
Some had suggested Ranger and such as a possible branch off but i think the current Archer/Bard setup is here to stay.

Bard is dead. SE is of the mindset the job is fine, it's not. It is no longer fun to play, end of argument. The BRD/MCH community will see no support from SE in making the jobs fun again. 4.0 things will only get worse.

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Originally Posted by Alitasan

Bard is dead. SE is of the mindset the job is fine, it's not. It is no longer fun to play, end of argument. The BRD/MCH community will see no support from SE in making the jobs fun again. 4.0 things will only get worse.

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Can't tell if troll or not. My troll senses are fading :( Oh well

It's fine if you don't like it, but don't assume everyone hates it. No "end of argument" here.

Not trolling at all, the job we knew as bard is dead. it's a support bow mage now that has no roll definition. It's the end of the argument as in there is nothing you can say, no evidence to bring forward that will ever convince me that I am having fun going from ranged dps to support bow mage.

I'll be honest, I can't stand the new post 50 bard (and I have hours upon hours of playtime with casters), but as far as being support DPS goes it only really has an impact on your gameplay experience in the sense that you don't see huge numbers. As far as songs go they aren't difficult to use or a hassle at all and they increase your parties survivability as well as ensure there's always a spot for a ranged DPS. In regards to additional branching jobs I would say the chances are slim to none of that ever happening again since SE isn't really fond of that system but that being said, I love your ideas and hope you continue to enjoy the class, cheers!

I still hate minuet. I don't mind the cast times so much just hate the reduced mobility. Skills are cool iron jaws is great for example. Not so great when you have to move and let it fall off though.

I'd be happy if they kept the cast times but just made it so moving didn't interrupt shots.

Mobility was a huge reason why I chose the class. (That and visions of it being a ranger way back in 1.0)

I've also noticed a lot less bards recently and get quite a few comments when I go as a bad from them being apparently so rare. So if I add that to the threads I've read here i think a lot of people are very unhappy with bard post 50.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well many (who had no experience with cast times mind you) were complaining at first about WM but now that players have actually taken time to learn it, it's not as bad for those individuals.
Bard still has more mobility then classes out there and SE will eventually add new jobs, if they are support or not we do not yet really know.

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I'll still say the way they implemented the changes to BRD sets a terrible precedent. Makes me worry about who will be next to receive that treatment, since it's pretty clear the devs haven't learned from this at all.

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Some had suggested Ranger and such as a possible branch off but i think the current Archer/Bard setup is here to stay.

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*goes into coughing fit*

This will never happen.

If we ever DO get another bow dps job, which I doubt will happen, at least not for a very very long time, it won't be a progression of archer. It would be it's own job, likely start at a high level like dk/ast/mac did.

Classes are done. Do not expect to ever see another class ever again and don't expect any new job to use any of the current classes abilities (excluding cross class abilities, of course)

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Originally Posted by Slappah

This will never happen.

If we ever DO get another bow dps job, which I doubt will happen, at least not for a very very long time, it won't be a progression of archer. It would be it's own job, likely start at a high level like dk/ast/mac did.

Classes are done. Do not expect to ever see another class ever again and don't expect any new job to use any of the current classes abilities (excluding cross class abilities, of course)

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If classes are truly done, perhaps we can even expect those cross-class abilities to go. All healers get Cleric Stance at 2. All ranged get Raging Strikes at 2. All physical get Internal Release at 12 and Blood for Blood at 34. All tanks get Provoke at 22. Each class loses a unique ability, but traits for those unique abilities remain. There, don't need to even pretend that we're necessarily different from MMOs (as shallow as that difference may be); leveling multiple jobs is now entirely optional.

Short of that, though, another bow job almost certainly will stem from the archer class, due to the design (call it a shambling relic, if you like, but for now it exists nonetheless) choice of weapon exclusivity. All shield-paired swords are GLD, all axes are MRD, all books are ACN, all daggers are ROG, all spears are LNC, all bows are ARC, and with the new jobs, all globes are AST, all greatswords are DRK, all guns are MCH. If you add a bow job, without removing classes outright, it would be base design stem from ARC.

@Sub-topic
The reason BRD stands is because of the sheer speed by which they killed off roughly a third of the bard population. The remainder who main it had no choice but to learn and perfect its new style, which after enough time being forced through, many come to enjoy the intricacies of. It was horrible application, but the final design itself wasn't terrible.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

another bow job almost certainly will stem from the archer class

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They've said multiple times they wish to phase out classes.
It's not an "almost certainly" thing...the crossclass we have now will just stay that way, what we have now.

Having leveled several classes, I can see the issue. I've leveled mch already and I loved the mobility it provided, but the whole being turned in to a caster thing was a little jarring when it happened. Once I got used to it, it wasn't so bad and I definitely noticed the higher dps.

Not liking the change is perfectly valid feedback and wanting it to stay how it was for 51+ levels is perfectly valid feedback. I just don't expect it to ever change, sadly bow/gun mages are here to stay.

Well stating a job is dead because one simply does not find it fun is not valid feedback, 1 opinion does not account for all the players who still love/play Bard.
The subject OP started i am fairly sure was not so Bards who are still unhappy can turn it into a Bard is broken post again.
Also dunno why the name bowmage still is being used, omg cast times (like they are even long), let's call Bard bowmage.... sigh

I did intend this thread to be about what future possibilities could exist for bow wielding jobs. I don't plan to give up on my bard just because there are cast times in my future, I have often played mages in other games so it's not really an issue for me so much as, in my opinion, an odd leap of logic to add those mechanics to a class that did not use them for 50+ levels.

Rather than discuss our gripes with the existing Bard paradigm, I wanted to broach the (unlikely, reading the replies) possibility that there may be more Bow jobs in the future. I will still play my Bard, but I'll likely main my DRG going forward. I enjoy the powerful DPS feel of Lancer so far, enough to power level it from 1-20 in one evening and not get bored. However, as someone whose spring weekends often involve hitting the forest range with my bows, I really wish there was a pure DPS, mobile ARC progression I could sink my teeth into.

I'd like to discuss hypothetical ARC jobs people might like to see.

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Originally Posted by Gh0stC0de

I'd like to discuss hypothetical ARC jobs people might like to see.

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Repost from the "Split Archer into Bard and Ranger?" thread:

I think I'll go ahead and try my hand at a revision.

Gameplay synopsis:

Archer

Though the Archer lacks the combo dynamics of other jobs, it does have plenty of dynamics of its own. The Archer has two stances, Quick Draw and Full Draw, the extent of which vary with bow type. Optimal play dances between the two, maximizing Quick Draw for speed, oGCD refresh, and auto-attacks, and Full Draw for heavier damage and stacked oGCD nukes. Though the Archer's skillgap has increased somewhat, so too has its versatility. In addition to a wide range of CDs at its disposal, the Archer can stack resources above their optimal point for more burst, and can sacrifice bits of damage rate to more quickly attack or affect enemies in quick succession. Its utility is not as great as some other classes, but its range, movement, and dps control make it an incredibly useful class for any team.

Bard

The Archer's support variant, the Bard, builds on the dynamics of the fight and party composition itself through the use of songs. Though the Bard is slightly weaker in base attack power than its source class, it is able to make up these differences personally through its new mechanics and several-fold through the songs those mechanics support. The Bard essentially works within up to 8 stances, combinations of its two source stances, and the subtler nuances of its four songs (Army's Paeon, Mage's Ballad, Foe Requiem, and Windsong), which each alter certain mechanics and the nature of certain damaging abilities. The Bard provides significant overall bonuses to raid damage (most notably via casters) and longevity. Songs can be started and affected or altered quickly, but their full use is characterized by casts and intensified drain on the Bard's mana, and in part their damage.

Ranger

The Ranger is essentially the opposite side of the coin from Bard. Rather than focusing on the battlefield through one's party, it prefers to look at the points of interest among its many targets. The Ranger is tends more towards Full Draw and to longbows than the Archer or Bard, but is still plenty mobile through its abilities even then, especially if willing to sacrifice certain of its highly versatile resources. The most notable among these resources are its ammunition, which provide a similar range of nuance to Bard songs, but in a distinct style. Ammunition acts both as weapon- and mechanical-augmentation and as the resource cost for certain abilities. The Ranger still carries a fair bit of support, but of a very specific and typically offensive nature. All but a few of the Ranger's abilities play out into its rotation, but due to the utility embedded in several, the order by which these are used, sometimes at slight cost, can go a long way in supporting a group. It is no more technical than the Bard, but its intricacies are often sharper and play out more according to the Ranger's own arsenal than the party as a whole.

Other early notes:

• Full Draw replaces Wanderer's Minuet, and is slightly a lighter variant, especially in implementation or introduction. It initially affects only Heavy Shot, and only by reducing movement speed while readying the shot while increasing damage, accuracy, and cast rate with the time spent stationary. It gradually affects more abilities with increased levels, across three traits (in place of the basic +%damage traits, which is partly afforded by default and partly through these stances), while the effects of mechanics available without Full Draw (called, for convenience, Quick Draw) increase. Its effect on animations has been vastly improved.
• The weapon speed of one's bow has an effect on the cast times and animation speeds of several abilities, including all those affected by Full Draw. Choice of bow does not necessarily advantage one stance over another, but will slightly change how they are used.
• Bard songs are now used not only for raid support but also personal mechanics, and their support elements have different levels of range and deployment, ranging from point-support (on or around a particular target, enemy or ally) to affecting nearby allies with your personal mechanics, to standard widely dispersed raid support. Mana costs similarly vary.
• Ranger-unique abilities add certain complicators and priorities to their original Archer arsenal, but little need be only for the sake of damage. The overall damage of a Ranger lies between a Ninja's and a Black Mage's, but the Ranger still provides a fair amount of utility. It is simply less universally useful than that of a Ninja. Its full usage, also, due to ammunition cost, is often more 'emergency only'.

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P.S. At this point I don't find WM awkward at all. If anything I find pre-WM Bard somewhat flat, just post-WM's stance-dancing to be a bit too limited. Overall I simply find WM a wasted opportunity to do more or do better, and that it was far too large a change to implement in a single level, let alone to give to the job rather than the class. Full Draw, therefore, implemented in a few different trait augmentations alongside no-FD mechanical extensions, seemed the obvious choice to me. Stance dancing returned, clunkiness mitigated (especially with shortbows), application and learning curve smoothed.

I realize that the above version of Ranger as anything less than a purest form of DPSer might not appeal to some, but I have trouble envisioning enough difference or synergy between its possible abilities to feel fleshed out without a bit of embedded utility that can optionally be capitalized upon. I intend for Ranger to appeal to those who can enjoy MCH for its myriad priorities but dislike its downtime, those who like it's CD holding and synergy but wish it didn't stack up into quite such a 'tonnage burst' or 'lull between' dynamics, or dislike its clunkiness prior to mastering it and don't which to spend quite so much time and attention looking at their bars, or would rather think about their skills in regards to incoming phases, enemies, and consequent opportunities to maximize its CDs as a part of the fight itself rather than via the mandatory complexity of the arsenal itself.

(Personally I still think MCH could use some identity improvements as well, such as by spending it's -5% magic/physical damage done abilities on more mechanical (read: robotics- or gunnery-related) things, and that Gauss Barrel ought to at least change its animation to warrant its cast times. It works in button-flow, but it makes no visual sense.)

Short of revising the class system to allow for free-form jobs, giving us such nominal (player-named) jobs as Hunter, Mage Bow, Rune Archer, War Druid, etc., etc., I do think Ranger is about the only possibility we're really going to get by way of any other Bow job.

I'd be fine with seeing Ranger as a job, but I don't actually believe removing it from the Archer class stem is necessary. And as it'd be an equally large conceptual change to design to remove an already claimed weapon (the bow) from a class as to allow class abilities to change effect under different Job Crystals, I don't think leaving it as a class breaks precedent nor restricts its opportunities. A Ranger could easily go an entirely different route from archer, by including combos like virtually every other class, loaded-combos like Machinist, or even a new sort of combos altogether; it could add unique mechanics, it could include certain close-range attacks, it could include traps, it could include ammo; so on and so forth. But the prior does little to necessarily change or iconically fit gameplay, and the latter can be added with level 30+ job abilities. It truly can go either way.