With notifications of class quests comin, can we have a more noticeable job tutorial?

You know, maybe something when you hit level 30 on a class and finish the class quest that tells you what you need to do advance to your job?

Getting people as classes at level 35+ is really irritating. Even worse on the very rare occasion you get someone in heavensward content as a class (I'd be for baring off heavensward instances to classes as well btw).

Thoughts?

I'd be for putting a lock on MSQ around level 40 before you unlock A job. Long ago there was an argument for staying a base class sometimes, but with the stat boost as a job and no new skills for base classes (possibly ever), there is no reason to not shove people into jobs. Holding the MSQ hostage until people realize they realize they REALLY should do that, seems reasonable to me.

That's also good. Why not at this point?

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

I'd be for putting a lock on MSQ around level 40 before you unlock A job. Long ago there was an argument for staying a base class sometimes, but with the stat boost as a job and no new skills for base classes (possibly ever), there is no reason to not shove people into jobs. Holding the MSQ hostage until people realize they realize they REALLY should do that, seems reasonable to me.

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Isn't that taking basic progression away for paid subscribers? Savage and stuff is optional. MSQ isn't.

I had a MRD35 in a Lv16 Leveling Roulette in Qarn (not synced as that was his highest "class") who kept asking me (I was leveling MCH) why I was taking more hate than him during the run. He was just using his combo moves to draw hate but never used Overpower. I told him to use Overpower, but when he did he wasn't lining up the attack in a cone to get the monsters' attention. I checked his player card on the party list and he ONLY has MRD at Lv35 and NOTHING else. I asked him why he never unlocked WAR and he said he did not know how to...

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

I'd be for putting a lock on MSQ around level 40 before you unlock A job. Long ago there was an argument for staying a base class sometimes, but with the stat boost as a job and no new skills for base classes (possibly ever), there is no reason to not shove people into jobs. Holding the MSQ hostage until people realize they realize they REALLY should do that, seems reasonable to me.

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Sure why not. I'll still take off my job stone whenever I feel like it so it won't effect me in the slightest. #voidarklancerftw

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Isn't that taking basic progression away for paid subscribers? Savage and stuff is optional. MSQ isn't.

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The proposed idea isn't taking anything away nor does a subscription mean that everything is available to every player at any given time. Much of the game is already locked behind the completion of certain quests, Lethallin's idea would fit right in with that, and it would be a victimless addition. Anyone who hasn't yet unlocked their job by 40 would be helped by it and anyone they would party with would also be benefited. Its a solid idea.

I'd say go one further, lock MSQ 30+ behind jobs only, and all dungeons past level 30 (and guildhests 30+) can only be queued for by jobs, and all raids and trials can only be queued for on jobs, and same for PvP. Also, all mobs above level 50 gain a wombo combo move that will 1-hit kill ANYONE on a class that they use instantly on a class upon aggro (no cast time, they're immune to stuns etc, 500 yalm range).

Not only that but if you're killed by this move 3 times in a week, your character gets instantly deleted. No undoing.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I'd say go one further, lock MSQ 30+ behind jobs only, and all dungeons past level 30 (and guildhests 30+) can only be queued for by jobs, and all raids and trials can only be queued for on jobs, and same for PvP. Also, all mobs above level 50 gain a wombo combo move that will 1-hit kill ANYONE on a class that they use instantly on a class upon aggro (no cast time, they're immune to stuns etc, 500 yalm range).

Not only that but if you're killed by this move 3 times in a week, your character gets instantly deleted. No undoing.

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Can't really tell where you stopped being serious here but I'm guessing around the mob 1 hit to class bit. The reason you want dungeons and trials locked behind a job is one of the very reasons it will never happen. Many people enjoy making premade parties and doing content with classes for an extra challenge. To lock content behind jobs denies them the ability to do something they have every right to attempt. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Law gear is class/job equipable as opposed to Eso gear which is job only. SE clearly supports the fact that people even at level 60 may want to play without a job stone.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Can't really tell where you stopped being serious here but I'm guessing around the mob 1 hit to class bit. The reason you want dungeons and trials locked behind a job is one of the very reasons it will never happen. Many people enjoy making premade parties and doing content with classes for an extra challenge. To lock content behind jobs denies them the ability to do something they have every right to attempt. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Law gear is class/job equipable as opposed to Eso gear which is job only. SE clearly supports the fact that people even at level 60 may want to play without a job stone.

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Then make all later gear hidden behind a job stone. I was being serious with every single part of my post.

There's actually a fair deal of advantage going into some pvp modes as a base class, not a job.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Also, all mobs above level 50 gain a wombo combo move that will 1-hit kill ANYONE on a class that they use instantly on a class upon aggro (no cast time, they're immune to stuns etc, 500 yalm range).

Not only that but if you're killed by this move 3 times in a week, your character gets instantly deleted. No undoing.

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Guess all DoL are screwed in HW then. Die three times and your deleted. Yeah not seeing any way this idea could be seen as good.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Guess all DoL are screwed in HW then. Die three times and your deleted. Yeah not seeing any way this idea could be seen as good.

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For that I would consider the DoL as a job once it hits 30. Some for DoH. That's that problem resolved. I still stand by my idea.

Making unlocking a job a requirement at some point in the MSQ in the thirties is actually a brilliant idea. Introduce it as a non-optional quest that explains why you would want to upgrade your class to a job and leads you to an NPC that gives you information about how to unlock each job, and which you can return to if you ever need that information again.

I would start with scratching the secondary class requirement for a job, then putting the job quest onto the class trainer so they can be picked up right as you finish your lvl 30 quest.

Should be enough, really. If there's still a large amount of newbies unable to find their way to a job, then you may consider locking MSQ or similar behind it.

I would just delete the classes and let all start as a job and at 30 you get just a quest which leads you to your new job teacher.
Expand crossclassing to crossjobing and more just only 2 crossclasses/jobs.
Easy and clean.


I never understood how people can overlook the new quest in their class guild, they are also red/locked, that should make everyone curious...

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I would just delete the classes and let all start as a job and at 30 you get just a quest which leads you to your new job teacher.
Expand crossclassing to crossjobing and more just only 2 crossclasses/jobs.
Easy and clean.


I never understood how people can overlook the new quest in their class guild, they are also red/locked, that should make everyone curious...

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Well, maybe because most of the red quest you see while you do your leveling mean it's a crafting quest.

Honestly...I'd rather they remove classes and make them all Jobs period.

I realize that the game would need a Retcon. And I know Lore buffs (I am one) would resent that.

But honestly...classes are an unneeded remnant from 1.0's architecture that have done nothing but hinder the game and complicate adding new jobs, armory space, and etc.

I say Retcon the lore, turn Cross-Class skills into Cross Job skills (more useful cross abilities this way too.) and just remove classes period.

If they decide to keep the classes with the previous jobs then I too believe that the MSQ should be locked at a stage until a player gets their job stone.

I also believe that come 50 the only way a player can use a class in a duty at all is to go in with a premade group.

I get that some find playing classes fun but you're simply gimping yourself and expect other 3/7 players to be ok with that?

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Originally Posted by Andrea

If they decide to keep the classes with the previous jobs then I too believe that the MSQ should be locked at a stage until a player gets their job stone.

I also believe that come 50 the only way a player can use a class in a duty at all is to go in with a premade group.

I get that some find playing classes fun but you're simply gimping yourself and expect other 3/7 players to be ok with that?

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You people act like vote kicking is so hard.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

You people act like vote kicking is so hard.

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I queue up as a tank. I decide it'll be fun to go as a gladiator. I proceed to be kicked within 5 minutes of the dungeon starting.

Now lets say no one can get a friend to queue up. What happens then? wait god knows how long for a new tank, or back to the long as hell dps queues you go.

Why should I be forced to wait because someone thought it would be fun..?

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I queue up as a tank. I decide it'll be fun to go as a gladiator. I proceed to be kicked within 5 minutes of the dungeon starting.

Now lets say no one can get a friend to queue up. What happens then? wait god knows how long for a new tank, or back to the long as hell dps queues you go.

Why should I be forced to wait because someone thought it would be fun..?

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I'd say your specific point here with a tank is moot since you literally don't need a tank for any 4 man content if your healer and dps know how to dodge aoes and play efficiently. Hell just yesterday I queued in progress for Keeper of the Lake with two dps, one of whom was new and no tank. They were at the very start of the dungeon and we cleared it pretty fast with the new guy tanking practically the entire thing and we didn't wipe once. Bonus - he was a DRG. Don't really need a healer in most 4-man content either as long as at least one person has cure or physick cross-classed and the dps is high enough. People who insist upon waiting for a 4th person to join after someone leaves / gets kicked are holding themselves back. Not the person they chose to kick.


And really if the tank / healer / third dps isn't needed anyway why bother kicking them for playing on a class in the first place? Because you want to take a chance at getting someone who might be more efficient at their role? This is why I defend "lazy" play and "gimping" yourself. Because if they are actually contributing something to the party you have no one but yourself to blame when the run goes slower because your attitude towards them is bad or you kick them for their choice of playstyle. Can't wait till people follow your train of logic further down the tracks and start vote kicking people who's gear simply doesn't meet their standards.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I'd say your specific point here with a tank is moot since you literally don't need a tank for any 4 man content if your healer and dps know how to dodge aoes and play efficiently.

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1. You may not need a tank or a healer or even a fourth DPS at times if your party is competent. I know this. However to go into DF as a class just for the lols is rude. You simply cannot do the same damage as a class as you could a job.
2. It takes time to gear up. It takes almost no time at all once you hit 30 to get your job crystal. They are in no way at all similar.
3. Of course my attitude is going to be bad towards someone who is making stuff take even longer because they thought it was funny. Not even taking into consideration that they are effecting other people that didn't agree to it at all. Hell, I bet some people thought it was funny to run stuff with crafting/gathering gear on. Should I be ok with that too? of course I shouldn't, anyone with a brain would understand that.

I will admit though, I got a good laugh out of you trying to hide the fact your choose to gimp yourself by not equipping a job stone to someone who was still gearing up.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I'd say your specific point here with a tank is moot since you literally don't need a tank for any 4 man content...

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This is a failure of the system and depends on player skill and overgearing.
Don't think to use this as an apologize.

Just reduce the job stone to an equipable item. What will you say to a player who has no body armour or no accessoires? A job stone gives you not only extra stats like a normal equipable item it gives you depending on your level and quests done, exclusive skills.

So we should handle a player above level 30 without a job stone like a player with just the half of his gear equipped.

I don't know how much it would help, but maybe your new job trainer(s) could be introduced to you at the end of the class questline. Adjust it so the job quest flag isn't with the job trainer, but with the guildmaster. You accept his quest(s) and run off to the job trainer. You then see a red triangle above the job trainer's head. You talk to the trainer and get told that you must be at least level 30 MRD and 15 GLA to continue the quest.

That way it gets your attention right away when you complete your final class quest, and you're able to learn enough of what you should do to continue.

I'd rather it be until you reach lvl 30 in the MSQ and it gives you a quest to your new job trainer or at the end of your lvl 30 class quest it tells you on the map where to go find them and they'll tell you that the player needs to get their sub class as well. It's funny that we're talking about this because I had a lvl 42 gladiator in Stone Vigil this week and died so fast on the first and second pull that the healer just gave up and left.

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Originally Posted by Amelia_Pond_Behemoth

I don't know how much it would help, but maybe your new job trainer(s) could be introduced to you at the end of the class questline. Adjust it so the job quest flag isn't with the job trainer, but with the guildmaster.

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Uh, we have this already.
You finish the lv30 class quest and a new quest icon appears over the guildmaster. In that new quest you will meet your job teacher.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Uh, we have this already.
You finish the lv30 class quest and a new quest icon appears over the guildmaster. In that new quest you will meet your job teacher.

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Not for all classes mind you! I some cases it's the receptionist instead. (MNK and Scholar off the top of my head)

That's why I say: Put them "all" on the class trainer. And get rid of the sub-class requirement, because that way, it's available right when you hit 30, so it gets rid of the "Red quest" issue as well. Only way to "miss" them then is to not do the class quests at all.

Well I guess people can still role play a class and simply not use any of their "job" skills if they removed classes or locked classes out of 30+ content. Really no matter how much it may tick people off there is no way you can ever stop this short of perma banning people and good luck with that. Also to all these arguments saying it's rude and selfish etc. for people to gimp themselves like this, I just wanna say you come off at least equally as selfish in your complaints. It's always they are slowing down MY run, wasting MY time, ruining MY experience. It's MY sub and I shouldn't have to play with these bad players. So much Me Me Me

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Originally Posted by John_Henry

Well, maybe because most of the red quest you see while you do your leveling mean it's a crafting quest.

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Um... actually, most red quests you see while levelling mean you're not high enough (level-wise) to accept them. And if you click on them, you get the "accept quest" window, explaining what you need to unlock the quest.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

There's actually a fair deal of advantage going into some pvp modes as a base class, not a job.

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Really? I know this was true back at level 50, but with the new job abilities in heavensward I have trouble thinking of any class that would have a perk to it. The new abilities are just so good.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I would start with scratching the secondary class requirement for a job, then putting the job quest onto the class trainer so they can be picked up right as you finish your lvl 30 quest.

Should be enough, really. If there's still a large amount of newbies unable to find their way to a job, then you may consider locking MSQ or similar behind it.

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Problem with that though is those secondary jobs are actually kinda important. Black mages need raging strikes, scholars need to have protect and cleric stance, etc.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Problem with that though is those secondary jobs are actually kinda important. Black mages need raging strikes, scholars need to have protect and cleric stance, etc.

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I met a level 60 WAR in a mix of regular / upgraded Ironworks gear who didn't have GLD leveled high enough for Provoke and apparently got to the level cap in that gear set. Those secondary abilities are important, but bad players will find a way regardless.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Really? I know this was true back at level 50, but with the new job abilities in heavensward I have trouble thinking of any class that would have a perk to it. The new abilities are just so good.

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Well, there are still level 50 pvp things where you're synched down. But, since I don't do pvp, I have no idea how abandoned those pvp modes are or not.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Problem with that though is those secondary jobs are actually kinda important. Black mages need raging strikes, scholars need to have protect and cleric stance, etc.

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Well, just because you don't need another class to unlock the job doesn't mean crossclass skills won't be available from that class. But yeah, it'll mean people won't necessarily even notice there is such a thing as crossclass skills. I know it's a pain to figure out and/or remember which classes have the crossclass skills for the class/job I'm levelling if it's one I'm not familiar with already. (On alts, usually, because on my main I already have all the ARR classes unlocked so the skills menu gives me that information readily.)

When I meet people where the lack of crossclass skills is obvious (such as healers without swiftcast), I tend to suggest that they might want to level xxx class in order to get access to skills that will make their job a lot easier. Sometimes, they're all "yeah I knoooow, it's just such a pain to level something I'm not interested in", but many times they didn't even know that was a thing. ^^;
That's one thing I wish SE would make easier as well. For example by having the new job trainer mention that practising with xxx class really helped him become a better [whatever job s/he is]. Or through the game system itself somehow.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Really? I know this was true back at level 50, but with the new job abilities in heavensward I have trouble thinking of any class that would have a perk to it. The new abilities are just so good.

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They're also ignoring the flat damage bonuses they gave to jobs a while ago. There's absolutely not a case in pvp for anyone using a class now.

That being said, right @ 30 and for a bit there's a couple of jobs that actually do benefit from being a class rather than job. And those that don't have that luxury are at least close enough to full potential before 35 that if someone's competent with it I'd be fine with seeing the class in a dungeon @ 35. Granted someone else's post of a mrd35 not using overpower, that's more a problem with them not knowing how to tank, not that they were mrd. A MRD 35 (at least now) doesn't lose much of their damage stat, only vit, and gets access to invigorate, raging strikes, and can really hold their own vs a war35 of equal skill. Hell even @ 50 at one point lancer was only somethin like 3% dps lower than DRG, and CNJ was as good if not better than WHM in a certain garuda ex solo heal strat, relying on dps burst boosts to kill it before needing to hide in the shield.

Players really should be forced to change into a job or be barred from participating in any post-40 content at all, I would say. Especially since there somehow ARE players who are dumb enough to think that a lv60 lancer instead of dragoon is a good idea, as an example. Classes are a worthless relic, and if they don't remove them, at least don't make old players have to put up with the dregs the unwashed masses who don't understand the system.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Problem with that though is those secondary jobs are actually kinda important. Black mages need raging strikes, scholars need to have protect and cleric stance, etc.

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Swiftcast is a lvl 26 spell. Not within the lvl 15 range. Provoke comes at 22. Invigorate at 22, Blood for Blood at 34. DRGs don't get Internal Release on the way et cetera. White mages and Scholars don't need THM at all, surely Swiftcast is not important!

Just to name the typical must haves. The point falls flat because leveling these classes to 15 does not provide you with many if not most of the most important cross class skills.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Swiftcast is a lvl 26 spell. Not within the lvl 15 range. Provoke comes at 22. Invigorate at 22, Blood for Blood at 34. DRGs don't get Internal Release on the way et cetera. White mages and Scholars don't need THM at all, surely Swiftcast is not important!

Just to name the typical must haves. The point falls flat because leveling these classes to 15 does not provide you with many if not most of the most important cross class skills.

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Protect is a little more important than those skills. They are all must haves, but you won't get kicked from most pugs for not having them. No protect on scholar is kickable outside of very early dungeons.

Though I guess they could just make protect and cleric baseline for all healers.